kapkomet Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 This thread has more sidetracks and turns then most others around here. PA, I nowhere felt anyone was mocking you. This is very interesting because this qtr at our church we are discussing this at the base of our class. The cultish reference that you said FSJ, interesting because that is exactly how our preacher feels, and he was persectuted by the "church" for saying in front of elders, etc, that we should question EVERYTHING as a Christian because if we truely believe the Bible is the authority then we have nothing to be scared of. But yet... most folks in a "church" today are scared to question HOW we do things, ie worship, communion, what we talk about, how we pray, etc. If you can't talk about these things because they are "taboo", then yes, today's churches border on cults because now, you've gone completely away from the bible and the man made church with its man made customs that HAVE to be followed really are cultish in their ways. The bottom line of all the teachings of Christ and his apostles, it seems to me, is not making everything into some tradition and if the word of God is truely the authority, then no matter how one chooses to do it, be it writing, be it worshiping, be it conversing and/or converting folks in a "dying world" as some people put it, there's many ways to reach people to open their eyes to the so-called truth. It's up to each individual person to choose whether or not to accept what the bible says to be true. The holy spirit is here to help us should we choose to use it. We cannot do this alone, it takes a willing person, the holy spirit, God, and us, to really believe what we read in the bible for the "Great Commission" to happen IMO. I better get to work and quit rambling! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreye Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 The people who claim the name of Christ have commited any number of grievous sins against humanity (here's a trinity for you all: crusades, Inquistition, Holocaust) and have no room to address anyone on anything. For a group that persecuted people for believing the earth revolved around the sun or put people on trial for not beliving the historicity of Genesis or produce s&m gay porn and call it the Passion, we have no reason to think that we can converse in intellectual matters. Come off of it, cw. You make me sick. Just shameful, hateful and offensive. :headshake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 don't place your own agenda upon the message of Christ Cause you're the only one allowed to do so... Last time I checked the words in the Bible weren't written by anyone who was there.. no? So they pretty much had their own agenda.. no? I rarely get into these threads.. getting s*** on for having different views is pretty shallow and ignorant on the one beating their views, IMO... the Bible is to be intrepreted how one chooses to intrepretated. I doubt.. and this is just my opinion from the things I choose to believe.. God wouldn't expect everyone to have the same thoughts, and "judges" individualy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 Come off of it, cw. You make me sick. Just shameful, hateful and offensive. :headshake OK, I'm assuming that what got your knickers in such a twist was c-dub's description of The Passion as "s&m gay porn." It's a f***ing MOVIE. Get over it. If it was something else in that post that got you all riled up, I suggest you take a step back and go research what was said. C-dub has obtained more knowledge on the subject while sitting on the toilet, than you have in your entire life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 OK, I'm assuming that what got your knickers in such a twist was c-dub's description of The Passion as "s&m gay porn." It's a f***ing MOVIE. Get over it. To be honest with you Ghost.. I think his comment about the movie was pretty stupid as well. But hey.. opinions are like... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 To be honest with you Ghost.. I think his comment about the movie was pretty stupid as well. But hey.. opinions are like... But see, the difference is, you initially just shluffed it off, and went about your business. It may have been stupid, but please, it's a movie, and movie reviews are hardly "hateful" or "shameful" Eh, I was just stickin up for V-dog. A smarter man would have not said anything at all....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 But see, the difference is, you initially just shluffed it off, and went about your business. It may have been stupid, but please, it's a movie, and movie reviews are hardly "hateful" or "shameful" Eh, I was just stickin up for V-dog. A smarter man would have not said anything at all....... Sometimes ya just gotta ignore Vince.. he's a crazy man ya know.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 Come off of it, cw. You make me sick. Just shameful, hateful and offensive. :headshake if the cinema reference (as discussed by Steff and GOWT) were removed and replaced with the burning of "heretics" by all sides in the 1400s-1600s, which is to say Christians burning Chruistians who had differing theologies, woiuld that make it better? Actually it would, so consider that done. What is sickening, hateful, and offensive is the crimes committed by those who claim "Truth" and the denial of Christian responsibilty, guilt, and sin. And that is all of us for we cannot claim only a part of our Christian heritage and pretend the other did not happen. It is so easy to look at "radical Muslims" and accuse them of crimes, "radical Hindus" and accuse them of crimes (usually against Islmaic people) but to look at our own selves, look into our own Christian eyes - that seemingly offends. Log in our own eye, meet the speck in someone else's eye. When we study where we have gone wrong, then we can begin to make change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreye Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 OK, I'm assuming that what got your knickers in such a twist was c-dub's description of The Passion as "s&m gay porn." It's a f***ing MOVIE. Get over it. If it was something else in that post that got you all riled up, I suggest you take a step back and go research what was said. C-dub has obtained more knowledge on the subject while sitting on the toilet, than you have in your entire life. And you know me? Kiss off! I know my history. I know what injustices were done. CW implied that followers of Christ "have no room to address anyone on anything." It makes me sick how he continually attacks in his posts and it's taken for "knowledge" and everyone here bows down to him. I'm tired of it and I know I'm not the only one who is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 And you know me? Kiss off! I know my history. I know what injustices were done. CW implied that followers of Christ "have no room to address anyone on anything." It makes me sick how he continually attacks in his posts and it's taken for "knowledge" and everyone here bows down to him. I'm tired of it and I know I'm not the only one who is. Eye.. it's much easier to just ignore what one sees as bulls*** than to make a big deal out of it. Did ya notice my posting decrease lately.