Morality or Ethics class in Elem & HS

[Texsox]

Texsox steps on soap box.

 

A note to parents.

 

Consider that your child is "home schooled". Take responsibility for the totality of your child's education, even if you sub-contract some of the education to a school system. You as a parent, are ultimately responsible. That includes how to make good ethical choices that refelct your family's values, balance a checkbook, be a good citizen, etc.

 

Off soap box.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Texsox steps on soap box.

 

A note to parents.

 

Consider that your child is "home schooled". Take responsibility for the totality of your child's education, even if you sub-contract some of the education to a school system. You as a parent, are ultimately responsible. That includes how to make good ethical choices that refelct your family's values, balance a checkbook, be a good citizen, etc.

 

Off soap box.

You people need to expand your horizons beyond your lives in America.

There are a CORE set of moral values & standards that are at the heart of the world's leading LIFE philosophies. That establishes the National Standard.

 

Not your personal belief, observation, desire, or agenda. You may think you are a leading philosopher but then it seems most of you live in a dream world. No we are talking the world's LEADING LIFE philsophies.

 

If you don't know what they are, go to the library & ask the librarian & they will be more than happy to help you

 

Again let me remind you all the behavioral science & social science data available

leads to the basic fact that by & large today's students do not mature with a good sense of ethics or morals. That reflects in society when they graduate. So to simply ignore this, or continue to blame the parents is useless. You do not solve a problem by hoping people will accept responsibility for it. The majority of parents clearly do not.

So you representing society must do so. You may not like it but that's the way a democracy works. When personal responsibility fails the nation must act.

 

Ethics & morals are not the same thing. I've tried to point this out several times but many of you either haven't had any ethics classes or simply don't get. I've had probably more of both groups than any one on this board. Ethics is geared toward individual disciplines. It doesn't even deal human psychology. Morals do.

 

To suggest that your ethics class would be a 180 deg turn from mine is a clear indication you don't know what you're talking about. Ethics in engineering is about determining the range of specifications & what is acceptable for production within that range. It discusses everything from stress limits to dollar costs for failure. It tries to impress upon the students that cutting corners to save or pocket $ has limits & you need to pay attention to them. It has nothing to do with morals, religion, or any thing else. When you think of ethics in engineering you should think more along the lines of quality assurance.

[Queen Prawn]

No Jugg - ethics as in ripping off someone else's design, designing something and approving it even though you know that someone could be hurt or killed because of cheap parts your manager/company owner mandated to use (I've seen engineers quit because of this). That type of ethics is what I was talking about.

[Texsox]

You people need to expand your horizons beyond your lives in America.

There are a CORE set of moral values & standards that are at the heart of the world's leading LIFE philosophies.  That establishes the National Standard.

 

Not your personal belief, observation, desire, or agenda.  You may think you are a leading philosopher but then it seems most of you live in a dream world.  No we are talking the world's LEADING LIFE philsophies.

 

If you don't know what they are, go to the library & ask the librarian & they will be more than happy to help you 

 

Again let me remind you all the behavioral science & social science data available

leads to the basic fact that by & large today's students do not mature with a good sense of ethics or morals.  That reflects in society when they graduate.  So to simply ignore this, or continue to blame the parents is useless. You do not solve a problem by hoping people will accept responsibility for it.  The majority of parents clearly do not.

So you representing society must do so. You may not like it but that's the way a democracy works.  When personal responsibility fails the nation must act.

 

Ethics & morals are not the same thing.  I've tried to point this out several times but many of you either haven't had any ethics classes or simply don't get. I've had probably more of both groups than any one on this board. Ethics is geared toward individual disciplines.  It doesn't even deal human psychology. Morals do.

 

To suggest that your ethics class would be a 180 deg turn from mine is a clear indication you don't know what you're talking about.  Ethics in engineering is about determining the range of specifications & what is acceptable for production within that range.  It discusses everything from stress limits to dollar costs for failure. It tries to impress upon the students that cutting corners to save or pocket $ has limits & you need to pay attention to them. It has nothing to do with morals, religion, or any thing else.  When you think of ethics in engineering you should think more along the lines of quality assurance.

