America's Culture War

[Pale Hose Jon]

As a deist, i'm not getting into any religous discussion. But over the last five pages of this topic all i have been thinking about is why are we talking about religion in school. IT IS NOT AN ISSUE.

 

THE ISSUE IS what we are teaching kids and the quality of the teachers. Why don't you Debate that.

[FlaSoxxJim]

THE ISSUE IS what we are teaching kids and the quality of the teachers. Why don't you Debate that.

You are a smart man.

[southsider2k5]

As a deist, i'm not getting into any religous discussion. But over the last five pages of this topic all i have been thinking about is why are we talking about religion in school. IT IS NOT AN ISSUE.

 

THE ISSUE IS what we are teaching kids and the quality of the teachers. Why don't you Debate that.

You want to know why we end up with idiot teachers, I will tell you why. When a college student has problems, they advise them to go into elementary ed. They keep them away from the "tough" majors and instead let them teach our young.

[SuperSteve]

You want to know why we end up with idiot teachers, I will tell you why.  When a college student has problems, they advise them to go into elementary ed.  They keep them away from the "tough" majors and instead let them teach our young.

Hence Heather Lee..................................................................

[JUGGERNAUT]

I love the way some of you seem to think CAPS adds greater weight to your argument.

Of course if it's your opinion then it has to be correct regardless of history, behavioral science studies, or psychology.

 

Any ways school/teachers & ethics/morals has been moved to a new thread. Have at it. There is more to this cultural war then just that & frankly I'm bored with that discussion. I win as always so let's move on

 

Stern vs Oprah:

Well this is a good one & I have just one answer : 3 second rule.

First I agree with Stern. Oprah's March 18th broadcast is no less explciit than his.

Since the argument is protecting the kids & America's mainstream is overwhelming in favor of that then context has little meaning. A kid is not going to understand the differentiation of context like adults.

 

The solution: the 3 second rule. Both shows & any others that broadcast during what the FCC considers kid-friendly hours should be subjected to the 3 second rule & the objectionable words should be bleeped out by the technology. There are few boards on the internet any more that don't bleep objectionable words & the air waves should always have a higher standard than the net.

 

Both shows enjoy late broadcasts to where they can be heard without bleeps so it's not as if their freedom of expression is being compromised. There is no freedom

guaranteeing the right to be heard. That's left solely to the wheels of capitalism.

I don't agree with that in it's entirety but it is what it is.

 

I was following orders:

Forget about it. That isn't going to work in the US military. The rules & practices clearly state that a soldier has a duty to decline & report any order than conflicts with the the Geneva convention & the much higher US military standards & practices. There are no gray areas here it's crystal clear. So the defense will be that the soldiers were ignorant to this definition & could not discern when that conflict occured. Good luck. Maybe you'll enjoy your simulated activities in the Fed penitentiary.

 

Should Rumsfeld resign?

I think he should because as secretary of Defense it's his job to make sure all Generals & military intelligence personal are aware of what is & what is not an acceptable method of interogation. This clearly was/is unacceptable. If it turns out he did that & this was a rogue insubordination then I will give him a repreive. Otherwise Mr. Rumsfeld .. YOU'RE FIRED!

[Gene Honda Civic]

[Soxy]

Actually The Cheat, it appears there are 2 pancakes on that bunny's head...

[Gene Honda Civic]

Actually The Cheat, it appears there are 2 pancakes on that bunny's head...

I believe they call that a "short stack"

[cwsox]

America used to be a God praying country that had both reverence & respect for human rights, public decency, & a moral & virtuous life. Today it is clearly divided between those who want America to turn back to that tradition & those who want America become a greater pool of sin & decadence & debauchery.

 

I love it when people fictionalize the past!

 

 

America used to have reverence & respect for human rights, public decency, & a moral & virtuous life Salem Witch Trials, driving of Anne Hutchinson and Roger Williams out of Massachusettes Bay Colony for religious dissent, King Phillips War (the basic place where Europeans introduced scalping to America bevcause paying a bounty of the heads of Native Americans gave them such huge piles of heads), slavery, slave auctions (now there is public decency!), public executions (more public decency!), "Mad Anthony" Wayne (of Ft Wayne fame) and the Swamp Fox, known for the brutal butchery of Tories and the British, Bloody Kansas, Frank Quantrill and his bloody butchery of nonConfederates, indentured servanthood, denial of the votes to non property owners, denial of vote to women, Maryland being formed because Catholics were persecuted in other colonies, Pennsylvania formed likewise to provide a safe place for "non conforming" Christians, the systematic slaughter - ethnic cleansing - of Native Americans, so successful that many tribes now cease to exist, the driving of Native Americans off their land and forced marches into slave camps ie reservations, the Sand Creek Massacre, Wounded Knee, waging a civil war to protect slavery, the imposition of Jim Crow after slavery was outlawed, segregation, lynchings, child labor, the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, the Scopes trial, the Otto Frank case, the executions of Sacco and Vanzetti, the Palmer Raids after WWI, the first known use of bioloigcal warfare, giving infested blankets to Native Americans, taking Japanese citizens out of their homes and businesses and jobs and putting them in internment camps.

