Suing admins for religious persecution

[JUGGERNAUT]

I believe most of you do believe that Americans have a right to be free from religious persecution. But clearly that is what is happening in schools across America.

 

I likewise believe that most of you do not support school prayer.

So how about a compromise?

 

Would you support a Federal law that made it a criminal act to bar a student from attending school because the child wished to either:

1) carry a Bible

2) wear a crucifix

3) pray the rosary at lunch

 

In other words a Federal law strengthing the right to exercise one's religion in a lawful manner.

 

Most of you believe these rights exist today in schools but there are many cases & some that are working there way through the state & federal courts that prove otherwise.

 

Today the entire matter is a civil one & the damage is done before the courts can provide action. By making it a criminal one action can be taken immediately to get the child back in school & remove the admin from his position.

 

To me this is pretty clear cut because it's not a he said she said scenario. Either the child is permitted to attend the school or he/she is not.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Any child suspended for actions such as those should be immediately let back into school. The administrator should be required to justify the suspension by showing how the student was disruptive or otherwise harmed the learning environment.

 

I think it would be a good idea to make some nation-wide precedent that administrators should back the f*** off, but I'm not sure about making it an actual crime. What would the charge be?

 

I voted "Yes with stipulations."

[JUGGERNAUT]

Any child suspended for actions such as those should be immediately let back into school.  The administrator should be required to justify the suspension by showing how the student was disruptive or otherwise harmed the learning environment. 

 

I think it would be a good idea to make some nation-wide precedent that administrators should back the f*** off, but I'm not sure about making it an actual crime. What would the charge be?

 

I voted "Yes with stipulations."

Believe it or not there is one on the books. Truancy laws.

It actually applies to any person preventing a child from attending school for a certain age. The Fed would simply need to expand any person to include teachers & admin on the basis of religious persecution.

 

As far as your stipulation I don't have a problem with the admin trying to provide a justification for the suspension but the child should remain in school until the courts rule on that case. I believe the act of an admin being arrested & charged with the crime at the school would be enough of a detterant to prevent this abuse.

 

The law would be clearly posted in the school itself but in the case it did happen

the parent would simply need to call DCFS explain the situation & the police would arrive on the scene. Even in that case, if the admin allowed the student back they would be released & the parent would still be afforded the right to sue in a civil sense for the humiliation of their child.

[CrimsonWeltall]

As far as your stipulation I don't have a problem with the admin trying to provide a justification for the suspension but the child should remain in school until the courts rule on that case.

 

Isn't this something that could be done by a school board or other group in the educational heirarchy?

 

I believe the act of an admin being arrested & charged with the crime at the school would be enough of a detterant to prevent this abuse.

 

Wow. I didn't think you meant that cops would show up at the school and take the guy away. Some asshole kids who hate their administrators could have fun with that.

 

What about something like this:

1) Admin suspends kid. Parents have access to phone number of higher official to which they can give their story and file a complaint.

2) Official calls the admin and gets their side of the story (further investigation ensues?). If suspension was bulls***, admin is warned/suspended/fined/whatever and kid is immediately reinstated. If not, the kid stays suspended.

 

I suppose a problem might occur where the official would tend to side with the administrator rather than what the parent says. However, in your version, I think it could be a waste of police and court time.

[Gene Honda Civic]

I'm suing SS2k4, just for being a bad admin.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Isn't this something that could be done by a school board or other group in the educational heirarchy?

 

 

 

Wow.  I didn't think you meant that cops would show up at the school and take the guy away. Some asshole kids who hate their administrators could have fun with that.

 

What about something like this:

1) Admin suspends kid.  Parents have access to phone number of higher official to which they can give their story and file a complaint.

2) Official calls the admin and gets their side of the story (further investigation ensues?). If suspension was bulls***, admin is warned/suspended/fined/whatever and kid is immediately reinstated. If not, the kid stays suspended.

