America's Culture War

[Queen Prawn]

He resembles Homer Simpson, but with a weird nose, weird eyes, and deformed teeth.

LMAO! I've never heard anyone say that about Lon's 'Phantom' - thank you so much for the laugh - after today, I really needed one!

[1549]

Lon Chaney is his 'Phantom of the Opera' makeup.  I have a couple, but for some reason, this one makes me laugh so I am using that one for now.

Was Lon Chaney, walking with the queen in that song wherewolves of London?

[Queen Prawn]

Was Lon Chaney, walking with the queen in that song wherewolves of London?

Him or his kid (Lon Chaney Jr. - better known as 'Wolfman'). I can never keep it straight. Good song though.

[JUGGERNAUT]

10 to 1 this thread gets closed soon....

 

Why would you close a thread that is for the most part profanity free & is simply debating S,L, & P in an SLP forum? If you do then it's a clear sign of censorship & a form of reliigous persecution. I just want to make that known.

 

God forbid if prayer in schools might lead to :

 

I assume you are just trying to be funny, because comparing a few people to 3 billion educated over the last 30 yrs is pretty lame.

 

4) Is a clear lie. Again do a search on Google on "Christians teaching Muslims" to learn.

5) Has nothing to do with schools.

6) The Inquistion & last Crusade occured nearly 400 yrs ago. Get over it you look nuts to bring it up in 2004. Likewise if you bothered to study either they are much more so cases of Politicians using religion as a tool to enact their ideology than the other way around. Which is exactly the purpose of the separation of Church & State: to prevent the State from using religion as a tool in that context.

 

7) Hitler killed many Catholics & Christians that tried to protect the Jews as well. To even mention prayer as a catalyst to the Holocaust is beyond dumb.

[1549]

LMAO!  I've never heard anyone say that about Lon's 'Phantom' - thank you so much for the laugh - after today, I really needed one!   

anytime...

 

I have to say though, I miss seeing the hamster...that little guy was awesome.

[Queen Prawn]

anytime...

 

I have to say though, I miss seeing the hamster...that little guy was awesome.

Thanks! He's still in the pet picture page. I have to get a picture of the new hamster up soon.

[Wong & Owens]

Separation of Church & State: what does it mean?

 

It does not mean the State can not HELP assist any institution that has an affiliation with a Church.  There is NOT one WORD in the Constitution that either states or implies this.

 

What it means is that the State can NOT ACKNOWLEDGE any Church ruling, provision, etc. as a formal ruling of the State.  The purpose of this separation was to PREVENT the emergence of what had taken place in Europe up to that time.  It was to prohibit FORCED acceptance of state ruling on the basis of their religious affiliation.  An abuse that was common in Europe at the time.

 

Do you realize how your points are defeating themselves?

First you say that segregation should be allowed in all fairness but then you want to deny it on your belief that a God based school deserves special prohibition over any other idealogical school?

 

And then on top of that you have the nerve to associate my words to those of Hitlers.

Do you know how utterly stupid that is?  I will give you an example:

If Juggernaut were leader of Germany in the 1930's the Jews would have a clear & present voice in government & the funds to education their children as they see fit.

 

Now if you were the leader of Germany in the 1930's you would send the Jews home.

 

You're making me burst with laughter

 

 

 

 

 

It does not mean the State can not HELP assist any institution that has an affiliation with a Church. There is NOT one WORD in the Constitution that either states or implies this.

 

What it means is that the State can NOT ACKNOWLEDGE any Church ruling, provision, etc. as a formal ruling of the State. The purpose of this separation was to PREVENT the emergence of what had taken place in Europe up to that time. It was to prohibit FORCED acceptance of state ruling on the basis of their religious affiliation. An abuse that was common in Europe at the time.

 

**HAIR-SPLITTING SEMANTICS. THE PURPOSE OF THE SEPARATION WAS TO KEEP ANY RELIGIOUS GROUPS FROM TAKING OVER AND EXERTING UNDUE INFLUENCE OVER THOSE GROUPS THAT DON'T AGREE WITH THEM. SCHOOLS ARE FOR READING, MATH, SCIENCE, ETC.