 

When I look at the news, I do think the current administration is bringing those days back!

[Soxy]

CW reminded me of a book I read for class eons and eons ago, The Way We Never Were

[YASNY]

I had to give up reading this thread somewhere in the 7th page. I just couldn't take it anymore or my brain would be turned to jelly.

 

Two thoughts before I depart....

 

1. If Thomas Jefferson were to march into the Capitol building and address congress and the rest of the federal goverment, he'd rip them a new ass for the way they have turned and twisted the constitution and the standards on which this nation was founded. At least, he'd start doing that. He'd probably be shot before he got very far.

 

2. What is wrong with allowing students 3 to 5 minutes of "silent reflection" before they start their day's education. It would give them a chance to mentally prepare themselves for the day ahead. It would not be a case where someone "led" the group in prayer. Each child could use that time in whatever way they felt best to prepare themselves, whether that be a silent prayer or a moment of meditation or whatever. To me, it would give them a short period of time to get past the social interaction that students normally have upon gathering before school and allow them to "focus" upon the upcoming day.

[southsider2k5]

CW reminded me of a book I read for class eons and eons ago, The Way We Never Were

That looks like a great book. I love reading stuff that is contra to accepted history.

[southsider2k5]

I love it when people fictionalize the past!

 

 

America used to have reverence & respect for human rights, public decency, & a moral & virtuous life  Salem Witch Trials, driving of Anne Hutchinson and Roger Williams out of Massachusettes Bay Colony for religious dissent, King Phillips War (the basic place where Europeans introduced scalping to America bevcause paying a bounty of the heads of Native Americans gave them such huge piles of heads), slavery, slave auctions (now there is public decency!), public executions (more public decency!), "Mad Anthony" Wayne (of Ft Wayne fame) and the Swamp Fox, known for the brutal butchery of Tories and the British, Bloody Kansas, Frank Quantrill and his bloody butchery of nonConfederates, indentured servanthood, denial of the votes to non property owners, denial of vote to women, Maryland being formed because Catholics were persecuted in other colonies, Pennsylvania formed likewise to provide a safe place for "non conforming" Christians, the systematic slaughter - ethnic cleansing - of Native Americans, so successful that many tribes now cease to exist, the driving of Native Americans off their land and forced marches into slave camps ie reservations, the Sand Creek Massacre, Wounded Knee, waging a civil war to protect slavery, the imposition of Jim Crow after slavery was outlawed, segregation, lynchings, child labor, the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, the Scopes trial, the Otto Frank case, the executions of Sacco and Vanzetti, the Palmer Raids after WWI, the first known use of bioloigcal warfare, giving infested blankets to Native Americans, taking Japanese citizens out of their homes and businesses and jobs and putting them in internment camps.

 

When I look at the news, I do think the current administration is bringing those days back!

Good historical post, well up until the last line jab. I don't think any of this stuff has changed much. The big difference is what used to be buried is now splashed in the media. It seems like this era is soooooo much worse, but really nothing has changed. Human nature is still human nature. When you hear the idealistic stories of your grandparents, ask them about the parts they are leaving out.

[whitesoxfan99]

2.  What is wrong with allowing students 3 to 5 minutes of "silent reflection" before they start their day's education.  It would give them a chance to mentally prepare themselves for the day ahead.  It would not be a case where someone "led" the group in prayer.  Each child could use that time in whatever way they felt best to prepare themselves, whether that be a silent prayer or a moment of meditation or whatever.  To me, it would give them a short period of time to get past the social interaction that students normally have upon gathering before school and allow them to "focus" upon the upcoming day.

Seems to me that they have that time. It's not like they wake up at school. If they want to pray they have plenty of time before school, in between classes, during lunch, and after school. No one says you can't get in a group and pray before school starts, in fact there was a group of students that did just that at my high school.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Seems to me that they have that time.  It's not like they wake up at school.  If they want to pray they have plenty of time before school, in between classes, during lunch, and after school.  No one says you can't get in a group and pray before school starts, in fact there was a group of students that did just that at my high school.

