America's Culture War

[sox4lifeinPA]

In that so much of what you say is a riff on the non-trained teacher of Sunday School message as opposed to a systematic study of the Scriptures, and you respond with insults, there is no grounds to dialogue with you.

 

 

in other words... I'm the only biblically trained person around here, I have to be right, and no one else can touch my interpretations because of that fact.

 

 

ok, I'm calling it out... B-freaking-S. I'm tired of this arguement and it's crap theology. Read Acts for crying outloud. Peter was an uneducated and lower class fisherman who stood before the Sanhedrin, the upper of the ups in old testament trained Jewish scholars. They recognized his knowledge of the scriptures and were amazed, but none of that had to do with his years spent studying the torah.

 

Get your head out of your asses, all of you. While I respect the knowledge that Vince does have, he's just a man and any one of us can reveal truths through our words, if the spirit is with us. This notion of scholar vs sunday school teacher is utter crap and I'm not letting it slide anymore.

 

If it works for you, go your way with God's blessings. When you try to univeralize your sectarian beliefs, be wary you do not commit an offense against the ecumenicty of the Church

 

I don't think I've ever heard a better case of heed your own advice. and if I hear "radically inclusive" one more time I'm going to vomit all over myself. read the freakin gospels.

 

 

now back to Juggernaught:

 

Jesus himself defined the greatest commandment in the Golden Rule.

 

actually it's Love your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and THEN the love others as you love yourselves....

 

 

With this in mind the greatest books of the Bible & the ones that speak the most for today are those written by the St. Paul. If you were to plot the growth in numbers of Christians vs Bible books it would be an exponential curve that shows it's greatest growth during the time of St. Paul. His story alone is one that again measured against mathematical probabilities is 1 in a million & no other figure in history parallels it amongst so many diverse cultures. St Paul being a Roman wrote the most with respect to morality in a modern society. Rome is considered are most closest cousin to the ancient world with respect to how are society is governed today.

 

interesting enough, I've read/heard that Paul most likely wasn't the big wig as he's reflected in the NT. Barnabas and Peter most likely were the John Piper's and Max Lucado's of the day, and this was the "thorn in my flesh" that Paul talked about. He probably struggled with the fact that he went from Hero (as a pharisee) to Zero and didn't receive the huge accolades as he did when he was killing Christians versus coverting them.

[Steff]

I don't think I've ever heard a better case of heed your own advice. and if I hear "radically inclusive" one more time I'm going to vomit all over myself. read the freakin gospels.

[cwsox]

PA you are mis-reading

 

my response is to someone who has been proclaiming his expertise in googling as the supreme master of education

 

that is in no way, IN NO WAY directed at those who have done other studies such as you have

 

there are surface ways of knowng things as in sports and more in depth ways and when Jug lectures others without the in depth, but just his self procliamed google skills,that is all I was saying

 

you and many others have expertise and I directed no comments towards you and if you want to call something out, you call out nothing

 

if you look for reasons to be offended one will be but nothing, not a thing, was directed at you. My love for you in Christ is very radically inclusive, as is God's love for everyone, as revealed in the Gospels and the Book of Acts. and yet true

[cwsox]

:headshake

[Steff]

:headshake

Right back atcha Vince.

[sox4lifeinPA]

as is God's love for everyone, as revealed in the Gospels and the Book of Acts.  and yet true

 

ok, I'm totally with you. clearly we as the church need to reach every corner of this nation. This happens with a coversion through our actions and faith and not through our words. We should love all.

 

But you're missing the rest of it Vince.

 

Jesus states over and over again that the gate to heaven is narrow, and even some who spoke words of the truth and did good deeds will not enter heaven because of their unbelieving. It's that simple. Christ is the only way to heaven, if not, then his message and actions through the cross are emptied.

 

 

and steff and I just agreed on like two things in the same day...

 

 

THE END IS NYE!!!

[Queen Prawn]

If Christ is the only way to get into heaven, man a great deal of this world is screwed (Jews, Hindus, Buddists, etc.). Whatever works for ya I guess.