 

Do you realize how your points are defeating themselves?

First you say that segregation should be allowed in all fairness but then you want to deny it on your belief that a God based school deserves special prohibition over any other idealogical school?

 

**SPECIAL PROHIBITION? WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN?

 

If Juggernaut were leader of Germany in the 1930's the Jews would have a clear & present voice in government & the funds to education their children as they see fit.

 

**NOW THIS IS LAUGHABLE. UNDER YOUR PROPOSED SYSTEM, THE GERMAN JEWS WOULD NEVER RECEIVE ANY BENEFITS FROM THEIR GOV'T, BECAUSE THE PERCENTAGE OF JEWS ISN'T HIGH ENOUGH.

[Steff]

Jugger.. I have no idea about why half the things done around here are done.

 

Just have a hunch..

 

 

And for the record.. I have no comment on this matter, in this forum, so there's no need to address me.

[Controlled Chaos]

"RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION MUST DISAPPEAR FROM THE SCHOOLS…. The man who is tied to the dogmas of the Churches need look for nothing from us in the future.”

 

 

Thus declared the Nazi inspector of Munich city schools in Germany, June 1939. His words appear in the July 1945 U.S. Office of Strategic Services (OSS) study “The Nazi Master Plan,” available online in pdf format in four parts from the “Nuremberg Project” at Rutgers University and the Rutgers Journal of Law and Religion.

[Wong & Owens]

Why would you close a thread that is for the most part profanity free & is simply debating S,L, & P in an SLP forum? If you do then it's a clear sign of censorship & a form of reliigous persecution. I just want to make that known.

 

God forbid if prayer in schools might lead to :

 

I assume you are just trying to be funny, because comparing a few people to 3 billion educated over the last 30 yrs is pretty lame.

 

4) Is a clear lie.  Again do a search on Google on "Christians teaching Muslims" to learn.

5) Has nothing to do with schools.

6) The Inquistion & last Crusade occured nearly 400 yrs ago.  Get over it you look nuts to bring it up in 2004. Likewise if you bothered to study either they are much more so cases of Politicians using religion as a tool to enact their ideology than the other way around. Which is  exactly the purpose of the separation of Church & State: to prevent the State from using religion as a tool in that context.

 

7) Hitler killed many Catholics & Christians that tried to protect the Jews as well.  To even mention prayer as a catalyst to the Holocaust is beyond dumb.

AGAIN, SEMANTICS. THE POINT WAS YOUR LUDICROUS CLAIM THAT PRAYER IN SCHOOLS MIGHT SOMEHOW MAKE ALL THESE PROBLEMS GO AWAY. I WAS JUST POINTING OUT CLEAR EXAMPLES HOW THIS THEORY IS BUNK. IT IS NO LESS TRUE TO SAY THAT ABOLISHING PRAYER EVERYWHERE MIGHT HAVE THE SAME EFFECT ON LIFE IN AMERICA. PRAYER IS RELIGION, TO A LARGE DEGREE, AND THERE IS NO BASIS IN FACT THAT A "RELIGIOUS" PERSON CAUSES ANY LESS PROBLEMS THAN A NON-RELIGIOUS PERSON.

[JUGGERNAUT]

In a room of 300 kids, if 299 Christian kids begin a big prayer, it is going to be uncomfortable for the 1 jewish kid.

 

And don't think for a minute that those 299 kids are all of the sudden going to become model citizens because they pray.

This is why the thread should not be closed.

We should be able to debate the consequences of denying the 299 kids the right to prayer in order to protect the right of the Jewish/Atheist to abstain.

 

1) If we are going to debate things on priniciple then suggestions of the 299 taking it out on the 1 have little merit. You would need to provide some reference to support that.

Referring to general references like KKK is useless because we are talking specifically 299 kids deciding to pray in a class room. Behavioral science defining those 299 kids undoubtedly comes into play.

 

It's called tolerance & it's practiced in sports. When games are played in Canada both the American & Canadian national anthems are sung. Why not give the Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. the opportunity to offer a 60 sec prayer in the class room as well?

