Geneva convention rules

[southsider2k5]

Geneva Convention Rules of War

 

This is a long, but interesting read on the rules of war according to the Geneva Convention. I would be interested to hear from someone like Nuke or Beverly to hear how the US interprets these so liberally. As I read them it sounds like all we are able to do is ask prisioners questions and thats it. Yet we use sleep deprevation and many other techniques that seem pretty clearly not allowed according to this.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Geneva Convention Rules of War

 

This is a long, but interesting read on the rules of war according to the Geneva Convention.  I would be interested to hear from someone like Nuke or Beverly to hear how the US interprets these so liberally.  As I read them it sounds like all we are able to do is ask prisioners questions and thats it.  Yet we use sleep deprevation and many other techniques that seem pretty clearly not allowed according to this.

If we adhered to the Geneva Convention there would be no war in Iraq. We were very quick to point out that the Iraqi military parading our captured soldiers on Iraqui television last year violated the Convention though.

 

What? Do you want us to toe the same line we ask the rest of the world to toe? It would be nice.

[Texsox]

We cannot simultaniously demand high standards then use the lowest abuse our guys receive as justification for our own transgressions.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

We cannot simultaniously demand high standards then use the lowest abuse our guys receive as justification for our own transgressions.

Who has been trying to justify what happened there? Not me nor any of the other "hawks" here, certainly nobody in the administration, so who then?

[Texsox]

Who has been trying to justify what happened there?  Not me nor any of the other "hawks" here,  certainly nobody in the administration,  so who then?

I have heard comments like, "look what they did to us", "look at dragging corpses through the streets", "crashing airplanes into the World Trade Center" etc. I was not pointing to anyone specifically here.

 

I am also agreeing with and amplifying what FlaSoxxJim said

 

What? Do you want us to toe the same line we ask the rest of the world to toe? It would be nice.

 

Rush earlier stated it looked like a fraternity initiation. That was early last week, probably before more of the photos were released. I haven't listened to hear what his current position is.

 

Do you disagree with the statement that we have to model the behavior we expect when our soldiers are captured? I do not see how we can demand Geneva Convention standards for our servicemen and women and then break those same rules when we have prisoners.

[EvilMonkey]

I do not see how we can demand Geneva Convention standards for our servicemen and women and then break those same rules when we have prisoners.

We DEMAND such treatment, but do we receive it? While I in no way condone the actions of those that mistreated the prisoners over there, at least as far as the world community goes, if you didn't say anything against the Iraqi's setting our people on fire and crap, you have no right to b**** about this.

[israel4ever]

We DEMAND such treatment, but do we receive it? While I in no way condone the actions of those that mistreated the prisoners over there, at least as far as the world community goes, if you didn't say anything against the Iraqi's setting our people on fire and crap, you have no right to b**** about this.

RIGHT ON!!!

[FlaSoxxJim]

We DEMAND such treatment, but do we receive it? While I in no way condone the actions of those that mistreated the prisoners over there, at least as far as the world community goes, if you didn't say anything against the Iraqi's setting our people on fire and crap, you have no right to b**** about this.

We were all disgusted by what we saw happening to American soldiers and civilians, as we are all disgusted by what we have seen done to the Iraqi prisoners. There is a very real difference, however, in who the abusers were in both cases and whether Geneva applies to them. Iraqi civilian insurgents are NOT a government sanctioned military force, and the Geneva Accord is of no consequence to them. Of course that has been a very real issue in the war oagainst terrorism post 9-11, terrorist organizations are not part of a government and so we often have no clear foe to target in retaliation and the other side doesn't have to play by the "rules" of war and treatment of prisoners set forth by Geneva.

[CrimsonWeltall]

People who bring up the atrocities committed to Americans are generally trying to expose the hypocrisy of the Arab and Muslim world when they go nuts toward Western crimes and turn a blind eye to their own.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Rush earlier stated it looked like a fraternity initiation. That was early last week, probably before more of the photos were released. I haven't listened to hear what his current position is.

It was not just Rush. Some college students responded the same. Indicating that what they saw looked more like hazing than torture. Of course we have the recent scandal in Chicago to attest to that. They did the talk show circuits & such & yet there were still several girls who refused to accept that throwing s*** & beating underclassmen was abnormal.