But that way nobody can witness your self-righteous silent petition, to your Lord and Savior and you would be forced to (*gulp*) have to actually keep it between you and your God. That takes a lot of the fun out of it for the holier-than-thou/better-than-you crowd trying so desparately to 'fix' maybe the one thing in teh public school system that ain't broken.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Do you know how stupid you sound to mention the Salem Witch trials?

Do you ever read anything current on the subject?

 

Let me clue you in:

This was yet another prime example of politicians using religion as a tool.

That's 1 half of the equation.

The second half is that the crop population in that area was most likely poisoned

leading to an LSD type effect for most of the population. Scientists have done research on this & when combining the research with history they found that the poison would survive the baking process of the bread & that the process itself & the preparers would be the most likely to be poisoned. Well history confirms that the main women involved in the testimony of the Salem Witch trials were indeed the prime bread makers of the area.

 

You people really need to get over your fear of religion. It's nothing more than a fandom of a heroic ideology like everything else. Sosa fans go to Wrigley to enjoy being peed on while they cheer for a HR. Jesus fans want to pray. Sosa fans want to be seen on TV. Jesus fans want to be witnessed.

 

I over the mysticism you people write about in relation to religion. You act like it's the boogey man.

 

Dudes, get over the school prayer issue. Those issues have been moved to new threads. Keep up to pace in this thread! Sheesh!

 

There are 2 new topics in the culture war thread. If you people have nothing to say, then they won't get there own threads & we'll move on.

 

1) FCC, Stern, & Oprah

2) Should Rumsfeld resign?

[Steff]

1. I support Howard.

 

 

That is all.

 

 

Seacrest... OUT!

[israel4ever]

I am not for a minute condoning the actions of our military personnel who tortured Iraqis, but, when those 4 Americans were murdered and their bodies torn apart and dragged through the streets of Fallujah, where was the international outrage then?

 

Why haven't apologies been made to the US?

[JUGGERNAUT]

Response to:

http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic...45entry334206

 

Since we are talking about culture & tradition in this thread I think the 60% figure still has merit. It's true that it doesn't reflect people who routinely pray or worship God but it does reflect people who honor their families beliefs enough to count them among them. The 60% of Americans might not show up to Church weekly but they do come out in strength & numbers around the 2 major Christian holidays in America: Christmas & Easter. The Churches are usually standing room only on these days in all denominations whereas they are usually only a 1/3rd filled on others. That does have meaning.

 

The best way to show the link between Christian prayer & morality is to show the prayers of the rosary:

Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee

Blessed thy fruit, & blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus

Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners

Now & at the hour of our death Amen.

 

Our Father who art in Heaven

Hallowed be they name

Thy Kingdom done Thy will be done

On Earth As it is in Heaven

Give us this day our daily bread

And forgive us our trespasses

As we forgive those who trespass against us

And lead us not in to temptation, but deliver us from evil.

 

For the Kingdom, the Power, & the glory are yours now & forever.

 

Core themes of moral philosophy expressed in these prayers:

humility, forgiveness, peace on Earth, repentance, & gratitude.

 

To suggest that these prayers are some how immoral is crazy.

No less crazy to think that the absence of prayer is atheistic or that atheism

is immoral. There are no doubt atheists who believe in the core themes

expressed in these prayers. Imagine that God is an alien civilization from

another Universe & it doesn't change those themes. That's why they are considered core themes. They exist in Western & Eastern philosophies & they are being included in Eastern education today. They are all but void in America's education system.

 

It's not enough to say them once or year or even once a semester. They need to be re-inforced daily & they need to grow in understanding as a child grows. Likewise, the themes present in those prayers above are not all-encompassing. There are several others.

 

This is definitely the most important issue America faces today because when you are an owner of company & have a choice between choosing workers who are endoctrinated in these values & cost less than American ones where are you going to entrust your capital? Part of the exodus of white collar jobs overseas & in places like Bombay deals with trust as much as it does money. Consider a call center if you will. Dell, MCI, & many others have to trust that the people in Bombay will be polite & helpful to Americans seeking help. Part of that trust comes from how the people there are endoctrinated to do the work.

 

There is no end to the number of back office jobs that can go overseas. Legal work was thought to be exempt because the privacy issues but even that has proven not to be an obstacle. If you think the cheating, lying, & attitude is not going to take it's toll on America's work force, guess again. These kids come into the work force with the attitude that America owes them a job & that it's in their best interest to get some one else to do the work. They essentially want a job predicated on bull s*** because that's pretty much what they did for the 16 yrs of their education. Not all of course, but enough to where it will create a stigma upon the work force in general.

