America's Culture War

[Queen Prawn]

Let's turn this around briefly (just cuz I am curious to the answer). Say there are a majority of Muslims (that follow the Islamic religion) in a given class. Would you be comfortable praying to their 'God' or having your kids pray to their 'God?'

[Steff]

Let's turn this around briefly (just cuz I am curious to the answer).  Say there are a majority of Muslims in a given class.  Would you be comfortable praying to their 'God' or having your kids pray to their 'God?'

[Soxy]

You statement is a complete fallacy.  All polls of God-fearing Christians (which are assumed to be Church going Christians) show clear support for school prayer. So to suggest that the majority of them do not is a clear lie.

 

In a democracy that protects religious freedom & realizes the importance of exercising that freedom in the development of children & young adults the parents & students would decide through school referrendums.

I'm afraid the majority of my Christian friends would not support established religion in the classroom. So know you're saying all types of Christianity but yours are invalid?

[Queen Prawn]

I am seriously curious what the answer would be. I went to a Catholic HS (Maria) and I remember that in one of my classes, there were more non-Catholics than Catholics (a few Islamics, and I think the rest were of various Christian faiths), but am asking just how Catholics/Christians would feel if the tables were turned...

[CrimsonWeltall]

Sorry no hypothetical situations allowed.

 

We are the majority therefore you will be assimilated.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Him or his kid (Lon Chaney Jr. - better known as 'Wolfman').  I can never keep it straight.  Good song though.

It was both, according to Warren Z.

[Queen Prawn]

Sorry no hypothetical situations allowed.

 

We are the majority therefore you will be assimilated.

OH NO - A BORG has taken over this thread!

[CrimsonWeltall]

I think if the majority of the community happens to be racist, they should be able to fit their schools accordingly. As long as over 50% of the students don't mind (which they probably won't because at this age they'll believe whatever their parents believe), then each morning 1 minute will be taken out to have a cross-burning and to proclaim that them colored folks are inferior.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Is that the distinction that those who don't tend to be much greater educated or have lower divorce rates?

 

 

 

Though there is little loss there, a single minute of prayer is obviously not what was being proposed.

You should do the research on your own. Go to Google and search on benefits of school prayer or if you prefer research on school prayer.

 

Kids paying lip service .. oh I really like that one. Considering that the majority of students in the class requested the right to do so. Details are very important in debates. No where have I advocated forced prayer like in the past. This has to be student organized & parents approved through referrendum.

 

Did I just hear you suggest that divorce rates are higher amongst people who pray daily than those who not? Did you really just make that claim?

 

Much greater education .. that's a good one too. Which person is more educated? One educated post 1990 who did his/her own homework, couldn't cheat on tests, wrote their own papers or one who uses every means possible today to cheat & get others to do their work?

[Soxy]

You should do the research on your own.  Go to Google and search on benefits of school prayer or if you prefer research on school prayer.

Of COURSE those studies wouldn't be biased or funded by Christian associations...

 

 

Kids are in school 6 hours a day. Why can't they pray during the other 18?

[Steff]

If there currently is no prayer in schools.. how do they know it would be benificial..? Are they basing this off of the kids in catholic schools where there is prayer allowed..? And isn't that kinda wrong since the kids going to the catholic schools assumably already pray..?

[JUGGERNAUT]

YES! Absolutely! Finely you have come to the heart of the matter.

Why? Because it fosters respect & admiration for others faith as well.

 

Ex. Let's consider a class of 10% atheist/other, 10% jewish, 30% muslim, & 50% christian

 

Any one of these 4 groups should be given the freedom to ask for a minute of prayer.

That request should be voted on through referrendum by the parents & residents of that community. Now maybe there isn't enough support in the community to allow that but that due process should still be afforded to those students. I would hope in a class where 30% of them where Muslim that the community would decided it as follows:

1 minute for Christians, 1 minute for Muslims, & 1 minute for respect of silent prayer by others. There are only so many minutes one can allot for this so it's the best solution in this case.

[Steff]

YES!  Absolutely! Finely you have come to the heart of the matter.

Excuse me...?

 

 

The heart of the matter..?

 

Because I choose not to make a statement on a situation I have no idea about..? No experience in..? No clue as to how I would react when and if my child is faced with this situation..?

 

 

Why don't you stop pushing.. it's rude.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I think if the majority of the community happens to be racist, they should be able to fit their schools accordingly.  As long as over 50% of the students don't mind (which they probably won't because at this age they'll believe whatever their parents believe), then each morning 1 minute will be taken out to have a cross-burning and to proclaim that them colored folks are inferior.

How did prayer suddenly become an act of racism?

 

This has nothing to do with prayer but I will address it from the general context of the will of the majority. There are Federal, State, & municipal laws, statutes, & codes to prevent violation of basic human rights. Racism is prohibited by those laws.

 

Civics 101:

How law works. A Federal law supercedes a State law. A State law supercedes a municipal law. A municipal law supercedes a district law.

 

For a district law to pass it can't violate any existing Fed, St, or Muni law.

 

In a democracy, Fed law should reflect the majority of citizens in the nation. A State law should reflect the majority of citizens in the state, & so on.