[Steff]

and steff and I just agreed on like two things in the same day...

 

 

THE END IS NYE!!!

Might not want to stand under a tree in the rain today

[Wong & Owens]

Jesus states over and over again that the gate to heaven is narrow, and even some who spoke words of the truth and did good deeds will not enter heaven because of their unbelieving. It's that simple. Christ is the only way to heaven, if not, then his message and actions through the cross are emptied.

OK, a question.

 

Does this mean that there can be no salvation for Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Taoists, Buddhists, Atheists or anyone else I am forgetting? So about what, 75% of the world's population is screwed, yes?

 

Hmmmmmmmm

[Queen Prawn]

OK, a question.

 

Does this mean that there can be no salvation for Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Taoists, Buddhists, Atheists or anyone else I am forgetting?  So about what, 75% of the world's population is screwed, yes?

 

Hmmmmmmmm

lol - great minds think alike.

[sox4lifeinPA]

OK, a question.

 

Does this mean that there can be no salvation for Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Taoists, Buddhists, Atheists or anyone else I am forgetting?  So about what, 75% of the world's population is screwed, yes?

 

Hmmmmmmmm

it's not my rules. I wish I understood it better, but I know that God's awesomeness and His glory are the real point to this whole thing. I'm sorry that people do not choose His path.

 

 

and you can save about 7 of those "m's" on that hmm. am I alone in that none of us have it completely figured out? or should I join you on the pompous side of life?

[Queen Prawn]

I like the old joke of St. Peter showing some new arrivies the digs and telling them they have to be quiet and tip-toe past this brick building. When asked why they had to do that, he replies, 'Oh, those are the Christians, they think they are the only ones here.'

 

Yeah, I probably screwed it up, and it's just a joke so don't ... sorry can't do it. Just don't flame me.

[Wong & Owens]

it's not my rules. I wish I understood it better, but I know that God's awesomeness and His glory are the real point to this whole thing. I'm sorry that people do not choose His path.

 

 

and you can save about 7 of those "m's" on that hmm. am I alone in that none of us have it completely figured out? or should I join you on the pompous side of life?

It has nothing to do with pomposity(is this a word?). It's been debated over and over again, with my stance on this subject being, if there is a god, and it would do something lilke this, then he/she/it can f*** itself, I want no part of god's heaven, salvation, whatever.

 

How would you explain the fate of any humans living on the western hemisphere of the planet around the time right after jesus? Was it their fault that god didn't provide them any means/resources to hear the "word?" Were ancient civilizations in South America doomed simply because they had no way of knowing what god intended? How can you follow jesus, if you weren't even aware he existed?

[BrandoFan]

Does this mean that there can be no salvation for Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Taoists, Buddhists, Atheists or anyone else I am forgetting?  So about what, 75% of the world's population is screwed, yes?

Of course. The % is much, much since I assume you can't fool God and many Christians won't make it either.

 

But worry not, old chap -- all the right people will be where WE are going.

 

Heil Hell and all that

[BrandoFan]

:headshake

Don't you love it when friendships are broken over silliest of s***?

[Steff]

Don't you love it when friendships are broken over silliest of s***?

It's a shame.. you should mend your fences.

[JUGGERNAUT]

After reading the past posts I think you all now have a clear picture of why I did not want to involve scripture in this thread. Cwsox you may be happy with your opinion on the meaning of the scriptures & you're denial in believing that the NT carries greater weight on faith & morals than the OT, but the majority of theologians, not to mention the structure of the mass itself states your wrong. There is a reason why both Catholics & Protestants read from the NT vs OT 2-1 at weekly & daily services: because the only value in the OT scriptures is that which supports the foundation of morality outlined in the NT. Prophecy is the most important link between the 2.

So to dispute this is showing ignorance of the faith.

 

Now some of you might think my last sentence is arrogant or demeaning but what else is one to say when someone professes their personal opinion as the only truth & it is contrary to the standard norm in the faith? You can't call that person mistaken because they have an agenda in doing so. So the least harshest reference in ignorance.