 

I have another idea that I will mention in a new post.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I am not for a minute condoning the actions of our military personnel who tortured Iraqis, but, when those 4 Americans were murdered and their bodies torn apart and dragged through the streets of Fallujah, where was the international outrage then?

 

Why haven't apologies been made to the US?

I'm over-budget on time so I'll make it quick. Of the G7 nations 3 of them are the most visible to the world: US, UK, Japan. The home companies in these countries can be seen in every market place in the world today. We are products of Western education where we do not equate Mc Donalds as a form of imperialism. The rest of the world does. Included the educated. It is the same as with 9/11. Though the world wept for the souls lost that day, they do not weep for America itself. Not for that reason. They see us as the biggest imperialist in the world today & with both a harsh history & modern remembrance of UK imperialism they do not distinquish between the two.

 

For better or worse we are seen as the Goliath & any one who opposes us for better or for worse is seen in the light of David. I wish there was a way we could change it but we do not control America's capitalist engine around the world. That is left to McD's, Nike, GAP, etc. Their sweat shops do more harm to America's image overseas then they do to their own images here in the states.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I don't think this requires a separate thread so here's my idea. Aristotle is known for saying the best education is to give a student a question have them go home & try to solve it, & hopefully create a new question. The basis of this is that interactive & engaging education is the best.

 

So here's my idea:

Before class starts in a home room have 1 student from each class offer a quote.

It can be anything so long as it's under 1 minute. Every day a new student will be picked & let it go round robin. The quote must be void of profanity & appropriate to morality. The teacher can entertain a discuss if they wish for about 5 minutes on the quote. Or they can simply begin class.

 

It would seem to me this would be the easiest & cheapest action to begin the road of endoctrinating American kids with core themes of morality. Best of all it will demonstrate to them the power of free speech. If you wish to quote Lenon or Lenin so be it. Imagine the free expression of ideas occuring in schools across America every day at the start of school. What simple yet powerful measure could better further the melting pot?

 

Sure there might be some racists, & others amongst the class that will use their

time to incite immoral thoughts. But the best way to defeat these ideas is to challenge them rather than silence them. It would be the job of the teacher to initiate that challenge if a student doesn't beat them to it. No immoral ideology should ever go unchallenged in a class room.

 

An atheist can stand up & quote Aristotle, a Buddhist can quote Buddha, a Jew can quote Moses, a Muslim can quote from the Koran, an asian can quote Confuscious, & a Christian can quote Jesus, & so on & so forth.

[BrandoFan]

Best of all it will demonstrate to them the power of free speech. If you wish to quote Lenon or Lenin so be it

 

Hey, you leave Ilytch out of this, mmkay?

[BrandoFan]

a Jew can quote Moses

 

How 'bout Rambam and Rashi, can they quote them?

[JUGGERNAUT]

This one is tough & if you feel it requires a new thread let me know.

 

The topic: Gender benders : genetists allow us to play God

Geneticists in support of a CLE couple wishing to fix the sex of their unborn children did exactly that. Conception occured invitro & the genes were altered before development of the embryos to create 2 boys. My memory fails me, but I think they had 7 girls up to that point.

 

Now this is case where you sympathize with the couple but can't help seeing how this can drastically alter demographics if left to become a mass-market industry. The ethical & moral question is whether the marketplace should be allowed to alter the demographics that are clearly defined in nature. Nature tips the scales in favor of women because the role they play in reproduction. Abortion in China & other parts of the world is already being used to counter nature's predication. In 20 yrs China will have a shortage of women.

 

I believe this should be viewed in no lesser terms of seriousness than atomic power is. Just because we have the science to use nucs doesn't mean we ever should. gender selection should fall under that category.

 

This comes on the heels of news out of Chicago on just how advanced genetic engineering is becoming. I will save that for another "end of the world" thread because there really isn't anything we can do about it. It certainly looks like the science of genetics is the modern world's version of pandora's box.

http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=18509

[JUGGERNAUT]

Sargent Darby (sp?) I salute you! A true American hero!

It is perposterous to think that without his actions our highest chain of command would not be aware of the serious nature of the pictures.

 

To you AP exam applicants here at SOXTALK I salute you as well. There are roughly 1.5 million applicants a year now & though that number seems large %-wise in comparison to the numbers that take either the SAT or ACT it is rare. You are a rare breed & your intelligence is severely needed in America today.

 

Rumsfeld today brought to mind what is come. Many more pictures & videos of similar abuse. This is the powder-keg to leave him with a dishonorable legacy. It's sad given his many years of service but when you hear his name from this day forward they will forever be associated with the pictures we have seen today & the pictures & video coming tommorrow.