 

I suppose a problem might occur where the official would tend to side with the administrator rather than what the parent says. However, in your version, I think it could be a waste of police and court time.

See all of that doesn't prevent the crime from being committed.

That is the child not being able to attend school.

 

Keep in mind the guy doesn't get arrested unless he bars the kid from going to school.

So in most cases the kid after being sent home would show up with the police & his parents to let the kid back in.

 

I pity the kid who tries to exploit a teacher under such circumstances because they can be arrested for obstruction of justice. I don't think any kid would try it as his parents would be notified, the police could pursue the case in juvenile court, & of course there would be substantial fines. Obstruction of justice charges can be very costly.

 

It would be very foolish for an admin to suspend a child for prayer, a bible, a rosary, the koran, etc. because the law would immediately require a banner posted in every principal's office reminded them of the law. No admin/teacher could claim ignorance as a defense.

[Pale Hose Jon]

If they are disrupting the learning of others, their suspension is waranted.

 

I personally HATE people who tote around bibles, maybe this is just because i am a Deist, but still i hate people with bibles.

[FlaSoxxJim]

You're rolling tonight, Juggs.

 

For every student who has been suspended because they

1) carry a Bible

2) wear a crucifix

3) pray the rosary at lunch...

 

How many have been beaten up, belittled, killed, etc., because they

1) are gay

2) are believed to be gay

3) look gay to some mouthbreather toting arond a Bible ans an IQ of 60

 

That's where the laws shoul focus, don't you think?

[BrandoFan]

How many have been beaten up, belittled, killed, etc., because they

1) are gay

2) are believed to be gay

3) look gay to some mouthbreather toting arond a Bible ans an IQ of 60

 

You can't be gay if the majority doesn't deem it right for you to be gay. Democracy, hello!

 

And the bigot-bullies in your examples are just unsuspecting enforcers of the morally and socially proper norms; the means they employ aren't always palatable, but the message is clear: don't be a freak.

[JUGGERNAUT]

You're rolling tonight, Juggs.

 

For every student who has been suspended because they

1) carry a Bible

2) wear a crucifix

3) pray the rosary at lunch...

 

How many have been beaten up, belittled, killed, etc., because they

1) are gay

2) are believed to be gay

3) look gay to some mouthbreather toting arond a Bible ans an IQ of 60

 

That's where the laws shoul focus, don't you think?

If a teacher/admin is involved & that prevents you from attending school then absolutely blow the whistle on them. But if it's kids well the best you can do is tell a teacher/admin but that's just like ratting on cheaters or bullies. There are inevitable consequences that no amount of legislation will prevent.

[FlaSoxxJim]

If a teacher/admin is involved & that prevents you from attending school then absolutely blow the whistle on them. But if it's kids well the best you can do is tell a teacher/admin but that's just like ratting on cheaters or bullies. There are inevitable consequences that no amount of legislation will prevent.

Let me see if I have it straight. If there is physical or emotional abuse heaped by students on gay/ostensably gay students in a public school setting where parents have a reasonable expectation that their kids are in a safe environment, it's an 'inevitable consequence.' But if school boards, etc., decide to keep that minute of prayer out of public schools then that's a national catastrophe worthy of considering a change in legislation at teh federal level?

 

Okeedokee.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Let me see if I have it straight.  If there is physical or emotional abuse heaped by students on gay/ostensably gay students in a public school setting where parents have a reasonable expectation that their kids are in a safe environment, it's an 'inevitable consequence.'  But if school boards, etc., decide to keep that minute of prayer out of public schools then that's a national catastrophe worthy of considering a change in legislation at teh federal level?

 

Okeedokee. 

Trying to sift through a point in what you're saying is a chore.

What are you trying to say?

Are you trying to say that no child should be allowed to carry a bible, wear a crucifix, pray the rosary in a public school because YOU believe this will lead to gay people in the school getting beat up on?

 

Is that what you're trying to say? Do you know how stupid that sounds?

