Morality or Ethics class in Elem & HS

[JUGGERNAUT]

It seems to me this might be the best solution to school prayer.

 

Would you support adding ethics/morality classes to the general ciriculum of elem, & hs students in America?

 

Now before you think this is a guise for religion it's not.

There are ethics classes taught in engineering schools that have ZERO religious affiliations. They used to be elective but now they are mandatory because of the importance ethics play in engineering decisions.

 

My guess would be that these classes would start in about 5th or 6th grade because of the reading level required. There's a wealth of information available on human rights, sociology, & psychology to fill out enough class material.

 

I believe a certain degree of latitude should be provided in the class room to form collective opinions & such. That would include prayer & such provided nobody nobody objected. That makes the minority opinion the ruling one.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I think there should be. We're so busy as a society filling up kids with pop culture, porno, drugs, alcohol etc..etc.. why not give them some sort of a positive influence.

[CrimsonWeltall]

I wouldn't mind seeing a general philosophy class which could include a section on ethics at a jr high or high school level (elementary might be a bit early and hard to fit in).

 

I would also be fine with it including religious topics as long as they were presented in a fair manner.

 

Perhaps we were on a different wavelength before, JUGG. I don't see how just having kids pray teaches them anything. Trying to get kids to conform to some standard of behavior works better when it can be explained why such a standard is valuable. Discussions on ethics could do so.

[zach61]

Ethics should be taught by the parents, not the school. You can have ethics policies as a company for employees to follow, but what makes your ethics better than mine on a personal level? I don't want my kids taught some ethics by a school district that can't even teach our kids math and science.

[CrimsonWeltall]

Zach, it wouldn't be able a teaching walking in and saying "guess what, homosexuality is GOOD" or "hey jimmy the gay kid, you're an evil sinner".

 

There is plenty of material on ethics that could be presented objectively.

[Chisoxfn]

I'm all for it. The other thing I'm for is some business classes in high school, maybe even a class on handling your finances and such. It can include as simple things as balancing your check book, but also teaching kids at a young age about credit cards (being responsible with them), the stock market, a few finance type things, lots of stuff that your going to run into in life.

 

This way, those that are interested in business get a little head start for when they enter college and then the business world, while those that may not ever have an interest in business will at least understand some simple concepts that they will run into in life.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Zach, it wouldn't be able a teaching walking in and saying "guess what, homosexuality is GOOD" or "hey jimmy the gay kid, you're an evil sinner". 

 

There is plenty of material on ethics that could be presented objectively.

Something like ethics/morality would have to have a national standard. So no teacher would be able to enforce their own belief system.

 

I was thinking that at the elementary level it could be as simple as simply quoting & discussing philsophers before a social science class. This would allow Christian, Muslim, Buddhists, Jewish, Confusicts, etc ideas back into the class room. It would be confined to core principles so there is little room for teachers to explore confusing tangents.

 

As the years progress these ideas get explored greater & in high school business ethics

are introduced.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Ethics classes are a great idea. Not morality classes, ethics classes. A medical ethics class I took in college was one of the best classes I ever took.

 

But you're still kicking around in the deep end I see. Please rectify the following quotes with each other...

 

Now before you think this is a guise for religion it's not....

 

and

It seems to me this might be the best solution to school prayer.

 

and

I believe a certain degree of latitude should be provided in the class room to form collective opinions & such.  That would include prayer & such provided nobody nobody objected

 

Obviously your version of such a class IS a guise for getting religion in school. And a thinly veiled one at that.

[SuperSteve]

Yes.

[Soxy]

Yes, but only because I believe ethics is independent of God and can we taught in a secular manner.

 

Of course, from my ethics classes I think this might be a bit much for a little kid--so I would say hold off until high school when they have more critical thinking skills.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Yes, but only because I believe ethics is independent of God and can we taught in a secular manner.

 

Of course, from my ethics classes I think this might be a bit much for a little kid--so I would say hold off until high school when they have more critical thinking skills.

I disagree. Ethics classes are to specific to the area of interest. As you said you felt a medical ethics class was one of your best & I have had some good engineering ethics classes as well. But morality is more aligned with sociology & psychology & I think these need to be taught as well. I've got a unique background that included many of both ilk.

 

I am not advocating that ethics & morality classes be associated with prayer. I am advocating that if students wish to go in that direction & no one in the class objects that should be allowed to.

 

In a more general sense, I am looking more along the lines that all of the great philosophies of our times can be included in these classes. So now Christians will not only be included in this but also encouraged to learn about others.

[Soxy]

As you said you felt a medical ethics class was one of your best & I have had some good engineering ethics classes as well.

I certainly never said that. I hated Biomed ethics and the best ethics class I ever took was the Ethics of Jesus (PS I go to a PRIVATE school, and it was optional).

 

I am also not sure how your post pertains to me and my comment at all. I simply advocated secular based ethics classes.

[FlaSoxxJim]

I certainly never said that. I hated Biomed ethics and the best ethics class I ever took was the Ethics of Jesus (PS I go to a PRIVATE school, and it was optional).

 

I am also not sure how your post pertains to me and my comment at all. I simply advocated secular based ethics classes.

I was the one who had a good experience with my medical ethics class - even though I was falsely accused of plagerising a paper, but of course vindicated in the end.