 

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It's apparent by some of you that continue to use circular arguments like defending hedonism by defining it as being solely the opposite of moralism that you seem to think this culture war is about advocating the legislation of morality. It's not. Historically an attempt to do results in amplifying the very vice one is trying to regulate or limit. No this is about education & endoctrination. Not outlawing vices.

Christianity is not about imposing morality. It's about spreading the teachings of morality. Like every other human organization it has it's good seeds & bad & it has people that try to use it for good & for evil. That is the way of our species. There is good & bad in all of us & in any organization we belong to. It's just simply human nature. That is why an attempt to impose morality should be scrutinized to no end.

Usually behind the attempt is a power broker(s) that is attempting to use a movement to establish greater power & control. That's what history shows us.

 

My education comes from no less than 200 credits as an undergrad & grad. I never took rudimentary classes in college because I placed out of them. This allowed me to specialize my education into both engineering & social sciences. If you believe that you will always be able to find surveys & stats to back up an argument your simply living in a dream world. But to believe that an argument can be supported solely on a personal opinion is equally flawed. Inevitably you have to do what most social scientists do : draw inferences upon the information at hand. You correlate information from different sources to draw an educated assumption of the behavior of that information. In the little time I have to devote to this site that is what I try to do.

 

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The culture war is real & as much as you choose to ignore it, things are going to get further divisive. Your hatred for preachers or those who wish to have an equal voice in American schools is not going to deter their devotion & will. Nor should it. Hatred & persecution from those who fear such values being mentioned in schools should never be looked upon as valid. Free speech is a much greater issue in what is taught in schools than whether Stern should have the right to entertain you over public air waves. That is the central issue of this war.

 

The core central issues in America's culture war today are:

abortion, religious persecution, safe-sex, same-sex relations, gambling, & human rights. There are of course many others but these are the main ones.

 

Each of these issues should be explored in detail in our school systems. Rather than slant the context of each issue (what occurs today) simply present them in a matter of fact context & leave the student to decide their position on them. Endoctrination is expected by the family, Church, or guardians of the child & not the school. But the school should never slant a position so as to threaten that endoctrination. The school should always teach in a matter of fact context and nothing more.

 

================================

 

Today's issue is gambling.

A poltician in IL has gone so far as to refer to gambling as a tax on the poor because of it's addicttive behavior. Now you can either deny that society has a responsible to limit or regulate that behavior or you can accept it.

 

Based on all of the behavioral science studies to date the addiction is strong enough to where if it was classified as a disease it would be epidemic in proportion. With this in mind I do believe that it should be regulated & with current tech that is certainly possible. We have limits on drinking, driving, & other areas of life where addiction can & does affect society. Gambling is no different. Tech should be used to limit the amount of time & frequency of times that an individual can play. Of course this requires a personal id to gamble & violates the right to gamble anonymously but I feel it's a worthy trade off.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Of course.  The % is much, much since I assume you can't fool God and many Christians won't make it either.

 

But worry not, old chap -- all the right people will be where WE are going.

 

Heil Hell and all that

I'm glad you asked this question because it's often misunderstood.

The core theme in Christianity is do not judge lest thee be judged by your own criteria.

This applies to salvation as well.

 

Christians are called upon to pray for departed souls regardless of their ideology or sins. Yes that means praying for Hitler, Stalin, & the likes. The philosophy behind this is that if you true believe that God is all-merciful, all-forgiving, & all-loving then it does you no service to your own salvation to define boundaries on God's. As a Christian though you may hate Saddam or Bin Laden for the murderous acts they have committed against others God still expects you to show mercy & kindness through prayers for their souls.

[BrandoFan]

I'm glad you asked this question because it's often misunderstood.

 

I didn't ask a question.

 

And word to the wise.....CW is not just some literalist schmuck when it comes to understanding of the Scriptures and the greater Theology. You're definately WAY over your head on this one.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I didn't ask a question. 

 

And word to the wise.....CW is not just some literalist schmuck when it comes to understanding of the Scriptures and the greater Theology.  You're definately WAY over your head on this one.