 

It does not surprise me when similar if not worse attrocities are occuring on our high school & college campuses that such behavior would appear normal to GI's. Any code of conduct is only as good as the belief behind it. It matters not if it's in writing if it's not accepted as normal.

 

When I first heard the remark & remembered my pledge years & then recalled Old School it didn't seem so off base. With one very clear exception: other than peer pressure, we choose to accept the circumstances of our own free will. The problem of course is that you agree to accept any circumstance & find out the details later.

 

This is why I point to Rumsfeld as not the cause of the abuse but for not doing all he could to prevent it. I believe if he had made a public statement on it in a press conference before the prison was used in that capacity this kind of abuse would have been less likely to occur. Even if that's not the case then at least the attrocities would have been more viewed as exceptions instead of the norm.

 

In general with respect to the Geneva convention rules if they are more ideals than rules then where does the US rank in conforming to them with respect to other warring nations? If the US is near the top or number 1 in that list then there isn't much of an argument.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

The US has been categorically against human rights (hence our non compliance with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) except when it suits us.

 

The Milgrim test shows that people can be pressured into doing crazy s***. (The test where almost all the subjects "lethally shocked" a test subject when he demanded that they do so during a shock training session)

 

As to the contractors, if one has followed the Libertarian run site www.antiwar.com they would have seen the stories on the news wire that showed many of the "contractors" in Iraq are actually mercenaries brought in to protect oil supplies.

 

http://allafrica.com/stories/200404190944.html

 

[snip] A security contractor killed in Iraq last week was once one of South Africa's most secret covert agents, his identity guarded so closely that even the Truth and Reconciliation Commission did not discover the extent of his involvement in apartheid's silent wars.

 

Gray Branfield, 55, admitted to being part of a death squad which gunned down Joe Gqabi, the ANC's chief representative and Umkhonto weSizwe operational head in Zimbabwe on July 31 1981. Gqabi was shot 19 times when three assassins ambushed him as he reversed down the driveway of his Harare home.

 

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/...8464637030.html

 

A Pentagon contractor has begun recruiting former commandos, other soldiers and seamen, paying them up to $US4000 ($A5300) a month to guard oil wells against attack by insurgents.

 

Last month Blackwater USA flew a first group of about 60 former commandos, many of whom had trained under the military government of Augusto Pinochet, from Santiago to a 970-hectare training camp in North Carolina.

 

From there they would be taken to Iraq, where they were expected to stay between six months and a year, the president of Blackwater USA, Gary Jackson, said. "We scour the ends of the earth to find professionals - the Chilean commandos are very, very professional and they fit within the Blackwater system."

 

Granted there are some independent contractors who are actually contractors but many of them are independent mercenaries who are armed and fighting the Iraqis. Kinda puts a different spin on stories like the Iraq maiming if the guys were mercenaries looking to take some of the Iraqis out and if they happened to be armed. I'm not saying that's the case...I'm just saying, it makes things a helluva lot more interesting to think about.

[Texsox]

There was also stories circulating a year ago that the CIA and other agencies were sub contracting interrogations to countries whose laws allowed for more aggresive forms of interoggation (re: torture).

[israel4ever]

The US has been categorically against human rights (hence our non compliance with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) except when it suits us.

 

The Milgrim test shows that people can be pressured into doing crazy s***. (The test where almost all the subjects "lethally shocked" a test subject when he demanded that they do so during a shock training session)

 

As to the contractors, if one has followed the Libertarian run site www.antiwar.com they would have seen the stories on the news wire that showed many of the "contractors" in Iraq are actually mercenaries brought in to protect oil supplies.

 

http://allafrica.com/stories/200404190944.html

 

[snip] A security contractor killed in Iraq last week was once one of South Africa's most secret covert agents, his identity guarded so closely that even the Truth and Reconciliation Commission did not discover the extent of his involvement in apartheid's silent wars.

 

Gray Branfield, 55, admitted to being part of a death squad which gunned down Joe Gqabi, the ANC's chief representative and Umkhonto weSizwe operational head in Zimbabwe on July 31 1981. Gqabi was shot 19 times when three assassins ambushed him as he reversed down the driveway of his Harare home.

 

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/...8464637030.html

 

A Pentagon contractor has begun recruiting former commandos, other soldiers and seamen, paying them up to $US4000 ($A5300) a month to guard oil wells against attack by insurgents.