 

That would be ironic, cheating on an ethics paper, huh?

 

I second your advocating of secular based ethics classes. Heady enough without injecting the Big G into the mix.

[FlaSoxxJim]

I am not advocating that ethics & morality classes be associated with prayer.  I am advocating that if students wish to go in that direction & no one in the class objects that should be allowed to.

 

In a more general sense, I am looking more along the lines that all of the great philosophies of our times can be included in these classes.  So now Christians will not only be included in this but also encouraged to learn about others.

'Go in that direction' where? In the confines of a class supposedly about ethics and supposedly 'not associated with prayer'?

 

Students are encouraged to pray until their blue in the soul, but they can do it outside of that class, right?

 

Honestly, even with the reasonable argument that private, faith-affiliated education is out of the price range for many families who would like it for their kids, how does that keep these families from pursuing religious grounding through church, Sunday school, catechism, church youth groups, family prayer, Bible Camp, community prayer groups, friggin' VeggieTales, etc...?? With all of these opportinities where willing Christians teachers and willing young Christian children can come together of their own volition and without any fear of the persecution in public schools you are concerned about, why is it so crucially important to get a minute of prayer into a public school environment where very many people (not all) do not believe it has a place?

 

The above is a sincere question. Please consider it and share your response.

[JUGGERNAUT]

'Go in that direction' where?  In the confines of a class supposedly about ethics and supposedly 'not associated with prayer'?

 

Students are encouraged to pray until their blue in the soul, but they can do it outside of that class, right?

 

Honestly, even with the reasonable argument that private, faith-affiliated education is out of the price range for many families who would like it for their kids, how does that keep these families from pursuing religious grounding through church, Sunday school, catechism, church youth groups, family prayer, Bible Camp, community prayer groups, friggin' VeggieTales, etc...??  With all of these opportinities where willing Christians teachers and willing young Christian children can come together of their own volition and without any fear of the persecution in public schools you are concerned about, why is it so crucially important to get a minute of prayer into a public school environment where very many people (not all) do not believe it has a place?

 

The above is a sincere question.  Please consider it and share your response.

Well the problem with what you mention is that all of those avenues for Christians to go to public schools & go to CCD (example) cost more $. It's kind of hard to ask a Christian to shell out double the money (which is about what it costs) to send their kids to both. Yes it's a lot less than close to 10 grand for a private school but still pretty costly.

 

In a general sense this points to school choice & how the funds for education can be used for all schooling. In my opinion this is not as complicated to implement as one would think. But it would require adjust administrative salaries to enrollment levels of a school. Which I think is the central to school reform. I do not believe teachers are as much to blame as the administrators. If the admin toughened stanards & banned cell phones during tests cheating would be a lot harder to get away with.

 

Getting back to implementation, you simply allow parents who send their kids to private schools to deduct the education cost from their taxes for elementary thru high school. This would be a state deduction that would then make it easier to track student enrollment per district in a state. So for 2004 the state would have a clear number of how many parents elected to send their kids to private schools for each district. That number would then lower the administrative pay for the schools in the district. This provides an incentive for those schools to reform.

 

I remember reading that in the state of IL there is an avg of about 1 private school for every 20 schools in a district through out the state. Some have more & some have less but overall the tax revenue loss would not be substantial. Likewise the states should have the opportunity to take that total & request Federal funds to balance the books. With this system in place it would likely lead to both reform in existing schools & greater growth in private schools but not necc religious ones.

To remain competitive I'm guessing that some religious schools would offer non-religious cirriculum with electives to fill out the religion classes. The key to all this is that there is no violation of rights because the parents decide.

[Mathew]

What's moral to one may not be to another. No f***ing way do you want a class like that at that level.

[DBAHO]

We had Religious Education in Primary (Elementary) School, or at least I think that's what it was called.

[Steff]

I think there should be.  We're so busy as a society filling up kids with pop culture, porno, drugs, alcohol etc..etc..  why not give them some sort of a positive influence.

Why don't their parents take care of this....

[DBAHO]

Why don't their parents take care of this....

Because unfortunately today sum parents don't do this while they are more concerned about their own problems e.g booze, drugs etc. :headshake

[Steff]

Something like ethics/morality would have to have a national standard.  So no teacher would be able to enforce their own belief system.

How on earth would you control such a thing..?

 

And who sets the bar at what's moral and what's not..?

[Steff]

I am also not sure how your post pertains to me and my comment at all.

He did that to me 3 times yesterday..

[Steff]

Because unfortunately today sum parents don't do this while they are more concerned about their own problems e.g booze, drugs etc.  :headshake

So leave it up to the schools...?

 

Kinda negates the needs for parents... eh?

 

And furthermore.. why is a teacher any better at teaching morality? What if the teacher is a boozer, or drug user, etc..?

[Wong & Owens]

What's moral to one may not be to another.  No f***ing way do you want a class like that at that level.

I'm with you Mathew.

 

I have a feeling that if Juggs was in charge of teaching the ethics class at school A, and I was in charge of teaching the ethics class at school B, we'd be talking about two very different classes here.

[Queen Prawn]

They mixed ethics into my engineering courses in college.

[mreye]

I've seen some of the "ethics and morality" at public schools. I don't want my kids to be taught this.