What I am saying is parents should not just turn over all their childrens upbringing to schools. Parents should not think they do not have to teach their own children because "the schools will do that" or "they will learn that in Church"

[JUGGERNAUT]

No Jugg - ethics as in ripping off someone else's design, designing something and approving it even though you know that someone could be hurt or killed because of cheap parts your manager/company owner mandated to use (I've seen engineers quit because of this).  That type of ethics is what I was talking about.

Pardon me? Other than the need to respect copyrights & patents what exactly did you say that was any different? What do you think limits & failures mean in specifications?

 

With respect to copyrights & patents it was covered in all classes but more along the lines of the engineering details. In other words if a patent includes a specification range & you wish to mimic the patent without infringing upon it what are the acceptable parameters in doing so.

 

Getting back to the point of the thread ethics classes in college deal mostly with specific disciplines so they should not be confused with morality classes which are more along the lines of social & psychological behavior science.

[Queen Prawn]

Nevermind. I don't believe I called them morality class, I said ethics was mixed in with my engineering courses. They were actually putting an 'ethics' course together when I graduated, not sure if it was ever implemented or not.

 

Not sure where the hostility is coming from

[JUGGERNAUT]

What I am saying is parents should not just turn over all their childrens upbringing to schools. Parents should not think they do not have to teach their own children because "the schools will do that" or "they will learn that in Church"

I don't disagree with you, but that's simply a dream wish. There are very disciplined parents in America who do home school their children on top of regular school. This is reflective in the increasing numbers of students taking advance placement exams to earn college credits in high school. Okafor is a prime example of this.

 

But by & large the bulk of parents see school as baby sitters. They look to school as the guardian of their child with the responsibility to educate their child. They spend their time with their children being friends & doing friend things together. They don't challenge their child but they greatly involve their child in activities so that their child has more opportunities than they ever had.

 

On top of that, the bulk of parents are simply not qualified to teach ethics or morality to their children. If every parent is teaching their own version how will that reflect in society?

 

It is better to teach a national standard & then have the parent expand upon that if they can.

[Queen Prawn]

Let's see if I can clarify now that I have a second or three. When I say ripping off a design, I am not talking necessarily about something that is already copyrighted, I am talking about stealing a design from a co-worker or using information about a company that you gain from an employee that's been fired. Selling secrets (even if there has been no signing of the company having propriatary (sp?) rights) is considered unethical. I am in no way here talking about specs and dimensions when I am speaking (in generalizations) about the ethics taught where I went to school.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Nevermind.  I don't believe I called them morality class, I said ethics was mixed in with my engineering courses.  They were actually putting an 'ethics' course together when I graduated, not sure if it was ever implemented or not.

 

Not sure where the hostility is coming from 

This goes out to Steff as well. I don't reply to every post. I read the replies of several people & then try to include a response to all of them in one post. That one post usually quotes that last post I've read. So sometimes it looks like I'm replying to you about something that you hadn't mention.

 

I think instead I will just reply in general & use abbrev quotes. I don't get a lot of time to do this so I can't reply to each individual post.

[Soxy]

Not sure where the hostility is coming from 

I definitely agree on that point. You win a lot more people over without being condescending, rude, and mean-spiritied...

 

I can't even read some replies on here because they are just so mean-spirited and completely lacking respect for diverse opinions. That's not a debate--which implies dialogue--some of this is just preaching or overall meanness...

[southsider2k5]

Nevermind.  I don't believe I called them morality class, I said ethics was mixed in with my engineering courses.  They were actually putting an 'ethics' course together when I graduated, not sure if it was ever implemented or not.

 

Not sure where the hostility is coming from 

Being moral, ethical, and religious at the sametime is very stressful. But I guess you heathens wouldn't understand that now would you?

[Texsox]

I don't disagree with you, but that's simply a dream wish. There are very disciplined parents in America who do home school their children on top of regular school.  This is reflective in the increasing numbers of students taking advance placement exams to earn college credits in high school.  Okafor is a prime example of this.

 

But by & large the bulk of parents see school as baby sitters.  They look to school as the guardian of their child with the responsibility to educate their child.  They spend their time with their children being friends & doing friend things together. They don't challenge their child but they greatly involve their child in activities so that their child has more opportunities than they ever had.

 

On top of that, the bulk of parents are simply not qualified to teach ethics or morality to their children.  If every parent is teaching their own version how will that reflect in society? 