 

Last month Blackwater USA flew a first group of about 60 former commandos, many of whom had trained under the military government of Augusto Pinochet, from Santiago to a 970-hectare training camp in North Carolina.

 

From there they would be taken to Iraq, where they were expected to stay between six months and a year, the president of Blackwater USA, Gary Jackson, said. "We scour the ends of the earth to find professionals - the Chilean commandos are very, very professional and they fit within the Blackwater system."

 

Granted there are some independent contractors who are actually contractors but many of them are independent mercenaries who are armed and fighting the Iraqis.  Kinda puts a different spin on stories like the Iraq maiming if the guys were mercenaries looking to take some of the Iraqis out and if they happened to be armed.  I'm not saying that's the case...I'm just saying, it makes things a helluva lot more interesting to think about.

Apu criticising the US??? No way!

[JUGGERNAUT]

I don't think any one disputes that the US has violated the rules with respect to human rights. No doubt the US is a continuous repeat offender. But again I ask the question with respect to warring nations for which the rules apply where does the US rank?

 

IMO, a nation that does not allow reports of abuse to circulate should be ranked behind the US. I think if the US is #1 in disclosure of such reports then that should boost their ranking.

[IlliniBob72]

The US has been categorically against human rights (hence our non compliance with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) except when it suits us.

 

The Milgrim test shows that people can be pressured into doing crazy s***. (The test where almost all the subjects "lethally shocked" a test subject when he demanded that they do so during a shock training session)

 

As to the contractors, if one has followed the Libertarian run site www.antiwar.com they would have seen the stories on the news wire that showed many of the "contractors" in Iraq are actually mercenaries brought in to protect oil supplies.

 

http://allafrica.com/stories/200404190944.html

 

[snip] A security contractor killed in Iraq last week was once one of South Africa's most secret covert agents, his identity guarded so closely that even the Truth and Reconciliation Commission did not discover the extent of his involvement in apartheid's silent wars.

 

Gray Branfield, 55, admitted to being part of a death squad which gunned down Joe Gqabi, the ANC's chief representative and Umkhonto weSizwe operational head in Zimbabwe on July 31 1981. Gqabi was shot 19 times when three assassins ambushed him as he reversed down the driveway of his Harare home.

 

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/...8464637030.html

 

A Pentagon contractor has begun recruiting former commandos, other soldiers and seamen, paying them up to $US4000 ($A5300) a month to guard oil wells against attack by insurgents.

 

Last month Blackwater USA flew a first group of about 60 former commandos, many of whom had trained under the military government of Augusto Pinochet, from Santiago to a 970-hectare training camp in North Carolina.

 

From there they would be taken to Iraq, where they were expected to stay between six months and a year, the president of Blackwater USA, Gary Jackson, said. "We scour the ends of the earth to find professionals - the Chilean commandos are very, very professional and they fit within the Blackwater system."

 

Granted there are some independent contractors who are actually contractors but many of them are independent mercenaries who are armed and fighting the Iraqis.  Kinda puts a different spin on stories like the Iraq maiming if the guys were mercenaries looking to take some of the Iraqis out and if they happened to be armed.  I'm not saying that's the case...I'm just saying, it makes things a helluva lot more interesting to think about.

Well, hell's bells! I wish they would have told us that when they showed pictures of their charred corpses hanging from the bridge! I wouldn't have felt so badly about it then.

 

I have never heard anyone use the argument that since they do s*** to our guys, we can do s*** to theirs. Like someone else said, whenever the comparison is made, it is just in the context of the Arab world being pissed off about naked pyramids but having no qualms with decapitating captured American civilians.

 

Where is the Arab Martin Luther King? Where is the sane voice coming from the Arab street decrying such senseless murder? Is there nobody walking the streets of Amman, Cairo, or Damascus that will step up to a podium and say that the murder of "infidels" and the support and acclamation of people who murder infidels is wrong? The fact that there isn't is telling.

 

Americans see Iraqi criminals sit on each other naked and feel sickened and outraged. People in the Arab countries, as far as I can tell, see Americans mutilated, burned, and hacked to pieces and dance in the streets. And yet we refrain from going medieval on them. In the annals of history, that is rare.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Well, hell's bells! I wish they would have told us that when they showed pictures of their charred corpses hanging from the bridge! I wouldn't have felt so badly about it then.

