2004 SOX Evaluation

[cwsox]

Okay.  Whatever works.  Just so long as the one thread is named

"2004 SOX Evalution Commentary & Challenges".

 

That's all I ask.

which one - this or the other?

[JUGGERNAUT]

which one - this or the other?

This one will be renamed "2004 SOX Evaluation Commentary & Challenges".

 

These 2 will be deleted:

http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=18308&hl=

http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=18319&hl=

[JUGGERNAUT]

I'll periodically update this thread with the link to the monthly scoring thread.

April:

http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=17449&hl=

May:

http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=18212&hl=

[JUGGERNAUT]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/alb04.htm

ALC RPG & NPERA :

 

A 2 Thomas, Frank CHW R 9.63

A 4 Belliard, Ron CLE R 9.14

A 8 Beltran, Carlos KC B 8.55

A 11 Uribe, Juan CHW R 7.93

A 12 Rodriguez, Ivan DET R 7.93

A 14 White, Rondell DET R 7.76

A 18 Guillen, Carlos DET B 7.36

A 19 Ford, Lew MIN R 7.34

A 26 Gerut, Jody CLE L 6.84

A 28 Jones, Jacque MIN L 6.78

A 30 Ordonez, Magglio CHW R 6.54

A 33 Stewart, Shannon MIN R 6.25

A 34 Hafner, Travis CLE L 6.24

A 35 Harvey, Ken KC R 6.21

A 36 Lawton, Matt CLE L 6.16

A 44 Sweeney, Mike KC R 5.61

A 45 Martinez, Victor CLE B 5.65

A 48 Vizquel, Omar CLE B 5.52

A 51 Koskie, Corey MIN L 5.33

A 54 Guzman, Cristian MIN B 5.19

A 56 Sanchez, Alex DET L 5.02

A 58 Harris, Willie CHW L 4.94

A 59 Lee, Carlos CHW R 4.93

A 60 Konerko, Paul CHW R 4.89

A 64 Blake, Casey CLE R 4.76

A 65 Randa, Joe KC R 4.71

A 67 Gonzalez, Juan KC R 4.61

A 68 Higginson, Bobby DET L 4.61

A 71 Mientkiewicz, Doug MIN L 4.59

A 73 Pena, Carlos DET L 4.44

A 82 Crede, Joe CHW R 3.96

A 92 Vina, Fernando DET L 3.07

A 93 Monroe, Craig DET R 2.86

 

EVERYDAY bats: MIN > CLE > CHW > DET > KC

 

B 10 Inge, Brandon DET R 6.33

B 13 Stairs, Matt KC L 6.07

B 14 Olivo, Miguel CHW R 6.05

B 15 Valentin, Jose CHW B 5.88

B 17 Broussard, Ben CLE L 5.63

B 19 Infante, Omar DET R 5.60

B 21 Offerman, Jose MIN B 5.48

B 26 Ryan, Michael MIN L 5.25

B 28 Graffanino, Tony KC R 5.07

B 30 Punto, Nick MIN B 4.89

B 32 Hunter, Torii MIN R 4.85

B 36 Escobar, Alex CLE R 4.35

B 38 Rowand, Aaron CHW R 4.17

B 40 Laker, Tim CLE R 3.98

B 41 Alomar, Sandy Jr. CHW R 3.97

B 42 Guiel, Aaron KC L 3.85

B 45 Blanco, Henry MIN R 3.79

B 46 Cuddyer, Michael MIN R 3.75

B 47 Rivas, Luis MIN R 3.59

B 48 Gload, Ross CHW L 3.58

B 49 Munson, Eric DET L 3.57

B 52 Santiago, Benito KC R 3.43

B 55 Perez, Timo CHW L 3.35

B 57 Merloni, Lou CLE R 3.15

B 61 Crisp, Coco CLE B 2.51

B 63 Relaford, Desi KC B 2.39

B 67 Berroa, Angel KC R 2.01

B 68 Norton, Greg DET B 2.00

 

RESERVE bats: MIN > DET > CHW > CLE > KC (incl short-term DL players)