 

You can think of it as 4 circles of influence.

[BrandoFan]

Of COURSE those studies wouldn't be biased or funded by Christian associations...

 

 

That's why I love this thread.

 

Religious fundamentalism couched in side-splittingly hilarious "secularized, academic" rhetoric, peppered by intellectual dishonesty = popcorn time for moi.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Did I just hear you suggest that divorce rates are higher amongst people who pray daily than those who not? Did you really just make that claim?

 

The 1999 Barna (who is a Christian) study on divorce showed that born-again Christians (Baptists in particular) had the highest divorce rate, while Atheists/Agnostics had the lowest.

 

Much greater education .. that's a good one too.

 

I was referring to the fact that people of less education (high school or less) tend to be the most religious, while people of more education (college grads or more) tend to be the least.

 

Kids paying lip service .. oh I really like that one.Considering that the majority of students in the class requested the right to do so.

 

Gimme a break. You expect me to believe all these little kids are really into the religion their parents give them? I don't buy for a second that a group of 3rd graders are going to walk into class and be like "oh please teacher can you give us a lecture on Christianity today?"

 

No where have I advocated forced prayer like in the past. This has to be student organized & parents approved through referrendum.

 

And anyone who might vote against it and lose then pays for the school to teach one religion to their children. Oh I forgot, somehow the county is going to build a new segregated schoolhouse for the people who don't want that.

[CrimsonWeltall]

1 minute for Christians, 1 minute for Muslims, & 1 minute for respect of silent prayer by others.

 

What a waste of 3 minutes. There is plenty of time before school starts, during breaks, during lunch, and after school for children to congregate for whatever religious activity they choose. There is no need for it to be during class.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Of COURSE those studies wouldn't be biased or funded by Christian associations...

 

 

Kids are in school 6 hours a day. Why can't they pray during the other 18?

Until another media organization chooses to pay for a study all that exists are sources that would align themselves as Christian.

 

Are you volunteering to do an independant study?

 

As to the rest of you:

Quote:

The 1999 Barna (who is a Christian) study on divorce showed that born-again Christians (Baptists in particular) had the highest divorce rate, while Atheists/Agnostics had the lowest.

 

I would like the details on that poll. The latest mainstream media polls place Catholics at the top. But this has nothing to do with prayer. The closest statistic we have to those who participate in daily prayer are practicing Catholics. These are church going Catholics & in America they make up the largest single prayer group if you will. Roughly about 20-25 million Americans. They have the lowest divorce rate in the county.

 

You're reference to the largest group of religious persons being high-school or less is completely false. It was true 30 yrs ago, but not today. But you're general assertion that the % of college educated persons retaining their religious practice is decreasing is true. Of course the absence of God from their education process prior to college probably has a lot to do with that

 

Quote:

And anyone who might vote against it and lose then pays for the school to teach one religion to their children. Oh I forgot, somehow the county is going to build a new segregated schoolhouse for the people who don't want that.

 

A democracy guarantees fairness to the majority. If you don't believe in that then you don't believe in democracy. The country is not going to build anything that does not have sufficient support. If you lose the vote then you can either move to a district that suits you or accept the consequence that your opinion is a minority one.

[JUGGERNAUT]

What a waste of 3 minutes. There is plenty of time before school starts, during breaks, during lunch, and after school for children to congregate for whatever religious activity they choose.  There is no need for it to be during class.

I love the way YOUR opinion rules over the students.

 

There is a distinct purpose of organized prayer at the beginning of a school day:

to reinforce general Christian values in the minds of the students.

 

Every study available shows that strength in numbers reinforces a principle.

It's much stronger than allowing silent or individual prayer.

 

The Godless had there chance over the past 30 yrs to prove their point.

We have 30 yrs of statistics including that declining avg age in our prisons.

Did you know that 1/2 of all prison inmates in the US today are young adults?

 

Your policies are a clear failure. Just like they were on welfare, malpractice suits,

& medicare in general. It's time you go quietly to the corner & let the real workers have a stab at the problems you created.

[CrimsonWeltall]

I would like the details on that poll. The latest mainstream media polls place Catholics at the top. But this has nothing to do with prayer. The closest statistic we have to those who participate in daily prayer are practicing Catholics. These are church going Catholics & in America they make up the largest single prayer group if you will. Roughly about 20-25 million Americans. They have the lowest divorce rate in the county.

 

barna

 

Yes, Catholic and Lutherans were at the bottom with the nonreligious as 21%. Catholics also tend to be more liberal (and less likely than say, Born-Agains, to want school prayer).

 

A democracy guarantees fairness to the majority. If you don't believe in that then you don't believe in democracy. The country is not going to build anything that does not have sufficient support. If you lose the vote then you can either move to a district that suits you or accept the consequence that your opinion is a minority one.

 

That's a real nice outlook. f*** the minority.

 

I love the way YOUR opinion rules over the students.

 

All you have to do is explain why these activities cannot be done outside of class.

 

There is a distinct purpose of organized prayer at the beginning of a school day:

to reinforce general Christian values in the minds of the students.