 

I have never heard anyone use the argument that since they do s*** to our guys, we can do s*** to theirs. Like someone else said, whenever the comparison is made, it is just in the context of the Arab world being pissed off about naked pyramids but having no qualms with decapitating captured American civilians.

 

Where is the Arab Martin Luther King? Where is the sane voice coming from the Arab street decrying such senseless murder? Is there nobody walking the streets of Amman, Cairo, or Damascus that will step up to a podium and say that the murder of "infidels" and the support and acclamation of people who murder infidels is wrong? The fact that there isn't is telling.

 

Americans see Iraqi criminals sit on each other naked and feel sickened and outraged. People in the Arab countries, as far as I can tell, see Americans mutilated, burned, and hacked to pieces and dance in the streets. And yet we refrain from going medieval on them. In the annals of history, that is rare.

holy wow,

 

 

but you forgot to add ",b****" to end of the post as an apositive.

 

great post

[EvilMonkey]

Well, hell's bells! I wish they would have told us that when they showed pictures of their charred corpses hanging from the bridge! I wouldn't have felt so badly about it then.

 

I have never heard anyone use the argument that since they do s*** to our guys, we can do s*** to theirs. Like someone else said, whenever the comparison is made, it is just in the context of the Arab world being pissed off about naked pyramids but having no qualms with decapitating captured American civilians.

 

Where is the Arab Martin Luther King? Where is the sane voice coming from the Arab street decrying such senseless murder? Is there nobody walking the streets of Amman, Cairo, or Damascus that will step up to a podium and say that the murder of "infidels" and the support and acclamation of people who murder infidels is wrong? The fact that there isn't is telling.

 

Americans see Iraqi criminals sit on each other naked and feel sickened and outraged. People in the Arab countries, as far as I can tell, see Americans mutilated, burned, and hacked to pieces and dance in the streets. And yet we refrain from going medieval on them. In the annals of history, that is rare.

Yeah, that called for a 'b****!' at the end of it. Bravo!

[FlaSoxxJim]

Where is the Arab Martin Luther King? Where is the sane voice coming from the Arab street decrying such senseless murder? Is there nobody walking the streets of Amman, Cairo, or Damascus that will step up to a podium and say that the murder of "infidels" and the support and acclamation of people who murder infidels is wrong? The fact that there isn't is telling.

 

Americans see Iraqi criminals sit on each other naked and feel sickened and outraged. People in the Arab countries, as far as I can tell, see Americans mutilated, burned, and hacked to pieces and dance in the streets. And yet we refrain from going medieval on them. In the annals of history, that is rare.

Not such a great post, Bob. Shame on those who will suggest otherwise.

 

Of course there are such people in Iraq and the rest of teh Arab world that condemn the acts of violence perpetrated by rebels and insurgents. If you don't believe your statement that - to a person - every Arab is "dancing in the streets" with each American that is mutilated, beheaded, or otherwise savaged then you are using sky-high hyperbole to paint it as black and white when you know it is not.

 

I understand the outrage, I feel outraged as well. But, while violence certainly begets more of the same, it should be universally apparent by now that violence does not and can not justify more of the same.

[sox4lifeinPA]

Not such a great post, Bob.  Shame on those who will suggest otherwise.

 

Of course there are such people in Iraq and the rest of teh Arab world that condemn the acts of violence perpetrated by rebels and insurgents.  If you don't believe your statement that - to a person - every Arab is "dancing in the streets" with each American that is mutilated, beheaded, or otherwise savaged then you are using sky-high hyperbole to paint it as black and white when you know it is not.

 

I understand the outrage, I feel outraged as well.  But, while violence certainly begets more of the same, it should be universally apparent by now that violence does not and can not justify more of the same.

clearly there aren't individuals from those nations or even the muslim community speaking up, and if there are, please, show me the light. However, as you said, violence should not beget violence, and as I said before, we are better than this and should not be treating POWs this way.

[JUGGERNAUT]

QUOTE (FlaSoxxJim @ May 11 2004, 10:30 PM)

Not such a great post, Bob. Shame on those who will suggest otherwise.

 

Of course there are such people in Iraq and the rest of teh Arab world that condemn the acts of violence perpetrated by rebels and insurgents. If you don't believe your statement that - to a person - every Arab is "dancing in the streets" with each American that is mutilated, beheaded, or otherwise savaged then you are using sky-high hyperbole to paint it as black and white when you know it is not.