 

It is better to teach a national standard & then have the parent expand upon that if they can.

No matter which vehicle a parent chooses for education, public, private, or home schooling, in the final judgement, they are responsible for that child and that child's education, physical, and moral development.

 

You can think that you are not qualified to teach your child morality and want someone else to do it for you. That is your choice.

 

And what class will you be taking away to make time for this class or would you extend the school day?

[JUGGERNAUT]

Let's see if I can clarify now that I have a second or three.  When I say ripping off a design, I am not talking necessarily about something that is already copyrighted, I am talking about stealing a design from a co-worker or using information about a company that you gain from an employee that's been fired.  Selling secrets (even if there has been no signing of the company having propriatary (sp?) rights) is considered unethical.  I am in no way here talking about specs and dimensions when I am speaking (in generalizations) about the ethics taught where I went to school.

I'll be nice. Yes all of that was included in my classes as well. But it was given minor attention. The focus was to instill in the engineer the science aspect of their actions so they aware of the consequences.

 

I personally think the more an engineering driven ethics class steers towards morality & away from the science the less value it has but that's my opinion. There are morality classes & ethics classes & in an engineering degree you better know the ethics involved in your design. You better know how to manage safety vs cost.

[JUGGERNAUT]

No matter which vehicle a parent chooses for education, public, private, or home schooling, in the final judgement, they are responsible for that child and that child's education, physical, and moral development.

 

You can think that you are not qualified to teach your child morality and want someone else to do it for you. That is your choice.

 

And what class will you be taking away to make time for this class or would you extend the school day?

Social science. What part of bulk of parents did you equate to myself?

I actively home school & they are on course towards AP exams.

[Wong & Owens]

To suggest that your ethics class would be a 180 deg turn from mine is a clear indication you don't know what you're talking about.  Ethics in engineering is about determining the range of specifications & what is acceptable for production within that range.  It discusses everything from stress limits to dollar costs for failure. It tries to impress upon the students that cutting corners to save or pocket $ has limits & you need to pay attention to them. It has nothing to do with morals, religion, or any thing else.  When you think of ethics in engineering you should think more along the lines of quality assurance.

To suggest that your ethics class would be a 180 deg turn from mine is a clear indication you don't know what you're talking about.

 

**SINCE I THINK THIS WAS IN RESPONSE TO MY POST I'LL ANSWER IT. I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. MAYBE SINCE I HAVE YET TO SEE AS MANY AS ONE POST IN SUPPORT OF ANY OF YOUR RIDICULOUS POSITIONS, MAYBE YOU'RE THE ONE WHO DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT.

 

Ethics in engineering is about determining the range of specifications & what is acceptable for production within that range. It discusses everything from stress limits to dollar costs for failure.

 

**WHICH IS NOT THE TYPE OF "ETHICS" THAT WAS BEING DISCUSSED, AND YOU KNOW IT. THE "ETHICS" IN DISCUSSION WERE OF THE TYPE THAT FANOF14 WAS TALKING ABOUT, AND EVERYBODY WHO'S POSTED ON THE TOPIC HAS FIGURED THAT OUT BUT YOU. OR ARE YOU IMPLYING THAT YOU WANTED TO START A DISCUSSION ABOUT INSTALLING A COURSE ABOUT "determining the range of specifications & what is acceptable for production within that range. " AT THE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL LEVEL? AND IF SO, THEN WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH MORALITY? AND WHY ARE YOU CONSTANTLY USING BOTH WORDS IN THE SAME SENTENCE?

 

When you think of ethics in engineering you should think more along the lines of quality assurance.

 

**NOBODY THINKS OF ETHICS IN THAT VEIN, AND EVEN IF THAT DEFINITION IS CORRECT, IT STILL DOESN'T ANSWER WHY YOU MENTION THAT AND MORALITY TOGETHER OFTEN ENOUGH AS IF THEY WERE THE SAME THING?

[JUGGERNAUT]

I definitely agree on that point. You win a lot more people over without being condescending, rude, and mean-spiritied...

 

I can't even read some replies on here because they are just so mean-spirited and completely lacking respect for diverse opinions. That's not a debate--which implies dialogue--some of this is just preaching or overall meanness...