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 if the cinema reference (as discussed by Steff and GOWT) were removed and replaced with the burning of "heretics" by all sides in the 1400s-1600s, which is to say Christians burning Chruistians who had differing theologies, woiuld that make it better? Actually it would, so consider that done. What is sickening, hateful, and offensive is the crimes committed by those who claim "Truth" and the denial of Christian responsibilty, guilt, and sin. And that is all of us for we cannot claim only a part of our Christian heritage and pretend the other did not happen. It is so easy to look at "radical Muslims" and accuse them of crimes, "radical Hindus" and accuse them of crimes (usually against Islmaic people) but to look at our own selves, look into our own Christian eyes - that seemingly offends. Log in our own eye, meet the speck in someone else's eye. When we study where we have gone wrong, then we can begin to make change. I don't think anyone ever said anything about not knowing our history and where we came from. I would be willing to bet that most of our ancestors in this country participated in one of these "so called hyretical" events. So are we all condemned for it? No, because we as our own person can learn from the past. So why can't we ALL learn from it? Why are we all now not authorities to speak on anything now? That's when I tend to start disagreeing with cdub as well... because it's at those times that it seems like there can be differing views on something and we all can be right in their own way... depending on interpretation. 'Cuse me while I go sit on the toilet to become educated... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreye Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 Eye.. it's much easier to just ignore what one sees as bulls*** than to make a big deal out of it. Did ya notice my posting decrease lately.. I've ignore it too long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 What is sickening, hateful, and offensive is the crimes committed by those who claim "Truth" and the denial of Christian responsibilty, guilt, and sin. And that is all of us for we cannot claim only a part of our Christian heritage and pretend the other did not happen. It is so easy to look at "radical Muslims" and accuse them of crimes, "radical Hindus" and accuse them of crimes (usually against Islmaic people) but to look at our own selves, look into our own Christian eyes - that seemingly offends. Log in our own eye, meet the speck in someone else's eye. When we study where we have gone wrong, then we can begin to make change. Well hell.. I didn't know you were there and saw all these things with your own 2 eyes... C'mon Vince.. people believe what they want. Don't like it, so be it. But to give them s*** about it..? Makes you no better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 OK, I'll take a deep breath then... Christians have comitted some of the worst atrocities in human history in the name of some perversion of faith. Of course they are not alone in this, but they lead the hit parade, particularly when it is realized that all the "conversion by the sword" attributed to early Islam never really happened despite what we were all taught. A wise man suggested that "God is a concept by which we measure our pain" (guesses anyone?). But for so much of human history, man's perversions of the will of God has also been the measure of how we mete out pain upon one another. Select bad people yes, and certainly the majority of Christians are truly good people, as are the majority of Muslums, Hindus, Jews, mimes (maybe), etc. But, the refusal of the major faiths of the world to say, sonovab****, if all this crap has been done in the name of religous ideology then maybe religion has done more harm in the world than good? In a nutshell, that's the story of my departure from this circus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreye Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 OK, I'll take a deep breath then... Christians have comitted some of the worst atrocities in human history in the name of some perversion of faith. Of course they are not alone in this, but they lead the hit parade, particularly when it is realized that all the "conversion by the sword" attributed to early Islam never really happened despite what we were all taught. A wise man suggested that "God is a concept by which we measure our pain" (guesses anyone?). But for so much of human history, man's perversions of the will of God has also been the measure of how we mete out pain upon one another. Select bad people yes, and certainly the majority of Christians are truly good people, as are the majority of Muslums, Hindus, Jews, mimes (maybe), etc. But, the refusal of the major faiths of the world to say, sonovab****, if all this crap has been done in the name of religous ideology then maybe religion has done more harm in the world than good? In a nutshell, that's the story of my departure from this circus. Well done. I can accept that. You didn't have to attack anyone's faith or lack of knowledge while doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 OK, I'll take a deep breath then... Christians have comitted some of the worst atrocities in human history in the name of some perversion of faith. Of course they are not alone in this, but they lead the hit parade, particularly when it is realized that all the "conversion by the sword" attributed to early Islam never really happened despite what we were all taught. A wise man suggested that "God is a