 

I understand the outrage, I feel outraged as well. But, while violence certainly begets more of the same, it should be universally apparent by now that violence does not and can not justify more of the same.

 

clearly there aren't individuals from those nations or even the muslim community speaking up, and if there are, please, show me the light. However, as you said, violence should not beget violence, and as I said before, we are better than this and should not be treating POWs this way.

Man, some of you are SO ANAL when it comes to debating! His statement doesn't imply ALL arabs are dancing in the street. It implies MOST arabs are dancing in the streets. With the facts that we know about the arabs & their PREDOMINANT feelings towards us is hard to argue with that.

 

The main POINT he is trying to make is that historically the very fact that our feelings towards the arabs is not PREDOMINANTLY a medieval one is both rare & something America should be proud of. The fact that we are appauled more so by our own behavior than theirs is equally rare & something that sets us apart from ...

 

the rest of the filthy animals on this planet!

 

PS> I don't need to name names but the animals at the top of that list are also at the top of the oil for food iraqi scandal list. Hint: they talk funny & we like to make fun of their accents.

[IlliniBob72]

Not such a great post, Bob.  Shame on those who will suggest otherwise.

 

Of course there are such people in Iraq and the rest of teh Arab world that condemn the acts of violence perpetrated by rebels and insurgents.  If you don't believe your statement that - to a person - every Arab is "dancing in the streets" with each American that is mutilated, beheaded, or otherwise savaged then you are using sky-high hyperbole to paint it as black and white when you know it is not.

 

I understand the outrage, I feel outraged as well.  But, while violence certainly begets more of the same, it should be universally apparent by now that violence does not and can not justify more of the same.

I never mean to imply that every single breathing Iraqi was pro-corpse mutilation, but where is someone with a little bit of respect and power to state that civilized people do not act this way? Where was one person to stand up and say "Take those corpses down!" When Reginald Denny was beaten within an inch of his life for being white in a black area during the Rodney King riots, there were black people that came to his aid. Where were those type of people in Fallujah? Even when the crowd dispersed, the corpses were left hanging. Not one person came out to take them down.

 

Of course there are Arabs that are against violence, but until a few of them are willing to say so, out loud, not anonymously, nothing will change. There seems to be a protest or a flag-burning biweekly over there, yet no one will protest the way these terrorists are helping portray their people. Either there is no will to do so or no stomach to do so. Either way, at the very least, the Middle-Eastern people have a huge public relations problem.

 

I read today how a few Muslims said the beheading was abhorrent, while a few said it was good and/or understandable. But more importantly, Iranian news agencies were saying the west was attempting to use the beheading to deflect attention away from the prisoner abuse. This is typical. No statement whatsoever as to it's vileness. Just that it takes attention away from where it rightly belongs, Iraqis forced to wear panties on their heads.

 

And, no offense, but spare me the "violence begets violence" pap. What violence begat 9/11? Or the U.S.S. Cole? Or the first WTC bombing? Or the African embassy attacks? It seems to this observer that sitting around with your thumb up your ass also begets violence from these psychopaths.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

And, no offense, but spare me the "violence begets violence" pap. What violence begat 9/11? Or the U.S.S. Cole? Or the first WTC bombing? Or the African embassy attacks? It seems to this observer that sitting around with your thumb up your ass also begets violence from these psychopaths.

The violence that began 9/11. Gee, could it be the US proxy war in Afghanistan throughout the 80s when we left them with no support afterwards? (Note: In Muslim circles in the Mid-East this is known as "The Great Betrayal") Or our destabilization efforts in Iran of the fundie Islamic regime after propping up the Shah? Or how about Reagan and Bush preventing the hostages from being freed during the Iran-Contra scandal? Or the bi-weekly bombing and genocide of 1.2 million Iraqis due to US induced UN sanctions in Iraq? Our support for the apartheid regime in Israel that kills children with gunships and tanks...that just might be another reason.

 

Those were just a few instances of violence that came off the top of my head.

[kapkomet]

It seems to this observer that sitting around with your thumb up your ass also begets violence from these psychopaths.

DING DING DING!

 

Exactly the point.