I doubt that very much. I'll gladly put my 12+ yrs of studying scriptures up against his any day. Especially since I've written papers on the subject for ND.

 

You're definitely wrong in your presumption.

 

Technically you quoted a question & it is the quote function of this board that lost that information. It does not carry over inheritance level of quotes.

[southsider2k5]

I doubt that very much.  I'll gladly put my 12+ yrs of studying scriptures up against his any day.  Especially since I've written papers on the subject for ND. 

 

You're definitely wrong in your presumption.

 

Technically you quoted a question & it is the quote function of this board that lost that information.  It does not carry over inheritance level of quotes.

Seriously dude, do you know anything about cw's backround? You probably should know that before you go shooting off your mouth.

[JUGGERNAUT]

TGOWT:

Does this mean that there can be no salvation for Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Taoists, Buddhists, Atheists or anyone else I am forgetting? So about what, 75% of the world's population is screwed, yes?

 

I'm glad you asked this question because it's often misunderstood.

The core theme in Christianity is do not judge lest thee be judged by your own criteria.

This applies to salvation as well.

 

Christians are called upon to pray for departed souls regardless of their ideology or sins. Yes that means praying for Hitler, Stalin, & the likes.  The philosophy behind this is that if you true believe that God is all-merciful, all-forgiving, & all-loving then it does you no service to your own salvation to define boundaries on God's.  As a Christian though you may hate Saddam or Bin Laden for the murderous acts they have committed against others God still expects you to show mercy & kindness through prayers for their souls.

It's ridiculous that I have to go back & quote the original question when both the appearance of the question is early in the thread & the answer clearly infers upon the subject matter of the original question but it's obvious some of you are having problems keeping track of these things. So I've included the question in the post.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Seriously dude, do you know anything about cw's backround?  You probably should know that before you go shooting off your mouth.

I'll make this simple for you in case you weren't paying attention. Whether he's a clergy man, a writer, or any other acclaimed profession for which you feel he should be exalted it will not change a thing. It is the message & not the messenger to which I will respond. If your out to make this personal that's your greivance & not mine.

[JUGGERNAUT]

That is not to criticise you.  If it works for you, go your way with God's blessings.  When you try to univeralize your sectarian beliefs, be wary you do not commit an offense against the ecumenicty of the Church.  Be happy with where you are at and stop laying your burdens on others for the weight of the Gospels is not with you. But God is with you as the One who loves you in Grace and I embrace you as my fellow believer and pray for love and joy to you and your spouse and all your family!!!!

CW, I apologize for the insults. I hope you can understand that when I visit the thread & read your posts as well as the others budgeted by time I try to respond to all at once.

Sometimes the tone of some can overshadow the tone of others. Some of them are inflamatory & designed to solicit that kind of response.

 

I do believe that the preponderance of the evidence suggests you are wrong that there is not an apparent value system in Christian faiths that gives greater attention & credence to the NT over the OT. If you wish to debate it in a respectful manner I would welcome that. I have over 12+ yrs of theological study both at the high school & college level so I think I am qualified to do so.

 

I will set up a different thread to debate this because I do not believe it plays a major role in the topic of this thread.

[JUGGERNAUT]

It probably got lost in the Bible discussion so I'll post it again.

Today's issue: Should gambling be regulated towards moderation?

 

IMHO: Yes. The consensus by behavioral sciences is that binge & every day gambling takes on a similar addiction to that of alcoholism. Social problems stemming from losses are no less impacting on society than drunk drivers. The technology exists to enforce moderation. It requires giving up privacy in order to gamble but I think it's warranted because it's no less important than applying for loans or margin accts.

 

To limit the invasion of privacy paypal & bank services could still be used but the account would have to be setup as a gamblng type so that the regulations would enforce the moderation. It could not be linked to other accounts. As for cash gambling that is harder to regulate but not impossible. It would require a valid id at which an account would be entered at the casino & that account would be governed by the same regulations.

 

It will be tough to enforce casinos to share customer information so that would inevitably remain a loop hole: a cash gambler could skirt the limits by casino hopping. But even so, these measures would still greatly assist in moderating personal gambling activity.