Morality or Ethics class in Elem & HS

[Wong & Owens]

I was never on a high horse.  I recognize this as a sports message board & that sparing with words is par for the course.  I never called any one out on being unkind or mean-spirited.  But I do believe when others weigh in on that subject in detail it's time to tone it down.  So that is what I am doing.

 

With respect to your link:

G7 & murder rate:  This stat is meaningless without a reference in per capita income.

Reasons:

1) The US has the most comprehensive records for violent crime amongst the G7 nations because the US spends more $'s per district than any of the G7 nations.

If you break down the crime region of G7's per district their most capital driven districts have greater crime rates than in the US.  Hong Kong is a prime example.

 

2) The US has one of the best records on treatment of violent criminals.  Even with the death penalty the %'s of deaths, brutailities, beatings of violent criminals in the US is much lower than any of the G7 nations. 

 

There are more but basically the consensus is that has the G7 evolve more towards

capitalistic states & improve their abilities to record violent crimes they will likewise resemble the US rates. 

 

Atheists w lower divorce rates:

Again this sample does not distinguish between practicing & non-practicing religious groups & there is a big difference between those groups.  To say that a group that represents about 10% of the US population has a lower divorce rate than a group representing about 60% of the US population is not of much value.  I do not know of any polls that compare atheists to the practicing groups but comparings a 10% group to about a 30% group would carry much greater weight.

 

Conclusion:

I do not recall where it was ever said that atheists are immoral.  Like all groups this one has it's good & bad seeds as well.  From my own personal experience I have found most atheists to be centrally grounded in moral philosophies & that is what ultimately determines the morality of a person.

 

I don't see how this added fuel to the fire in this thread since this thread is mostly concerned with moral philosophies & the need to teach them in schools.  The only aspect that religion has in that is that Jesus should be included in that discussion as much as Aristotle.  In otherwords it should be all-encompassing.  A melting pot of philosophical views that relate to a core.

I was never on a high horse. I recognize this as a sports message board & that sparing with words is par for the course. I never called any one out on being unkind or mean-spirited. But I do believe when others weigh in on that subject in detail it's time to tone it down. So that is what I am doing.

 

**GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME. LET'S DANCE:

 

group representing about 60% of the US population is not of much value.

 

**WHICH GROUP IS THIS? BECAUSE IF YOU'RE TELLING ME THAT 60% OF THE U.S. POPULATION ACTIVELY PARTICIPATES IN A RELIGION OF SOME SORT--I DON'T BUY IT. THERE'S A REASON WHY CATHOLIC CHURCHES/SCHOOLS GET CLOSED EVERY YEAR(AT LEAST IN CHICAGO, BUT I'M SURE IT'S NOT THE ONLY PLACE)--PEOPLE AREN'T PARTICIPATING AS MUCH ANYMORE. I'D BE INTERESTED IN SEEING DATA THAT SHOWS 60% OF AMERICANS ATTEND SERVICES REGULARLY.

 

I do not recall where it was ever said that atheists are immoral.

 

**IN YOUR POST IN WHICH YOU STATED THAT ADDING PRAYER TO SCHOOL WOULD LOWER RATES OF LYING, CHEATING, MOLESTATION, ET AL. IF ATHEISTS AREN'T IMMORAL, THEN WHY ANY NEED TO ADD PRAYER TO PUBLIC SCHOOLS?

 

I don't see how this added fuel to the fire in this thread since this thread is mostly concerned with moral philosophies & the need to teach them in schools.

 

**I SEEM TO HAVE POSTED THIS IN THE WRONG THREAD. IT PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE GONE UNDER THE CUTURE WAR THREAD. MY BAD.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I thought that was your answer to what gets replaced by the new class, maybe I had it wrong so I'll repeat it for whoever asked.  What class gets punted for this class?

To which I will give you the same answer: none.

You are not punting history or social science but rather expanding it to include philosophy.

 

Morality is after all an application of philosophy. Likewise behavioral science & psychology come into play with philosophy.

 

The Nazi & Communist references are in poor taste.

Both of these systems of govt are predicated on the philosophies of the intrepretation of a few man. A national standard based on the world's most LEADing philosophies of life is an entirely different thing.

 

I think that's the part you're not understand. World history should be taught with the inclusion of social science of the regions being studied. It is more important to learn about the culture & traditions that define the people in a region than the major events that occured in that region. That's not to say that the major events are not important because they do help shape the culture & traditions, but they are less important. What could be better preparation for a world economy?

[Texsox]

No, that is US civil code. It is never referred to as US moral code.

 

I answered the basis of an evolution of morality to ethics classes in the previous post.

 

Your suggestion is that the US civil code is enough & nothing more is needed.

So why don't you discuss your foundation for that argument? I don't need links, just list the basis points to support that argument.

What are you going to teach and stay within the rights of US citizens?

How about the morality of food?

Kosher? Vegetarian? Vegan?

Morality is not a one size fits all. Are cows and rats sacred? Is premarital sex moral? Death Penalty? Abortion? Assasinations? Non Violence vs. Violence?