 

C 1 Mauer, Joe MIN L 94.28

C 2 Young, Dmitri DET B 19.56

C 6 Stinnett, Kelly KC R 9.04

C 7 Burke, Jamie CHW R 8.22

C 11 Bowen, Rob MIN B 4.82

C 13 Blanco, Andres KC B 3.85

C 16 Dransfeldt, Kelly CHW R 3.51

C 19 LeCroy, Matthew MIN R 2.88

C 21 Shelton, Chris DET R 2.84

C 24 McDonald, John CLE R 2.22

C 25 Lopez, Mendy KC R 2.09

C 36 DeJesus, David KC L .53

 

PINCH bats: MIN > KC > CHW > DET > CLE (incl long-term DL players)

 

OVERALL bats: MIN > CHW > CLE > DET > KC

[JUGGERNAUT]

I'll periodically update this thread with the link to the monthly scoring thread.

April:

http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=17449&hl=

May:

http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=18212&hl=

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/alp04.htm

ALC NPERA:

A 5 Sabathia, C.C. CLE L 2.81

A 8 Schoeneweis, Scott CHW L 3.04

A 13 Silva, Carlos MIN R 3.28

A 16 Lee, Cliff CLE L 3.49

A 21 Loaiza, Esteban CHW R 3.62

A 22 Maroth, Mike DET L 3.68

A 23 Radke, Brad MIN R 3.75

A 24 Santana, Johan MIN L 3.76

A 25 Gobble, Jimmy KC L 3.80

A 27 Garland, Jon CHW R 3.88

A 28 Robertson, Nate DET L 3.89

A 32 Buehrle, Mark CHW L 4.02

A 33 Bonderman, Jeremy DET R 4.03

A 39 Davis, Jason CLE R 4.66

A 44 Affeldt, Jeremy KC L 5.15

A 46 Johnson, Jason DET R 5.28

A 48 Lohse, Kyle MIN R 5.63

A 50 Anderson, Brian KC L 6.60

 

ROTATION arms: CLE > CHW > MIN > DET > KC

 

B 8 Fultz, Aaron MIN L 1.41

B 11 Walker, Jamie DET L 1.64

B 14 Field, Nate KC R 1.77

B 16 Takatsu, Shingo CHW R 1.80

B 20 Cotts, Neal CHW L 2.00

B 23 Nathan, Joe MIN R 2.25

B 25 Westbrook, Jake CLE R 2.38

B 29 Miller, Justin TOR R 2.76

B 30 Urbina, Ugueth DET R 2.79

B 31 Grimsley, Jason KC R 2.79

B 36 Jackson, Mike CHW R 2.95

B 38 Reyes, Dennys KC L 3.05

B 40 Rincon, Juan MIN R 3.04

B 43 Koch, Billy CHW R 3.15

B 44 Mulholland, Terry MIN L 3.18

B 45 Camp, Shawn KC R 3.24

B 49 Romero, J.C. MIN L 3.32

B 53 Sullivan, Scott KC R 3.62

B 54 Stanford, Jason CLE L 3.62

B 56 Marte, Damaso CHW L 3.73

B 60 Adkins, Jon CHW R 3.86

B 61 Knotts, Gary DET R 3.93

B 68 Roa, Joe MIN R 4.18

B 70 Betancourt, Rafael CLE R 4.31

B 71 Yan, Esteban DET R 4.34

B 72 Patterson, Danny DET R 4.65

B 78 Colyer, Steve DET L 5.12

B 82 Pulido, Carlos MIN L 5.39

B 83 D'Amico, Jeff C. CLE R 5.42

B 84 May, Darrell KC L 5.73

B 85 Greisinger, Seth MIN R 5.78

B 86 Stewart, Scott CLE L 5.89

B 87 Levine, Al DET R 6.19

B 89 Cressend, Jack CLE R 6.24

B 90 Wright, Dan CHW R 6.65

B 96 Durbin, Chad CLE R 7.20

B 97 Cornejo, Nate DET R 7.28

B 99 Riske, David CLE R 8.38

 