[Wong & Owens]

It's called tolerance & it's practiced in sports.  When games are played in Canada both the American & Canadian national anthems are sung. Why not give the Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc.  the opportunity to offer a 60 sec prayer in the class room as well?

WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT TO SUBJECT THE ENTIRE CLASS(AS WELL AS WASTE OF CLASS TIME) TO EACH RELIGIOUS GROUP'S PRAYER? CANT YOU PRAY BEFORE SCHOOL? AFTER SCHOOL? AFTER DINNER? BEFORE GOING TO BED? WHY THE HELL IS IT SO IMPORTANT TO FORCE PUBLIC SCHOOLS TO INSERT A DAILY PRAYER INTO THE CURRICULUM? IT'S POINTLESS.

[Steff]

I do have one thing to say...

 

 

Prayer in schools.. kids praying.. isn't going to do jack crapola for society when their parents aren't reinforcing the behavior. Jugger.. I believe up there you mentioned that the % of "believing" Catholics is "down"... I assume those % are based on adults..?

 

Well.. if the adults don't believe, which would lead me to believe the kids are not practicing prayer at home - maybe not even going to church - what makes you think that prayer in the schools would have such an impact?

[Controlled Chaos]

The whole article....for anyone interested

 

The Art of Religious War

 

By Lowell Ponte

 

 

"RELIGIOUS INSTRUCTION MUST DISAPPEAR FROM THE SCHOOLS…. The man who is tied to the dogmas of the Churches need look for nothing from us in the future.”

 

 

Thus declared the Nazi inspector of Munich city schools in Germany, June 1939. His words appear in the July 1945 U.S. Office of Strategic Services (OSS) study “The Nazi Master Plan,” available online in pdf format in four parts from the “Nuremberg Project” at Rutgers University and the Rutgers Journal of Law and Religion.

 

 

“Implementation of this objective started with the curtailment of religious instruction in the primary and secondary schools,” the OSS (forerunner of today’s Central Intelligence Agency) document continues, “with the squeezing of the religious periods into inconvenient hours, with Nazi propaganda among the teachers in order to induce them to refuse the teaching of religion, with vetoing of…religious text books, and finally with substituting Nazi Weltanschauung and ‘German Faith’ for Christian religious denominational instruction…. At the time of the outbreak of the war…religious instruction had practically disappeared from Germany’s primary schools.”

 

 

Adolf Hitler’s evil attempt to carry out genocide and his mass murder of six million Jews is recognized as one of history’s greatest crimes against humanity.

 

 

Less well known, but revealed clearly in this OSS document, was Hitler’s master plan to destroy Christianity and replace it with his own “German Faith” concocted from a mixture of occultism, pre-Christian paganism, racism and National Socialism (whose German words for his political party contracted into “Nazi”).

 

 

Hitler’s regime was bent on “eliminating all political organizations other than the Nazi party,” the OSS analysis says. It was a jealous religion that allowed no other gods but Hitler and no rival institution that might explicitly or implicitly challenge its totalitarian authority.

 

 

Such hatred and fear of other religions is a hallmark of socialism. Karl Marx denounced religion as the “opiate of the masses,” preventing them from martyring themselves to the cause of Marxist revolution. The late Soviet Union promoted atheism, then watched its empire start unraveling in Poland because the Roman Catholic Church and its Polish Pope commanded vastly more love and loyalty from the people than the Church of Marx.

 

 

In the Peoples Republic of China the Marxist rulers fearfully persecute a sect whose simple meditation undermines government control over peoples’ minds. Communist China days ago imprisoned yet more peasants in labor camps for the subversive crime of merely possessing Bibles.

 

 

Socialists in the United States, including those who behind the scenes control one of America’s two biggest political parties, have not yet attained the degree of power held by their comrades Hitler, Stalin and Mao. But here, too, their aim is to purge all other religions from the public square – from public school classrooms to holiday displays – so that their socialist faith can have a monopoly as our official government-imposed religion.

 

 

“Religion,” as defined by the American Heritage Dictionary, can be “A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.”

 

 

Humanism, as defined by the Oxford English Dictionary and embraced by socialists from Adolf Hitler to Hillary Clinton, can be “the Religion of Humanity.” In this nominally-secular Humanist religion man replaces God as, in the Greek philosopher Protagoras’ phrase, “the measure of all things.”