 

There is one standard of unnacceptable behavior in the US. Morality manifests itself as behavior. Until someone acts, society cannot take action. So what is the common set of behaviors that we, as Americans, believe in? Our civil code.

 

I still am interested in why you feel we should train hundreds of thousands of people to teach morality (teachers).

[JUGGERNAUT]

I do not recall where it was ever said that atheists are immoral.

 

**IN YOUR POST IN WHICH YOU STATED THAT ADDING PRAYER TO SCHOOL WOULD LOWER RATES OF LYING, CHEATING, MOLESTATION, ET AL.  IF ATHEISTS AREN'T IMMORAL, THEN WHY ANY NEED TO ADD PRAYER TO PUBLIC SCHOOLS?

 

I don't see how this added fuel to the fire in this thread since this thread is mostly concerned with moral philosophies & the need to teach them in schools.

 

**I SEEM TO HAVE POSTED THIS IN THE WRONG THREAD.  IT PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE GONE UNDER THE CUTURE WAR THREAD.  MY BAD.

Point 1:

The 60% figure represents those that identify themselves as Christian. It does not mean that they go to Church, were Baptized, went to Catholic schools, or any other religious association. I think it's actually higher. I think the actual number is like 170 million. I don't remember. But to illustrate the loose association the predominant answer of young people to the poll is "well my Mom is so I guess that makes me one".

 

In other words it more closely resembles America as a whole than anything else.

The number that acticely participate is more like 30% wrt to Christians. About 25-30 million Catholics & then all the other denominations.

 

Point 2:

You shouldn't equate the absence of prayer in schools with atheism in general.

The absence of prayer in schools is a much bigger problem dealing with the absence of the teaching morality & ethics in schools. Prayer in schools is simply the cheapest & quickest means to bring that back. But as this debate evolved so to as the country to where we are more sophisticated now to where we can look beyond the most cheapest & quickest means to solve a problem. That's what this thread is specifically dealing with.

[JUGGERNAUT]

What are you going to teach and stay within the rights of US citizens?

How about the morality of food?

Kosher? Vegetarian? Vegan?

Morality is not a one size fits all. Are cows and rats sacred? Is premarital sex moral? Death Penalty? Abortion? Assasinations? Non Violence vs. Violence?

 

There is one standard of unnacceptable behavior in the US. Morality manifests itself as behavior. Until someone acts, society cannot take action. So what is the common set of behaviors that we, as Americans, believe in? Our civil code.

 

I still am interested in why you feel we should train hundreds of thousands of people to teach morality (teachers).

World history should be taught with the inclusion of social science of the regions being studied. It is more important to learn about the culture & traditions that define the people in a region than the major events that occured in that region. That's not to say that the major events are not important because they do help shape the culture & traditions, but they are less important. What could be better preparation for a world economy?

 

I'll add this. There is core of central values in all of the leading philosophies:

being kind, honesty, etc. These would be the values that would be studied in the context of world history through the PERSPECTIVE of the people of the region.

 

Wrt to caps I think it's perfectly acceptable to cap certain words that you want to draw emphasis on. Bold takes more key strokes so why bother?

[JUGGERNAUT]

I'm calling it quits for today. I have to budget the time I can spend on this.

[Texsox]

World history should be taught with the inclusion of social science of the regions being studied. It is more important to learn about the culture & traditions that define the people in a region than the major events that occured in that region. That's not to say that the major events are not important because they do help shape the culture & traditions, but they are less important. What could be better preparation for a world economy?

 

I'll add this.  There is core of central values in all of the leading philosophies:

being kind, honesty, etc.  These would be the values that would be studied in the context of world history through the PERSPECTIVE of the people of the region.

 

Wrt to caps I think it's perfectly acceptable to cap certain words that you want to draw emphasis on.  Bold takes more key strokes so why bother?

I think I am tracking with you. Include morality and ethics as it occures in other academic areas, not creating a separate class?

 

Are we talking beginning in elementary school?

[Wong & Owens]

Point 1:

The 60% figure represents those that identify themselves as Christian.  It does not mean that they go to Church, were Baptized, went to Catholic schools, or any other religious association.  I think it's actually higher.  I think the actual number is like 170 million. I don't remember.  But to illustrate the loose association the predominant answer of young people to the poll is "well my Mom is so I guess that makes me one".

 

In other words it more closely resembles America as a whole than anything else.

The number that acticely participate is more like 30% wrt to Christians.  About 25-30 million Catholics & then all the other denominations. 

 

Point 2:

The 60% figure represents those that identify themselves as Christian.  It does not mean that they go to Church, were Baptized, went to Catholic schools, or any other religious association.  I think it's actually higher.  I think the actual number is like 170 million. I don't remember.  But to illustrate the loose association the predominant answer of young people to the poll is "well my Mom is so I guess that makes me one".

 

In other words it more closely resembles America as a whole than anything else.

The number that acticely participate is more like 30% wrt to Christians.  About 25-30 million Catholics & then all the other denominations. 