RELIEF arms: MIN > CHW > KC > DET > CLE (incl failed starters)

 

C 1 Huisman, Justin KC R .27

C 9 Cerda, Jaime KC L 3.35

C 10 Jimenez, Jose CLE R 3.38

C 15 White, Rick CLE R 3.89

C 16 Carrasco, D.J. KC R 4.45

C 19 Robertson, Jeriome CLE L 4.74

C 24 Politte, Cliff CHW R 5.90

C 26 Lee, Dave CLE R 6.97

C 27 Appier, Kevin KC R 7.02

C 28 Leskanic, Curtis KC R 7.25

C 32 Laker, Tim CLE R 7.53

C 34 Tadano, Kazuhito CLE R 8.16

C 36 Diaz, Felix CHW R 8.46

C 39 Villacis, Eduardo KC R 9.46

C 43 MacDougal, Mike KC R 12.07

C 44 Dingman, Craig DET R 12.49

C 47 Anderson, Jason CLE R 16.42

 

SHORT RELIEF arms: KC > CLE > CHW > DET > MIN (incl arms on DL)

 

oVERALL arms: CHW > MIN > CLE > KC > DET

[JUGGERNAUT]

May 18, 2004: Randy Johson throws a 2-0 victory perfect game. One of 17 players

all time to do so. One of only 4 players to throw a no-hitter in both leagues.

http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=19111&hl=

 

May 17th GOG challenge:

Lee & Rowand had no more than 2 outs each in the game.

None of their plays were noteworthy.

 

If not Uribe, then it's between Crede & Koney.

Crede had more POs but Koney was involved in a DP.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Crede had the ball stuck in his glove. That's an error even if the official scorers are too clueless to count it as such.    Kong was pulled off the bag by Uribe, he had a split second to recover and didn't.

 

The only two people who didn't give Indians an extra out in Monday's game were Rowand and Lee. Yes, it sucks when players get a default GoG, but it happened in the past (Crede and Olivo), so this one shouldn't be different. Rowand had a semi-nice play, so he'll be my recommendation.

 

If you want to give it to Kong or Lee,  knock yourself out.

Let's give it to Koney then. Lee & Rowand are simply not deserving of even a default GoG in this game. They did not make a play on a ball until the 5th inning & we're both replaced in the 8th. They both made 2 & only 2 POs.

 

Koney may have been pulled off the bag but there's no question he was on the receiving end of more outs than any other player. I saw some of the highlights & I can't stand it when balls bounce right in front of OFers. That pisses me off to no end because that means just a few steps quicker reaction time & that's an out. Now either they are too slow to react or they were too slow to react at that time. That's what separates the gold gloves from the average players.

[BrandoFan]

Let's give it to Koney then

 

Works for me. I initially had Uribe as GoG for both Cle games, but then remembered the bad DP throw -- and unlike official scorers I can and I DO assume a double-play.

[YASNY]

Works for me. I initially had Uribe as GoG for both Cle games, but then remembered the bad DP throw -- and unlike official scorers I can and I DO assume a double-play.  

That's heresey! (sp?)

[BrandoFan]

That's heresey! (sp?)

No, it's not.

 

Unless it's a slow chopper and/or you got Ichiro running....you better turn that DP or make that tough force-out at 2nd instead of an easy one at 1st, etc.

 

Example: Vizquel had his 3rd botched DP in like last week alone, whether because he has a weak arm or is just too stylish/non-chalant for his own good. That's 3 outs unaccounted for. 3 errors, in effect.

 

If it was up to me, standards for fielding would go up as to reward big-range, big-armed, aggressive-but-also-error-prone SS.

 

Otherwise, the way things are right now....stylish, conservative soft-tossers get too much credit for making less errors even though their total defensive contribution may not be that much better -- if at all -- when all the plays over 150+ games are tallied up.

[YASNY]

I meant to change that to green, but then got hung up on the spelling and neglected to do so. Sorry to have made you type all that unnecessarily.