 

Every study available shows that strength in numbers reinforces a principle.

It's much stronger than allowing silent or individual prayer.

 

One can reinforce positive principles without having them be distinctly Christian.

 

The Godless had there chance over the past 30 yrs to prove their point.

 

You have 30 years of correlation, not causation. Problems among youth can be attributed to many things. To single out a lack of religious indoctrination is ridiculous.

 

Your policies are a clear failure. Just like they were on welfare, malpractice suits,

& medicare in general.

 

lol. Where the f*** did these come from? What was Jesus' commentary on the American welfare system?

[JUGGERNAUT]

I have created a new poll thread to discuss specifically the issue of kids being allowed to exercise their faith in private at schools. That being the case we will leave that discussion there.

 

No one is saying to F the minority. Minority rights are those rights that the majority agrees upon. This is fundamental to any democracy. In the case of the US the founders assign certain alienable rights as God given rights. Thereby restricting them from being open to debate or subjected to majority opinion. It would take a by & large majority movement to usurp any of those rights.

 

Again in you're polls you are still generalizing the religious groups. There is a distinct difference between practicing & non-practicing. In all divorce polls the practicing Christian groups are the lowest.

 

Quote:

One can reinforce positive principles without having them be distinctly Christian.

If that is the case then why isn't it happening? Perhaps because there is no tradition

or culture to emphasis generic positive principles on students. You can lip speak

things all you want, but if there is no basis to believe in them how much worth do they have?

 

No I have 30 yrs of data clearly outling criminal behavior amongsts non-practicing Christians vs practicing Christians. I likewise have 30 yrs worth of behavioral studies demonstrating the importance of the "God" complex to young minds.

It really doesn't matter whether it's Christian or Muslim but it needs to reflect a

general belief. School prayer is a very valid thing to concentrate on because we have data both before it was banned & after. That's enough data to strongly suggest it is a major factor. Perhaps not the most important one, but certain one that can no longer be ignored.

[CrimsonWeltall]

If that is the case then why isn't it happening? Perhaps because there is no tradition

or culture to emphasis generic positive principles on students.

 

Then such a tradition should be pushed, but in a way which was open to all students.

 

As I probably need to do about the marriage statistics, one needs to look closer than general statistics about schools too. There are tons of schools which are doing great without any prayer sessions or Christian preaching. Other factors are clearly in play. There was a lot of change in the 60s and to put all failures -and no successes- of subsequent decades on "the Godless" is a bit much.

 

No I have 30 yrs of data

 

Are there any other trends in such data?

[Soxy]

Until another media organization chooses to pay for a study all that exists are sources that would align themselves as Christian.

 

Are you volunteering to do an independant study?

Yes, actually I would do a study. If I were getting funding from a NON-BIASED source you bet I would jump on this. I've done lots of research and am planning on doing it for a career.

 

If I could get proper funding yes I would do it.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Then such a tradition should be pushed, but in a way which was open to all students.

 

As I probably need to do about the marriage statistics, one needs to look closer than general statistics about schools too. There are tons of schools which are doing great without any prayer sessions or Christian preaching. Other factors are clearly in play.  There was a lot of change in the 60s and to put all failures -and no successes- of subsequent decades on "the Godless" is a bit much.

 

 

 

Are there any other trends in such data?

In answer to your question, yes. When I refer to Godless I don't necc mean those who believe in God. As I've stated before I know several asians in Japan & in America that do not beleive in God per-se but do believe in the philosophies in the Bible.

 

Likewise when I refer to school prayer I don't mean necc the prayer itself but rather an environment that makes such acts in private difficult & stressful.

 

What the studies suggest is that aversion to God in public schools has led to the absence of ethics/morality being taught in the schools. That's primarily what is missing.

And when you consider that all other media in a child's life these days is primarily void of such concepts the burden has fallen entirely on the parents. By & large it's a burden they neither want nor are qualified to shoulder.

 

Now how do you change that? Well it's very difficult because of the anti-God culture.

It can certainly be done through references to morally good & sound philosophers, but administrators so far have been reluctant to do so.

 

I wouldn't mind my child going to a public school where each day before class the teacher reads a quote from a philsopher & includes Jesus Christ in that framework.

One day Jesus, one day Mohammed, one day Confuscious, etc. There are over nearly 300 days in the school year & a daily indoctrination by all of the greats toward developing moral & ethical students would probably be more beneficial than prayer itself.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Of COURSE those studies wouldn't be biased or funded by Christian associations...

 

 

Kids are in school 6 hours a day. Why can't they pray during the other 18?

 

As usual, Soxy, YOU ROCK!

 

This is so NOT about faith and so about self-righteous religiosos cramming it n the throat of the nation the see as Godless and in moral decay. Pray when you get up, in the shower, at the breakfast table, on your way to school, between classes (heck, pray to yourself during class if that's more important than the subject matter to you), between classes, on the bus home, yada yada. But keep it between you and the Big G. Isn't that what is SUPPOSED to matter.

 

Freedom FOR relgion AND freedom FROM religion ARE IMPLICIT in the First Amendment. Anyone who suggests otherwise is bulls***ting you.