[sox4lifeinPA]

Trying to sift through a point in what you're saying is a chore.

What are you trying to say?

Are you trying to say that no child should be allowed to carry a bible, wear a crucifix, pray the rosary in a public school because YOU believe this will lead to gay people in the school getting beat up on?

 

Is that what you're trying to say? Do you know how stupid that sounds?

he's trying to say that we shouldn't care about the freedom to carry a bible where ever you please. He's saying that because there are more people being persecuted due to their sexual orientation than of carrying a bible, we should care about the first more than the latter. We should care about both, but that's hard to comprehend for someone that just wants to see anyone with a grain of faith be humiliated by some scientific proof or theory. There are things in this world that will never be explained so why not stick to a line of arguing that doesn't involve eliminating what you perceive as incorrect. I may not agree with the homosexual lifestyle but would never say "stop liking the dong, Jim." Where as, some how the opposite does not seem to be the prevailing thought.

[sox4lifeinPA]

If they are disrupting the learning of others, their suspension is waranted.

 

I personally HATE people who tote around bibles, maybe this is just because i am a Deist, but still i hate people with bibles.

yeah, that kid in the corner reading his bible is just such a problem in class. Stop reading to yourself you F-ing Jesus Freak, it's totally disrupting our studying

[Wong & Owens]

No, a kid who brings his Bible to school, wears his crucifix and prays the rosary at lunch should be left alone the same as a kid who wears his SOX hat to school, with his Ordonez jersey, and reads the baseball almanac at lunch. Freedom of expression doesn't exclude religious ideas.

[Mathew]

No, a kid who brings his Bible to school, wears his crucifix and prays the rosary at lunch should be left alone the same as a kid who wears his SOX hat to school, with his Ordonez jersey, and reads the baseball almanac at lunch.  Freedom of expression doesn't exclude religious ideas.

Now we're talking about my religion.

[JUGGERNAUT]

he's trying to say that we shouldn't care about the freedom to carry a bible where ever you please. He's saying that because there are more people being persecuted due to their sexual orientation than of carrying a bible, we should care about the first more than the latter. We should care about both, but that's hard to comprehend for someone that just wants to see anyone with a grain of faith be humiliated by some scientific proof or theory. There are things in this world that will never be explained so why not stick to a line of arguing that doesn't involve eliminating what you perceive as incorrect. I may not agree with the homosexual lifestyle but would never say "stop liking the dong, Jim." Where as, some how the opposite does not seem to be the prevailing thought.

You're post appears hostile but I will try to be kind ..again.

 

There are over 100 million people in America who care whether a child can carry a bible, koran, or any other religious book to school with them to read during their free time. So to state that you're cares are more important than theirs is arrogant.

 

Now to reply to your specifics:

Is the teacher/admin causing the abuse of the homosexual?

If not, why do you think any authoritative entity would be able to address that?

If there is no representation of authority that can address it then would it not fall into a classification as something we have no control over?

 

What makes you think that there is anything that can be done to prevent abuse of homo sexuals any more so than to prevent abuse of weak kids? Given that weak kids are picked on by & large more than homo sexuals at high school why should we ignore the abuse of the weak kids & deal only with the abuse of the homo sexuals?

 

I understand why you choose this direction in your argument but it really has no basis. Being able to bring a rosary to school so that you can say it to lunch is an issue dealing with teachers/admins. People in authority. It's two entirely different issues. Two entirely different sets of problems. One you can actually do something about since they have to answer to authority & one you can do little about.

 

Though I might add, that teaching morality at an early age would probably help stop the abuse of both the homosexual & weak kids.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Trying to sift through a point in what you're saying is a chore.

What are you trying to say?

Are you trying to say that no child should be allowed to carry a bible, wear a crucifix, pray the rosary in a public school because YOU believe this will lead to gay people in the school getting beat up on?

 

Is that what you're trying to say? Do you know how stupid that sounds?