concept by which we measure our pain" (guesses anyone?). But for so much of human history, man's perversions of the will of God has also been the measure of how we mete out pain upon one another. Select bad people yes, and certainly the majority of Christians are truly good people, as are the majority of Muslums, Hindus, Jews, mimes (maybe), etc. But, the refusal of the major faiths of the world to say, sonovab****, if all this crap has been done in the name of religous ideology then maybe religion has done more harm in the world than good? In a nutshell, that's the story of my departure from this circus. Bingo. That's why RELIGION (Man-made) is NOT what we should be doing things in the name of. That's the entire point. So to rip folks for "hyretical" things of today's world and tell them they have no right to speak, is a little far fetched when we are all descendants of these so called fanaticals. I only hope we are a little smarter then they were because they showed us what's wrong. IMO, mental anguish is just as bad as the physical abuses the "crusaders" put people through - and that's what happens now moreso then physical torture. I think even FSJ alluded to it when he implies "recovering spiritual person" - not trying to put words in your mouth - but it would seem you wanted off the circus train called religion, not faith itself. And I agree with you if that is what you were trying to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 Steff, as the Guess Who said, "these eyes have seen a lot of things..." Steff, actually not intending to give anyone s*** about anything. We in the Church have no room to talk because when we do, our entire Christian heritage is spoken with every word we say. That is why the conversation with those outside the Church so seldom goers the way the believer wants it to. The believer says, "look at how much Christ means to me, you should believe too." The person outside the faith community says, "looking at everything Christianity has meant, no way." The believer says, "but look what it means to me." The person outside the faith community says, "look what it has meant to others. No way." To truly be evangelical, as I understand it, is to really understand what is seen and heard by others when we speak. That is where the conversation in so much of this thread, which I stayed out of for the longest time, was people not connecting. Trying to build some bridges... provide some context... praise someone where they said something really great with incredibly excellent phrasing... easily admit that an editing correction needed to be made in my post after suggestions from others and my changing it... it is never enough, Steff. Unless one believes like others, they will attack. The number of religious put downs and holier than thou statements made through out this thread are astounding. It makes me glad that I am alrfeady a Christian for I find very little that would convince me in the wounded aggression of others. There are those to wish to continue in a tautology where the fiction is that they have transcended what continues today. So, Steff, in the last analysis, you are absolutely right that it does no good to say anything. Steff: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 That's when I tend to start disagreeing with cdub as well... because it's at those times that it seems like there can be differing views on something and we all can be right in their own way... depending on interpretation. Are we all reading the same thread? CW is the one upholding that these different views are welcomed, encouraged, and actually required for true understanding of the totality of the message to occur. A large portion of his single substantive post in this thread said precicely that. Elsewhere it is he who reminds us all of the many rooms in God's House, and suggests a lot of folks are going to be surprised at the "riff raff" in the room next door. CW, knowing better, stayed well away from this for how many days? Everyone can say what they want, but there is noone else here with the scriptural scholarship (and not the "Bible Bowl" variety) pedigree the man has. That, combined with a deep-held love of justice and willingness to fight for it is a powerful arsenal in these debates and in religiuos life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreye Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 Trying to build some bridges... provide some context... praise someone where they said something really great with incredibly excellent phrasing... easily admit that an editing correction needed to be made in my post after suggestions from others and my changing it... it is never enough, Steff. Unless one believes like others, they will attack. The number of religious put downs and holier than thou statements made through out this thread are astounding. It makes me glad that I am alrfeady a Christian for I find very little that would convince me in the wounded aggression of others. There are those to wish to continue in a tautology where the fiction is that they have transcended what continues today. So, Steff, in the last analysis, you are absolutely right that it does no good to say anything. Steff: You build funny bridges and accuse others of what you in fact did yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 The believer says, "look at how much Christ means to me, you should believe too." The person outside the faith community says, "looking at everything Christianity has meant, no way." The believer says, "but look what it means to me." The person outside the faith community says, "look what it has meant to others. No way." You forgot the last part, where the believer says "then enjoy Hell, Sinner!" Seriously, that hypothetical dialog is a brilliant crystallization of the whole thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 And then we can see that when we cannot defend the indefensible, we are freed up by God's grace the see the Truth that is shielded from the religious but visible to the ones who question every detail. When one cannot buy any of it one is freed to look again as if for the first ime and see something wholly new and that is the image of God reflected in the fiercist skeptic who has given us the prism to see that which we cnanot behold: that we begin in recognizing our own weaknesses and need to hear the voice of God in all who speak, especially ones who see through our religious verbiage