Though I can't speak for all, I certainly bear no hostility towards any one here.

I welcome debates & good arguments so as to better hone my own.

I feel a sense of accomplishment when faced with hostility from others that I try to work a compromise. I feel that is clearly prevalent on this subject as it has evolved over the past few days.

 

I apologize for not responding to each poster individually & the confusion that has caused at times. I tried to cut down the number of posts due to time & bandwidth constraints.

 

As a summary through active debate we have moved from majority based school prayer to a national non-religious ethics & morality based initiative in school.

I think that's accomplishment. I wish congress could do as much.

 

Would I have reached this direction without you? Probably not. We all grow very comfortable & agreeable to that which is prevalent in our lives. It takes active debate of differing opinions to take us in new directions.

[Texsox]

Social science. What part of bulk of parents did you equate to myself?

I actively home school & they are on course towards AP exams.

You talked about parents being unqualified to teach morality. I think it is each parents decision on how they teach their children. If you do not feel qualified to teach morality, let someone else. Even if it is being taught in the schools, it is still the parent's responsibility to be certain the child understands, etc.

 

If not the parents, who should be responsible? The teachers? Johnny just got busted for drugs, send the teacher to jail? Sue the school for failure to instill the US moral code?

 

Society already determines what behavior is acceptable and the relative severity of the infraction. These are called laws and punishments. Roll through a stop sign and you may get a warning, steal a bicycle and maybe get arrested and pay a fine, kill someone and spend the rest of your life behind bars. Violate copyright laws by illegally burning a CD and pay a fine.

 

That is the US moral code. Are we now going to establish what to do when you see a homeless person begging for money? How much of your income you should give to charity? What are you covering that isn't already covered by laws?

[JUGGERNAUT]

To suggest that your ethics class would be a 180 deg turn from mine is a clear indication you don't know what you're talking about.

 

**SINCE I THINK THIS WAS IN RESPONSE TO MY POST I'LL ANSWER IT.  I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.  MAYBE SINCE I HAVE YET TO SEE AS MANY AS ONE POST IN SUPPORT OF ANY OF YOUR RIDICULOUS POSITIONS, MAYBE YOU'RE THE ONE WHO DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT.

 

Ethics in engineering is about determining the range of specifications & what is acceptable for production within that range.  It discusses everything from stress limits to dollar costs for failure.

 

**WHICH IS NOT THE TYPE OF "ETHICS" THAT WAS BEING DISCUSSED, AND YOU KNOW IT.  THE "ETHICS" IN DISCUSSION WERE OF THE TYPE THAT FANOF14 WAS TALKING ABOUT, AND EVERYBODY WHO'S POSTED ON THE TOPIC HAS FIGURED THAT OUT BUT YOU.  OR ARE YOU IMPLYING THAT YOU WANTED TO START A DISCUSSION ABOUT INSTALLING A COURSE ABOUT "determining the range of specifications & what is acceptable for production within that range. " AT THE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL LEVEL?  AND IF SO, THEN WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH MORALITY?  AND WHY ARE YOU CONSTANTLY USING BOTH WORDS IN THE SAME SENTENCE?

 

When you think of ethics in engineering you should think more along the lines of quality assurance.

 

**NOBODY THINKS OF ETHICS IN THAT VEIN, AND EVEN IF THAT DEFINITION IS CORRECT, IT STILL DOESN'T ANSWER WHY YOU MENTION THAT AND MORALITY TOGETHER OFTEN ENOUGH AS IF THEY WERE THE SAME THING?

Now this is an example of a hostile post. To which I will respond kindly.

Once again, I made this distinction because it was obvious by some of the posters they like you were lumping them together. So I have clearly drawn a distinction between the too.

 

For those who just joined & yourself generally speaking ethics applies to specific areas. There are medical ethics, computer science ethics, & material science ethics, electronics ethics, etc. They primarily deal with cause & effect relationships within that discipline. Those are better left for college years.

 

General concepts of business ethics can be taught in High School along the line of ecnomics classes.

 

Generally speaking ethics requires greater knowledge of areas to which it is being applied & are better left for high school & college.