You have to know that is not what I am saying.

 

I have no problem whatsoever with kids carrying bibles wherever they want to or wearing crucifixes, Star of Davids, ankhs, whatever. And let anyone who wants to get together before or after formal school hours and pray the rosary, worship a head of lettuce, or whatever else their faith compels them to do. Just not during the precious few hours of formal class time that make up the school day.

 

I'm saying that for the few very rare instances where students have been rebuked for simply carrying a Bible or wearing affectations of their faith, there are COUNTLESS (I know how you LOVE the caps...) cases where gay/suspected gay students are made the victims of prejudice, persecuted, physically/mentally/verbally abused, etc. For you to consider the outlier cases of suppressed religious suppression to be outrageous and actionable offenses while at the same time the growing number of incidents in which kids are put through hell for being different doesn't register as something requiring attention is troubling. Is it not?

 

Equally troubling is your inability to keep away from personal attacks in your posts. Without bothering to reread, I've been called "clueless" and my posts have been declared stupid. You have been done the same with other posters in these recent threads. How about keeping to the topics at hand and refraining from the descent into personal attack?

[JUGGERNAUT]

You have to know that is not what I am saying.

 

I have no problem whatsoever with kids carrying bibles wherever they want to or wearing crucifixes, Star of Davids, ankhs, whatever.  And let anyone who wants to get together before or after formal school hours and pray the rosary, worship a head of lettuce, or whatever else their faith compels them to do.  Just not during the precious few hours of formal class time that make up the school day.

 

I'm saying that for the few very rare instances where students have been rebuked for simply carrying a Bible or wearing affectations of their faith, there are COUNTLESS (I know how you LOVE the caps...) cases where gay/suspected gay students are made the victims of prejudice, persecuted, physically/mentally/verbally abused, etc.  For you to consider the outlier cases of suppressed religious suppression to be outrageous and actionable offenses while at the same time the growing number of incidents in which kids are put through hell for being different doesn't register as something requiring attention is troubling.  Is it not?

 

Equally troubling is your inability to keep away from personal attacks in your posts.  Without bothering to reread, I've been called "clueless" and my posts have been declared stupid.  You have been done the same with other posters in these recent threads.  How about keeping to the topics at hand and refraining from the descent into personal attack?

A personal attack is something like so-and-so you're an idiot. There is a personal reference in that attack. Referring to what someone says as being idiotic, clueless, or stupid is not a personal attack. You are attacking what they said & not who they are.

In a sports message board it's assumed that these things are never taken seriously

and are par for the course. However; I do believe that when others call attention to them in a serious light (like you have) they should stop. It may get boring but it will be more civil.

 

If you are that concerned over kids abuse on other kids in schools for whatever reason (weak, gay, brainy, etc.) then I suggest you start a new thread & discuss it. This thread deals specifically with the issue of admins suspending students for showing any Christian religious association in their non-class time at schools. For this case to be working it's way up to the Supreme court seeking a class action ruling it certainly is much greater than a few or rare cases. But once again to draw distinction to your central concern, abuse by a teacher/admin in any circumstance is far more serious

than abuse by a kid.

[FlaSoxxJim]

We should care about both, but that's hard to comprehend for someone that just wants to see anyone with a grain of faith be humiliated by some scientific proof or theory. There are things in this world that will never be explained so why not stick to a line of arguing that doesn't involve eliminating what you perceive as incorrect. I may not agree with the homosexual lifestyle but would never say "stop liking the dong, Jim." Where as, some how the opposite does not seem to be the prevailing thought.

You are correct in that I think we should address the kids getting their asses kicked for being different before we make the rare (though incorrect IMO) cases of suppressed freedom of religious expression (through what is worn or carried under one's arm) a federal case.