 

 

The Western idea of God is not necessarily essential in defining religion. Buddhism, e.g., has no deity, but few would insist on calling it a philosophy instead of a religion.

 

 

The United States Federal Government is prohibited by our Constitution’s First Amendment from making any law “respecting an Establishment of Religion [i.e., a state church like the Church of England], or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”

 

 

This had the effect, wrote the author of our Declaration of Independence and third President Thomas Jefferson in an 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists, of “building a wall of separation between Church and State.”

 

 

What did Jefferson mean by this? Part of the answer appears in his preface to one of the only three things for which he wished to be remembered on his tombstone, his 1779 Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom.

 

 

“To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors,” wrote Jefferson, “is sinful and tyrannical.” (I think of this each time I witness National Public Radio (NPR) and the Public Broadcasting Service (PBS) using my coerced taxes to broadcast Bill Moyers, an ultra-Leftist who thus has pocketed far more than $20 million taxpayer dollars.)

 

 

A man should not even be forced to support a particular preacher of his own religious persuasion, Jefferson continued, for to do so would deprive him “of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor whose morals he would make his pattern, and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness….”

 

 

Jefferson believed that religion should be something between a person and his or her God and that government should not interfere here. “It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god,” wrote Jefferson in 1785. “It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

 

 

For most of two centuries this separation of church and state helped America avoid the religious wars that killed millions in Europe and elsewhere.

 

 

But the Left has broken that peace. It has done so by violating another key tenant of the Jeffersonian ideal – that government should remain very, very small, thereby leaving almost the entire public square open to each person’s free exercise of religion.

 

 

The Left has invoked a new syllogism – that church and state must be separate, that the state must intrude and exert control everywhere and over every aspect of our lives, and therefore that the church must vanish.

 

 

As such reasoning makes clear, today’s Leftists are morally unfit to lick Jefferson’s boots, much less to quote this founding father of our liberties to advance a socialist agenda that Jefferson would despise and oppose with every fiber of his being. Jefferson’s and Ben Franklin’s motto, after all, was “Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God,” a phrase that almost became part of America’s Great Seal.

 

 

Today’s religious war, launched by the Left, masquerades as a struggle to preserve religious liberty by exorcising religion from every government building, budget expenditure, public school commencement speech and other activity. This is a lie.

 

 

We in truth are caught in a crossfire – oops, delete the word “cross” with its Christian implications – between two religions. The Judeo-Christian faith of the Bible is under attack by the Humanist “religion” of the Left that aims to uproot and replace it, just as was attempted by Hitler’s National Socialist Germany, by the late Marxist Soviet Union, and today by Communist China.

 

 

The central point of this column is that secular socialism in America inherently violates the First Amendment. It does so by relentlessly enlarging government. Because every new inch of cultural and social ground invaded by government is thereafter purged of religion, every incremental expansion of government violates the religious “free exercise” right of those whose lives it invades.

 

 

All secular socialism is therefore by its very nature a rolling juggernaut of genocide against the worshippers of every other religion.

 

 

And all socialism is therefore evil and an enemy of human rights, whether it is the socialism of Hitler or of Hillary.

 

 

In recent decades the courts (most of whose current judges have been appointed by Leftists) have tended to rule that where government advances religion must retreat in the name of separation of church and state.

 

 

What the courts should rule, instead, is that, because of the inherent supremacy of the First Amendment, government should be prohibited from advancing its own Establishment of Socialist Religion, its sphere of power and influence, any further. Wherever government advances, it creates a de facto “Establishment of Religion,” a humanist state “church” from which all other faiths are forcibly excluded.

 

 

Non-statist religions should not be required to retreat or yield in the face of expanding government. The state religion that worships ever-larger government should be prohibited by the courts from such expansion in the name of religious liberty.