[FlaSoxxJim]

I never mean to imply that every single breathing Iraqi was pro-corpse mutilation, but where is someone with a little bit of respect and power to state that civilized people do not act this way? Where was one person to stand up and say "Take those corpses down!" When Reginald Denny was beaten within an inch of his life for being white in a black area during the Rodney King riots, there were black people that came to his aid. Where were those type of people in Fallujah? Even when the crowd dispersed, the corpses were left hanging. Not one person came out to take them down.

 

Of course there are Arabs that are against violence, but until a few of them are willing to say so, out loud, not anonymously, nothing will change. There seems to be a protest or a flag-burning biweekly over there, yet no one will protest the way these terrorists are helping portray their people. Either there is no will to do so or no stomach to do so. Either way, at the very least, the Middle-Eastern people have a huge public relations problem.

 

I read today how a few Muslims said the beheading was abhorrent, while a few said it was good and/or understandable. But more importantly, Iranian news agencies were saying the west was attempting to use the beheading to deflect attention away from the prisoner abuse. This is typical. No statement whatsoever as to it's vileness. Just that it takes attention away from where it rightly belongs, Iraqis forced to wear panties on their heads.

 

And, no offense, but spare me the "violence begets violence" pap. What violence begat 9/11? Or the U.S.S. Cole? Or the first WTC bombing? Or the African embassy attacks? It seems to this observer that sitting around with your thumb up your ass also begets violence from these psychopaths.

I know your true intent was not to categorically declare 100% of Arabs to be praising the beheading or similar acts, but your blanket assessment of the Arab world "dancing in the streets" implies as much, and that is why I labeled the statement as hyperbole. Incendiary, over the top language comes easily in the wake of horrific news, but at the end of the day it is not of much value (other than possible catharsis).

 

As far as those in Iraq and elsewhere in the Arab world standing against this, Kapkomet's post in another thread this morning is maybe the closest thing we have to a first-hand account:

 

It's not the Iraqi people as a rule, though. It's outside influences. I had the pleasure of listening to a contractor that has been over there and was home last week for "vacation". He said that 95% of the people over there were great. And it's the 5% that you have to worry about - and about 4.99% of the 5% were outside influences trying to drive the US out.

 

Clearly the entire country hasn't taken up arms in the street. And, sure, you would like a courageous few of the "good ones" to speak out in condemnation, rail against it. I assume many are and we do not see it, and I assume many, many more are fearful of retribution against them (old habits are hard to break). Truthfully, of the many Iraqi allies that are working toward rebuilding the country – police and government administrators, etc. – how many have already been killed by terrorists because government buildings and police stations are easy targets and the terrorists see these people as traitors working with the enemy? Still, these low-level ordinary people go out and try to tend to the business of rebuilding their country and their lives.

 

You also note that you have heard some Muslims speaking out against tthe violence, so that is good.

 

As far as "spare me the violence.. pap", no offense taken. And I see Apu has beaten me to a response in very able fashion (as per usual).

[IlliniBob72]

The violence that began 9/11.  Gee, could it be the US proxy war in Afghanistan throughout the 80s when we left them with no support afterwards?  (Note: In Muslim circles in the Mid-East this is known as "The Great Betrayal")  Or our destabilization efforts in Iran of the fundie Islamic regime after propping up the Shah?  Or how about Reagan and Bush preventing the hostages from being freed during the Iran-Contra scandal?  Or the bi-weekly bombing and genocide of 1.2 million Iraqis due to US induced UN sanctions in Iraq?  Our support for the apartheid regime in Israel that kills children with gunships and tanks...that just might be another reason.

 

Those were just a few instances of violence that came off the top of my head.

Good Lord, Apu, are you serious? Our proxy war in Afghanistan? s***, why didn't the Kremlin take a few DC-10s, seeing as they conducted an actual war in Afghanistan? Your first three examples were 12-20 years ago. Genocide in Iraq? I think it has been well proven that Saddam and others scammed the system and did very well for themselves, at the expense of his people. Why didn't he have a plane flown into his palace? Apartheid regime in Israel? That's laughable. Of course, why would Israelis want to be separated from people bent on their destruction? How ludicrous! Those Israelis sure can be overly sensitive!

 

Besides, there's a difference between having foreign policy contrary to the interests of a group of people and chopping off someone's head. I suppose if I chop off a liberal's head for voting against Bush in order to end the war on terrorism, I can claim, hey, your violence begets my violence.