 

PA, I'm not sure how after we've been up and down this you can openly suggest I'm looking to suppress religious viewpoints. I defend as vehemently as anyone the right to practice any religion you care to as long as it does not impact those around you who don't want to be bothered. Yes, that means I am against mandating a formal period of time set aside in public schools to pray/reflect/etc. As for the rest, let me reiterate"

 

"I have no problem whatsoever with kids carrying bibles wherever they want to or wearing crucifixes, Star of Davids, ankhs, whatever. And let anyone who wants to get together before or after formal school hours and pray the rosary, worship a head of lettuce, or whatever else their faith compels them to do. Just not during the precious few hours of formal class time that make up the school day."

 

You also do me a grave injustice by insinuating I'm out to prove the non-existence of the Big Man on the Cloud, as I am not. His existence/non-existence is simply not a professional concern of mine as a scientist. It doesn't matter one way or the other, though like everyone I have my own personal beliefs on the matter. Similarrly, I am not trying to humuliate anyone with faith. I only I just find it funny when people of faith who, by definition, don't require proof in order to follow a spiritual path try to come up with some sort of proof validating their choice to follow that path. Proof and the search for it, is the realm of the scientist. Faith - and the feeling of it and the following of it - is the realm of the believer who neither requires proof nor is qualified to suggest that they possess any. Ne'er the twain shall meet (unless it's at Denny's over a breakfast skillet).

 

I nonetheless appreciate your allowing me to "like the dong." I can only assume you mean Long Duk Dong from "16 Candles" fame, right?

[FlaSoxxJim]

No, a kid who brings his Bible to school, wears his crucifix and prays the rosary at lunch should be left alone the same as a kid who wears his SOX hat to school, with his Ordonez jersey, and reads the baseball almanac at lunch.  Freedom of expression doesn't exclude religious ideas.

Spot on, as usual.

[FlaSoxxJim]

You're post appears hostile but I will try to be kind ..again.

 

There are over 100 million people in America who care whether a child can carry a bible, koran, or any other religious book to school with them to read during their free time.  So to state that you're cares are more important than theirs is arrogant.

 

Now to reply to your specifics:

Is the teacher/admin causing the abuse of the homosexual?

If not, why do you think any authoritative entity would be able to address that?

If there is no representation of authority that can address it then would it not fall into a classification as something we have no control over?

 

What makes you think that there is anything that can be done to prevent abuse of homo sexuals any more so than to prevent abuse of weak kids?  Given that weak kids are picked on by & large more than homo sexuals at high school why should we ignore the abuse of the weak kids & deal only with the abuse of the homo sexuals?

 

I understand why you choose this direction in your argument but it really has no basis.  Being able to bring a rosary to school so that you can say it to lunch is an issue dealing with teachers/admins.  People in authority.  It's two entirely different issues.  Two entirely different sets of problems.  One you can actually do something about since they have to answer to authority & one you can do little about.

 

Though I might add, that teaching morality at an early age would probably help stop the abuse of both the homosexual & weak kids.

Was this response supposed to be directed at PA? If so, you are firing shots across the bow of a likely ally in this.

 

I'll leave my concerns about the gay-bashed kids out of this then. It was only brought up by way of suggesting that I think there are more pressing matters than freedom of religious expression in school.

 

I will say that I think it is incorrect (and unethical) to shoulder-shrugging away any kind of violence in schools and say 'well, what are ya gonna do.' These are the kids that take it and take it and take it and.... then there is another Columbine. Then you will likely agree that there is a problem with violence in school (caused by Godlessness, no doubt), though you were unconcerned by the precursors to this culminating violent act which were somehow seen as unavoidable.

 

Last week I had my 6-year old girl's assistant principal tell me about one of those 'unavoidable' things happening to her at school. She was assaulted on the playground by a 4th grade boy and girl – the girl tried to pull off my daughter's clothes while the boy fully exposed himself to my daughter and a classmate. Just good old schoolground fun and 'what can you do about it?' according to the assistant principal. Well, she is wrong and there is actually quite a bit that can be done about it – if the administrators care to do it. There is supposed to be a police report filed when something like this (or kid on kid violence in school) happens in our county and one was not, of course. Turns out there have been a lot of things like this where the appropriate process has been ignored. Parents have a reasonable expectation that they are sending their kids into a safe environment every day. I think this is as pressing a concern as any in the school systems today.