and say get real. Getting real indeed. Thank you to those who do not accept. Blessed are those who see the holes in our platitudes for it is in dialogue with them we think not as people of religious conviction but as those who seek to be open to the very things that blow us away and show us that God indeed does a new thing, teaching us to look beyond our comfort zone, do we not perceive it? At the heart of cdub message was this, and I think it nails it. I am guilty of taking what was said out of contect and when I went and re-read, I agree I was mistaken, Jim. I do think there are a couple of elements, though, that can be interpreted as sort of vengeful that cdub said regarding the trilogy of evil. But again, it's all in context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox4lifeinPA Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 This thread has more sidetracks and turns then most others around here. PA, I nowhere felt anyone was mocking you. This is very interesting because this qtr at our church we are discussing this at the base of our class. The cultish reference that you said FSJ, interesting because that is exactly how our preacher feels, and he was persectuted by the "church" for saying in front of elders, etc, that we should question EVERYTHING as a Christian because if we truely believe the Bible is the authority then we have nothing to be scared of. But yet... most folks in a "church" today are scared to question HOW we do things, ie worship, communion, what we talk about, how we pray, etc. If you can't talk about these things because they are "taboo", then yes, today's churches border on cults because now, you've gone completely away from the bible and the man made church with its man made customs that HAVE to be followed really are cultish in their ways. The bottom line of all the teachings of Christ and his apostles, it seems to me, is not making everything into some tradition and if the word of God is truely the authority, then no matter how one chooses to do it, be it writing, be it worshiping, be it conversing and/or converting folks in a "dying world" as some people put it, there's many ways to reach people to open their eyes to the so-called truth. It's up to each individual person to choose whether or not to accept what the bible says to be true. The holy spirit is here to help us should we choose to use it. We cannot do this alone, it takes a willing person, the holy spirit, God, and us, to really believe what we read in the bible for the "Great Commission" to happen IMO. I better get to work and quit rambling! kap, you and I would be friends... my only thing to add, is that the SPIRIT is THE authority not the bible. The bible is AN authority and a witness from the early church, although it is SPIRIT filled, so that's why I hold so much faith in it...just not ALL of my faith. I think we neglect the holy spirit more than anything these days. maybe it's just me. RE: being mocked.... I know I'm not the only one that feels the way I do about church, faith, etc... having 3-4 people dogging on me through out 10+ pages of threads isn't an easy task, so forgive me if I have "short guy" syndrome. (I'm actually 6'3" ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 29, 2004 Author Share Posted April 29, 2004 All right here is the deal. Steff-Alex let it go. I am going to reopen this thread, because there is a lot of good stuff in it, and I think it should go on. If guys want to argue, please keep it PMs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 kap, you and I would be friends... my only thing to add, is that the SPIRIT is THE authority not the bible. The bible is AN authority and a witness from the early church, although it is SPIRIT filled, so that's why I hold so much faith in it...just not ALL of my faith. I think we neglect the holy spirit more than anything these days. maybe it's just me. RE: being mocked.... I know I'm not the only one that feels the way I do about church, faith, etc... having 3-4 people dogging on me through out 10+ pages of threads isn't an easy task, so forgive me if I have "short guy" syndrome. (I'm actually 6'3" ) Sure, it's natural to feel under the gun when different people seem to gang up on you over certain things. You either keep trying to have civil dialog (which I think you have reasonably done), you decide to stop the discussion, or you can go the inflamatory invective route - a little thing we like to call "going all Izzy4E" around here. But the CW bit you posted in your response where you claimed you felt mocked was JUST his compliment to you on your being "missional" versus "missions" post, and I didn't get it at all from that perspective. (And for that matter, I admit the nuance was lost on me at first but I get what you were saying - and I suspect "missional" is a made up word). If you ever sence any derision or mockery of "sacred" things in my writing, you're probably not far off the mark but it is usually the institutions or or tenet or their hypocracy that is the target for me. I don't care to personally attack anyone but I like to question beliefs I think are odd or at odds with other internal or external beliefs. I staunchly defend the rights of all to practice religion (or not) as they see fit, SO LONG as it does not impinge on the rights of others to do the same. That is what causes conflict for me and puts me at odds with Evangelical or missionary Christianity. "Going forth and preaching to all nations" does impact the way others pursue their spirituality, and at the same it is at the heart of some valid mainstream Christian movements so there is a difficult dilemma here. Lots of people think the Evangelicals should mind ther own business and worry about their own salvation, find the self-righteousness to be tiresome, and think Christian missionaries have been nailing lifts onto the feet of the natives for far too long. At the same time, the Great Commission is central to Evangelical/missionary Christian traditions, and the call is pretty much there in black and white in the Gospels. So there you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 Alex and Steff need to have a jello wrestling match to settle this once and for all. I am now accepting donations to cover Alex's airfare. Steff will be kidnapped from work when she least expects it. Cmon, whattya say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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