 

 

Okay, I confess. I’m a utopian idealist. As wrote the poet Robert Browning: “Ah, but a man’s reach should exceed his grasp, Or what’s a heaven for?”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[JUGGERNAUT]

AGAIN, SEMANTICS.  THE POINT WAS YOUR LUDICROUS CLAIM THAT PRAYER IN SCHOOLS MIGHT SOMEHOW MAKE ALL THESE PROBLEMS GO AWAY.  I WAS JUST POINTING OUT CLEAR EXAMPLES HOW THIS THEORY IS BUNK.  IT IS NO LESS TRUE TO SAY THAT ABOLISHING PRAYER EVERYWHERE MIGHT HAVE THE SAME EFFECT ON LIFE IN AMERICA.  PRAYER IS RELIGION, TO A LARGE DEGREE, AND THERE IS NO BASIS IN FACT THAT A "RELIGIOUS" PERSON CAUSES ANY LESS PROBLEMS THAN A NON-RELIGIOUS PERSON.

Why are you using caps? Refer to the NAZI reference above.

 

It's not semantics. It's fundamental context. The foundation for separation of Church & State had little to do with the Church having control over the State & EVERYTHING to do with the State USING the Church as a tool to subjegate the citizens.

 

Did you bother studying World History? This is pretty fundamental stuff. There's nearly a 1000 yrs of history explaining the State's use of of the Church as a tool in the Kingdoms of Europe. In fact if you study that history in detail you will find more often than not that the Church served as a conscience for the State to prevent greater rape & pillage of the citizens.

 

As for the rest of your claims there is over 100 yrs worth of behavioral science data now available (go to Google to find it) that paints a clear picture of society in America in the pro-prayer in school yrs vs the con-prayer in school yrs. It paints a clear picture that the pro-prayer students were better people than the con.

[Queen Prawn]

This is why the thread should not be closed.

We should be able to debate the consequences of denying the 299 kids the right to prayer in order to protect the right of the Jewish/Atheist to abstain.

Which is why I call for a silent prayer time - then kids can pray to the God of their choice and the atheist children could think about whatever they choose...

[1549]

This is why the thread should not be closed.

We should be able to debate the consequences of denying the 299 kids the right to prayer in order to protect the right of the Jewish/Atheist to abstain.

 

1) If we are going to debate things on priniciple then suggestions of the 299 taking it out on the 1 have little merit.  You would need to provide some reference to support that.

Referring to general references like KKK is useless because we are talking specifically 299 kids deciding to pray in a class room. Behavioral science defining those 299 kids undoubtedly comes into play.

 

It's called tolerance & it's practiced in sports.  When games are played in Canada both the American & Canadian national anthems are sung. Why not give the Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc.  the opportunity to offer a 60 sec prayer in the class room as well?

The purpose of school is to learn.

 

The school's responsibility is to provide a learning environment in which every student can feel comfortable, and every student is equal.

 

The minute you start a prayer minute, or group prayers that equality, and that comfortable learning environment is lost.

 

Even if the school does not sponsor the prayer, even if 15 of 20 kids decide they are going to pray, I believe it is the schools responsibility to say, please refrain from prayer sessions during class. That way the rights of the other 5 kids are protected.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I do have one thing to say...

 

 

Prayer in schools.. kids praying.. isn't going to do jack crapola for society when their parents aren't reinforcing the behavior. Jugger.. I believe up there you mentioned that the % of "believing" Catholics is "down"... I assume those % are based on adults..?

 

Well.. if the adults don't believe, which would lead me to believe the kids are not practicing prayer at home - maybe not even going to church - what makes you think that prayer in the schools would have such an impact?

Excellent point Steff!

 

To which I ask you this. If a child suddenly came home feeling better about themselves & their school because of the benefits of school prayer in the class room

do you not think that would rub off on the parents? Do you not think that a child embracing prayer might actually lead a parent to rediscover their faith?

 

 

There is a TON of information available showing a clear distinction between those who pray & those who don't. So please don't even bother to suggest that a person who prays everyday is just as likely to commit crimes & human rights violations than a person who doesn't. The numbers aren't even in the same Universe & any one with common sense would realize that. Of course we are talking America so don't even bother mentioning the militants around the world who pray. There are schools in Pakistan that teach nothing but the Koran. I hardly think even you would call that a complete education.