 

[/end tangent]

 

Cut to the chase: students in public schools should be allowed to wear jewelry depicting the crucifix, Jewish star, ankh, wiccan forest diety, etc., so long as it is not universally offensive or hateful (e.g., swastika). They should be allowed to bring the Bible or any age-appropriate literary work to school to be read during their free time, study hall, lunch hour, etc. (again barring hatemongering material). They should not be given a formally recognized chunk of time during the school day to make a public display of their faith in the form of prayer. This holds for all kids, all faiths, all denominations, There is a lot of other time in the day.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Was this response supposed to be directed at PA? If so, you are firing shots across the bow of a likely ally in this.

 

I don't think EspnJohn realized that I was attacking you and not he... it's ok.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Was this response supposed to be directed at PA?  If so, you are firing shots across the bow of a likely ally in this.

 

I'll leave my concerns about the gay-bashed kids out of this then.  It was only brought up by way of suggesting that I think there are more pressing matters than freedom of religious expression in school. 

 

I will say that I think it is incorrect (and unethical) to shoulder-shrugging away any kind of violence in schools and say 'well, what are ya gonna do.'  These are the kids that take it and take it and take it and.... then there is another Columbine.  Then you will likely agree that there is a problem with violence in school (caused by Godlessness, no doubt), though you were unconcerned by the precursors to this culminating violent act which were somehow seen as unavoidable.

 

Last week I had my 6-year old girl's assistant principal tell me about one of those 'unavoidable' things happening to her at school.  She was assaulted on the playground by a 4th grade boy and girl – the girl tried to pull off my daughter's clothes while the boy fully exposed himself to my daughter and a classmate.  Just good old schoolground fun and 'what can you do about it?' according to the assistant principal.  Well, she is wrong and there is actually quite a bit that can be done about it – if the administrators care to do it.  There is supposed to be a police report filed when something like this (or kid on kid violence in school) happens in our county and one was not, of course.  Turns out there have been a lot of things like this where the appropriate process has been ignored.  Parents have a reasonable expectation that they are sending their kids into a safe environment every day.  I think this is as pressing a concern as any in the school systems today.

 

[/end tangent]

 

Cut to the chase: students in public schools should be allowed to wear jewelry depicting the crucifix, Jewish star, ankh, wiccan forest diety, etc., so long as it is not universally offensive or hateful (e.g., swastika).  They should be allowed to bring  the Bible or any age-appropriate literary work to school to be read during their free time, study hall, lunch hour, etc. (again barring hatemongering material).  They should not be given a formally recognized chunk of time during the school day to make a public display of their faith in the form of prayer.  This holds for all kids, all faiths, all denominations, There is a lot of other time in the day.

Last post on this thread for today. I need to budget time on this.

 

To be honest I'm not sure who that reply was for. They no longer appear on the page.

In general it was for any one advocating religious persecution is ok. In my opinion there should be no distinction between a child who shows up to school wearing HP attire or with HP stuff & a HP book & one who shows up with a Bible a rosary. The latter should not be suspended while the other is welcome. That's the gneeral point.

 

This thread is not about school prayer. This thread is about religious persecution.

We are talking individual kids being suspended by admins for these reasons alone.

 

On the issue of "bullies" in school I'll create a separate thread so we can discuss it in full. There are solutions but they differ in cost. I do believe integrating a system of morality in social science/world history can help change the behavior of some, but there will always be bad apples. There are technological ways to address them so let's discuss this in a separate thread.

[israel4ever]

Freedom of Sppech and Expression are protected by the Constitution, unlsee that speech/expression is incendiary.

 

I don't see how weraing a cross can be considered incendiary.