Prayer in schools is simply the cheapest & quickest means to bring that back.  But as this debate evolved so to as the country to where we are more sophisticated now to where we can look beyond the most cheapest & quickest means to solve a problem.  That's what this thread is specifically dealing with.

The 60% figure represents those that identify themselves as Christian. It does not mean that they go to Church, were Baptized, went to Catholic schools, or any other religious association. I think it's actually higher. I think the actual number is like 170 million. I don't remember. But to illustrate the loose association the predominant answer of young people to the poll is "well my Mom is so I guess that makes me one".

 

In other words it more closely resembles America as a whole than anything else.

The number that acticely participate is more like 30% wrt to Christians. About 25-30 million Catholics & then all the other denominations.

 

**THAT'S WHAT I KIND OF THOUGHT. AND, IN THAT CASE I DON'T THINK IT'S AT ALL FAIR TO ALLOW THE PEOPLE WHO ANSWERED YES TO THE POLL SIMPLY BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS WERE CHRISTIAN, TO BE COUNTED AS CHRISTIAN. I CAN'T CALL MYSELF A MEMBER OF THE SINN FEIN, JUST BECAUSE MY PARENTS ARE IRISH. THEREFORE, THE TRUE NUMBER BEING CLOSER TO 30%, THUS NOT BEING A TRUE REPRESENTATION OF A MAJORITY IN AMERICA.

 

You shouldn't equate the absence of prayer in schools with atheism in general.

The absence of prayer in schools is a much bigger problem dealing with the absence of the teaching morality & ethics in schools

 

**MAYBE I'M MISINTERPRETING HERE, BUT IT SURE SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE CONTRACDICTING YOURSELF. YOU CONTINUE TO LINK PRAYER WITH MORALITY, YET AGREE THAT ATHEISTS(THOSE WHO DO NOT PRAY) ARE NOT IMMORAL. ISN'T EXPLAINING MORALITY USING SAY, THE GOLDEN RULE(WHICH CAN APPEAL TO ALL RELIGIONS / NON-RELIGIONS) BOTH EASIER TO UNDERSTAND, AS WELL AS TO TEACH TO YOUNG PEOPLE? WHY ANY NEED TO GO FURTHER?

[Mathew]

I personally think Americans have a major shortage in their understanding of the world's geography history and cultures. The world tends to view them as far less educated about the world outside their borders then most as I have experianced when speaking to different non-Americans. I'd suggest more lessons on the rest of the world personally, but who knows. I do know for sure however that it befell my parents and grandparents to teach me how to be a free thinking human being. If my teacher told me not to have sex before I was 18, I'd have told him/her to very immorally f*** off. Yet I am likely a fairly decent person, elected to Municipal office at 19 would indicate that to some extent. Though not religious I would certainly have entertained a class on contemporary culture studies, but that would differ greatly from a lesson on how one should or shouldn't live.

[JUGGERNAUT]

The 60% figure represents those that identify themselves as Christian.  It does not mean that they go to Church, were Baptized, went to Catholic schools, or any other religious association.  I think it's actually higher.  I think the actual number is like 170 million. I don't remember.  But to illustrate the loose association the predominant answer of young people to the poll is "well my Mom is so I guess that makes me one".

 

In other words it more closely resembles America as a whole than anything else.

The number that acticely participate is more like 30% wrt to Christians.  About 25-30 million Catholics & then all the other denominations. 

 

**THAT'S WHAT I KIND OF THOUGHT.  AND, IN THAT CASE I DON'T THINK IT'S AT ALL FAIR TO ALLOW THE PEOPLE WHO ANSWERED YES TO THE POLL SIMPLY BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS WERE CHRISTIAN, TO BE COUNTED AS CHRISTIAN.  I CAN'T CALL MYSELF A MEMBER OF THE SINN FEIN, JUST BECAUSE MY PARENTS ARE IRISH. THEREFORE, THE TRUE NUMBER BEING CLOSER TO 30%, THUS NOT BEING A TRUE REPRESENTATION OF A MAJORITY IN AMERICA. 

 

You shouldn't equate the absence of prayer in schools with atheism in general.

The absence of prayer in schools is a much bigger problem dealing with the absence of the teaching morality & ethics in schools

 

**MAYBE I'M MISINTERPRETING HERE, BUT IT SURE SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE CONTRACDICTING YOURSELF.  YOU CONTINUE TO LINK PRAYER WITH MORALITY, YET AGREE THAT ATHEISTS(THOSE WHO DO NOT PRAY) ARE NOT IMMORAL.  ISN'T EXPLAINING MORALITY USING SAY, THE GOLDEN RULE(WHICH CAN APPEAL TO ALL RELIGIONS / NON-RELIGIONS) BOTH EASIER TO UNDERSTAND, AS WELL AS TO TEACH TO YOUNG PEOPLE?  WHY ANY NEED TO GO FURTHER?

I'll respond to this in the culture thread because it is a minor point in this thread.

http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=18395

[BrandoFan]

If every parent is teaching their own version how will that reflect in society?

 

I love Monty Python!