[Soxy]

There are many good, God-fearing Christians who do NOT want the Bible and God in school as they feel it would violate the first amendment on the establishment of religion. And who would decide which brand of Christianity gets taught? The liberal brand, the conservative, the evengelicals, the Catholics? There is no ONE Christianity, and don't assume those views are that of EVERY Christian.

[Steff]

Excellent point Steff! 

 

To which I ask you this. If a child suddenly came home feeling better about themselves & their school because of the benefits of school prayer in the class room

do you not think that would rub off on the parents?  Do you not think that a child embracing prayer might actually lead a parent to rediscover their faith?

 

 

There is a TON of information available showing a clear distinction between those who pray & those who don't.  So please don't even bother to suggest that a person who prays everyday is just as likely to commit crimes & human rights violations than a person who doesn't. The numbers aren't even in the same Universe & any one with common sense would realize that. Of course we are talking America so don't even bother mentioning the militants around the world who pray.  There are schools in Pakistan that teach nothing but the Koran.  I hardly think even you would call that a complete education.

To be honest... no.

 

 

 

 

 

And I didn't say anything about those who do or don't pray in connection with committing crimes...

[JUGGERNAUT]

The purpose of school is to learn.

 

The school's responsibility is to provide a learning environment in which every student can feel comfortable, and every student is equal.

 

The minute you start a prayer minute, or group prayers that equality, and that comfortable learning environment is lost.

 

Even if the school does not sponsor the prayer, even if 15 of 20 kids decide they are going to pray, I believe it is the schools responsibility to say, please refrain from prayer sessions during class.  That way the rights of the other 5 kids are protected.

Wrong. The school's responsibility is to teach a child/adult the best way possible so that the child can become a BENEFICIAL citizen to the nation. That comes through gainful employment as well as social influence.

 

To suggest the spiritual & emotional side of a human being has any less importance in that educational process is to ignore the consequences that leaves on the nation as a whole. As I pointed to before even the Chinese & Japanese have come to accept this & are now beginning to integrate such general princiiples into their education system.

 

There is no loss of a comfortable learning environment in a class room if the majority of the students decide to organize a minute of prayer. You need to stop expanding a single instance to a generalization with no basis in fact. It is the obligation of the school to do what is best to produce the best MAJORITY it can. The comfort of one should not outweigh the comfort of the many.

[Soxy]

The comfort of one should not outweigh the comfort of the many.

I for one could never be comfortable with prayer in school because I would know some of my friends and classmates would be uncomfortable.

[JUGGERNAUT]

There are many good, God-fearing Christians who do NOT want the Bible and God in school as they feel it would violate the first amendment on the establishment of religion. And who would decide which brand of Christianity gets taught? The liberal brand, the conservative, the evengelicals, the Catholics? There is no ONE Christianity, and don't assume those views are that of EVERY Christian.

You statement is a complete fallacy. All polls of God-fearing Christians (which are assumed to be Church going Christians) show clear support for school prayer. So to suggest that the majority of them do not is a clear lie.

 

In a democracy that protects religious freedom & realizes the importance of exercising that freedom in the development of children & young adults the parents & students would decide through school referrendums.

[CrimsonWeltall]

To which I ask you this. If a child suddenly came home feeling better about themselves & their school because of the benefits of school prayer in the class room

do you not think that would rub off on the parents? Do you not think that a child embracing prayer might actually lead a parent to rediscover their faith?

 

Considering you haven't shown any benefits, no.

 

Kids paying lip service to a concept doesn't do jack s***. Nearly all kids say the Pledge every day and most just think of it as a habit, not as anything meaningful.

 

There is a TON of information available showing a clear distinction between those who pray & those who don't.

 

Is that the distinction that those who don't tend to be much greater educated or have lower divorce rates?

 

There is no loss of a comfortable learning environment in a class room if the majority of the students decide to organize a minute of prayer.

 

Though there is little loss there, a single minute of prayer is obviously not what was being proposed.

[Queen Prawn]

God-fearing Christians

Why do people say 'God-fearing Christian?' Why should I fear God? That is a part of Catholicism that I have never been able to comprehend (even when I was a practicing Catholic, I never understood this)...