[JUGGERNAUT]

May Indiv Game Honors:

PoG: MB(3), EL(2), JG(2), SS(2), FT(2), MO(1), JU(1), MOL(1), PK(1), RG(1), CL(1), MJ(1),

 

AoG: SS(3), EL(3), MB(3), JG(3), DM(2), NC(1), ST(1), CP(1), MJ(1),

BoG: FT(4), JV(3), CL(2), MO(2), PK(2), JU(1), MOL(1), SA(1), AR(1), RG(1),

GoG: JU(6), PK(3), WH(2), AR(2), JC(1), CL(1), EL(1), MOL(1), JV(1)

 

Comments:

Thank you KW for locking up MB & changing his disposition to one of sweetness towards the SOX. Here's to hoping MB & the SOX have a long history together.

 

Thank you KW for locking FT up to a reasonable contract for a few more yrs. Frank is instrumental to this team's success year after year & even at 8 MIL for 2K5 he's a goody buy. I don't see him leaving because he still has 13 MIL guaranteed after that even if the SOX buy out the remaining year.

 

Thank you KW for retaining Valentin. I think most fans want him back.

Thank you KW for securing Loaiza. At 4 MIL a yr even w his drop off he's still a bargain.

Thank you KW for securing Schow. I like you believed in this guy all along.

But he is still injury prone in his career so let's keep crossing our fingers.

 

Most of all thank you for Juan Uribe. What an incredible surprise!

 

As for Maggs, he's producing slightly better than Carlos which puts his price at 10 MIL a yr tops. He's now in his 2nd yr of decline after putting up MVP #'s in 2K2. If he thinks someone wants to pay him better than 50/5 at this juncture let him go.

[BrandoFan]

If he thinks someone wants to pay him better than 50/5 at this juncture let him go

.

 

I guarantee you that Chicago Cubs would pay him 5/51 tomorrow.

 

A devastating PR gut punch to the entire Soxdom and getting an All-Star RF'er as Alou's replacement? Killing two birds with one stone.

 

I've always thought 5/75 was lunacy, but if Beltin' Beltran gets 8/140, Magglio has a case for 5/75 - and Sox can't begin to pay it even if they were to win the World Series this year.

 

But 5/50 he will get in his sleep - he already got a 3/30 once, remember?

[JUGGERNAUT]

.

 

I guarantee you that Chicago Cubs would pay him 5/51 tomorrow. 

 

A devastating PR gut punch to the entire Soxdom and getting an All-Star RF'er as Alou's replacement? Killing two birds with one stone.

 

I've always thought 5/75 was lunacy, but if Beltin' Beltran gets 8/140, Magglio has a case for 5/75 - and Sox can't begin to pay it even if they were to win the World Series this year.

 

But 5/50 he will get in his sleep - he already got a 3/30 once, remember?

As much as I don't want to admit it you have a good point. Because of the Cubune we may have to overpay for Maggs simply to save face in the PR war. The SOX would be ok to lose him, but not to the Chubs. Any other signing would pale in comparison to that news.

 

I was already upset after Monday's short-sightedness by the Cubune. They gave the Chubs twice as much space on the front page, 5 times as much space inside. The only thing that was even were the Box score columns.

 

But then I thought about it. Kenny will not let him go for nothing. That's not the Kenny way. If he doesn't think he's signable he'll work a deal to get an Everett type player in exchange for Maggs for the stretch drive. That trade would be dependant on the other team's ability to sign him. It won't be the Chubs.

 

Last I read, KW offered 58/4 = (14.5/yr). I think 65/5 is the max the SOX will go.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Indiv Game Honors for May:

http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=18212&hl=

[JUGGERNAUT]

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/mlb/mlbrumors.html

 

Interesting link on all the WHITE SOX trade rumors.

 

It's interesting when you read which part of the Newsday rumor Maggs has denied.

Newsday said that Maggs rejected a 70 mil offer. KW has declined to comment.

Maggs says the report is a lie but the only reference he makes to the report in that respect is the fact that he said he wants to play for the Mets.