 

Morality on the other hand deals with behavioral & psychological science & the core concepts can be started in 5th/6th grade. Basically the years a child begins to cover wars in social science & history. Familarity of it can be introduced as early as 1st grade by simply quoting a philosopher in home room & then entertaining a few minutes of discussion about the quote. Interactive learning time & again is considered the best means to educate.

 

Why one would be hostile to that is beyond me. Aristotle alone can be used to emphasize the importance of homework to young kids. I think it would be pretty cool if kids in general grew up respecting these guys.

[JUGGERNAUT]

That is the US moral code. Are we now going to establish what to do when you see a homeless person begging for money? How much of your income you should give to charity? What are you covering that isn't already covered by laws?

No, that is US civil code. It is never referred to as US moral code.

 

I answered the basis of an evolution of morality to ethics classes in the previous post.

 

Your suggestion is that the US civil code is enough & nothing more is needed.

So why don't you discuss your foundation for that argument? I don't need links, just list the basis points to support that argument.

[Wong & Owens]

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/M...ndDivorce.shtml

 

More fuel for the fire.

 

And, as for my alleged hostile post, JUGGERNAUT, any hositlity in this thread has been started by you, and if I defended in kind, well, I should know better. But get off your high horse--this may your first post in which you did respond kindly.

[Mathew]

Social Science, is that history and geography ect. Cause I would value those classes above somebody telling me how a group of largely immoral politicians thinks I should act.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Social Science, is that history and geography ect.  Cause I would value those classes above somebody telling me how a group of largely immoral politicians thinks I should act.

History should always have been taught in the conjunction with morality & philosophy.

Geography is an apparent part of World history.

[Mathew]

History should always have been taught in the conjunction with morality & philosophy.

Geography is an apparent part of World history.

I thought that was your answer to what gets replaced by the new class, maybe I had it wrong so I'll repeat it for whoever asked. What class gets punted for this class?

[zach61]

I stopped reading this thread because the more I read, the more it sounds like communism and even how the nazis thought. Do we really want the government to decide on what our morals should be? All I know is that my morals don't tell me to invade one country that has resources I want to remove an evil dictator and turn my back on another because there is no interest for me there. But if those are the morals you want, let our politicians dictate them to you. And as far as ethics go, should Haliburton be the role model?

[JUGGERNAUT]

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/M...ndDivorce.shtml

 

More fuel for the fire.

 

And, as for my alleged hostile post, JUGGERNAUT, any hositlity in this thread has been started by you, and if I defended in kind, well, I should know better.  But get off your high horse--this may your first post in which you did respond kindly.

I was never on a high horse. I recognize this as a sports message board & that sparing with words is par for the course. I never called any one out on being unkind or mean-spirited. But I do believe when others weigh in on that subject in detail it's time to tone it down. So that is what I am doing.

 

With respect to your link:

G7 & murder rate: This stat is meaningless without a reference in per capita income.

Reasons:

1) The US has the most comprehensive records for violent crime amongst the G7 nations because the US spends more $'s per district than any of the G7 nations.

If you break down the crime region of G7's per district their most capital driven districts have greater crime rates than in the US. Hong Kong is a prime example.

 

2) The US has one of the best records on treatment of violent criminals. Even with the death penalty the %'s of deaths, brutailities, beatings of violent criminals in the US is much lower than any of the G7 nations.

 

There are more but basically the consensus is that has the G7 evolve more towards

capitalistic states & improve their abilities to record violent crimes they will likewise resemble the US rates.

 

Atheists w lower divorce rates:

Again this sample does not distinguish between practicing & non-practicing religious groups & there is a big difference between those groups. To say that a group that represents about 10% of the US population has a lower divorce rate than a group representing about 60% of the US population is not of much value. I do not know of any polls that compare atheists to the practicing groups but comparings a 10% group to about a 30% group would carry much greater weight.

 

Conclusion:

I do not recall where it was ever said that atheists are immoral. Like all groups this one has it's good & bad seeds as well. From my own personal experience I have found most atheists to be centrally grounded in moral philosophies & that is what ultimately determines the morality of a person.

 

I don't see how this added fuel to the fire in this thread since this thread is mostly concerned with moral philosophies & the need to teach them in schools. The only aspect that religion has in that is that Jesus should be included in that discussion as much as Aristotle. In otherwords it should be all-encompassing. A melting pot of philosophical views that relate to a core.