[JUGGERNAUT]

As an avid SOX fan it's hard to do the evaluations when they play so poorly.

I still have no idea why KW continues to keep Politte & Jackson on the team.

Koch makes them look good.

 

The nice thing about the evaluation system is that it makes use of the game log data so I can do it any time. When they place this bad, this is the last place I want to be.

I am surrounded by cub fans so this because my slient period of the season. :puke

[BrandoFan]

I've decided to end the current system of SOX evaluation at the all-star break.

The reason being is that it's too much work for too little gain.

I think Sox evaluation is pretty damn valuable - I know I use it to check stuff

and it will become even more usefull in the off-season when all the debates are raging because all this stuff won't be fresh in the memory anymore.

 

Even if you discontinue it after the ASB, you did a great job Juggs.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I think Sox evaluation is pretty damn valuable - I know I use it to check stuff

and it will become even more usefull in the off-season when all the debates are raging because all this stuff won't be fresh in the memory anymore. 

 

Even if you discontinue it after the ASB, you did a great job Juggs. 

I'll stick with the current scoring system in the 2nd half.

It takes more time & effort to tabulate +/- so it's not worth it.

 

But I'm not ignoring negative play altogether.

Jon Garland blew his chance for a win in that Marlin game & that one play cost him the Arm of the Game. It was pitching a nice ball game up to that point & even though his 27 score over 7 ip, is worthy of an AoG he lost it on that play.

 

I'm going to do the same thing for hitters as well. If you make bone-head dumb F

errors in the field that cost the team runs & leads I don't care if you score 200 pts

in a night you are going to lose the award!

[BrandoFan]

I'll stick with the current scoring system in the 2nd half.

It takes more time & effort to tabulate +/- so it's not worth it.

 

But I'm not ignoring negative play altogether.

Jon Garland blew his chance for a win in that Marlin game & that one play cost him the Arm of the Game.  It was pitching a nice ball game up to that point & even though his 27 score over 7 ip, is worthy of an AoG he lost it on that play.

 

I'm going to do the same thing for hitters as well.  If you make bone-head dumb F

errors in the field that cost the team runs & leads I don't care if you score 200 pts

in a night you are going to lose the award!

The thing about it, is that you can do games with a long delay cuz it won't matter much as long as at the end of the season all 162 games are done. Glove of Game's are the only ones that have to be upgated sooner since they have to be decided from memory and not from logs -- although if no special defensive play took place, then it's ok to use Logs to see who had the most chances or had made the most IMPORTANT (say with bases loaded) play and thus deserving of a Default GoG, which has happened at least 7-8 times this year.

 

I think you still have to keep things in perspective. If a fielder "causes" 2 unearned to score but then hits a grand slam and edges people out by a big margin in points, you simply cannot take away BoG and/or PoG of the game in good conscience because that player's "+/-" is still better than everyone else.

 

But if the player only leads by a few points but also had a stupid baserunning/fielding play, then, yes, it has to be counted against him - if your error leads to an unearned run, then your RBI single is taken away from you; if you allowed a pop up to fall in because you were lazily drifting with it and that led to 3 runs scoring, then your bases clearing double (if in fact you have it!) should be stripped from you. Etc.

 

The system has to remain flexible and not be driven by emotions.

[JUGGERNAUT]

For those who don't know Scott Schoenweis has gone on the 15-day DL with inflamation of the elbow. This was always the risk with both E-LO & SS given their history. That will effectively push SS into the 2nd 1/2 for the next start.

 

Hopefully Diaz can hold down the fort until then.

 

Cotts is pitching well, & Vic D made a couple of appearances of late. He cost the SOX 1.4 mil so hopefully he can fill Wunsh's shoes.

 

Jamie Burke has been a nice breathe of fresh air. I'm glad the Koch trade afforded us to keep in on.

 

SOMEONE PLEASE TEACH THESE BAFFOONS HOW TO CALL FOR THE BALL !!!

 

Dump :puke Jackson at the Amtrak station. Please.