Steff Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 I watched it. Plenty of blood, IMO. His hands and feet were tied so I don't know how much squirming he would have been able to do. As for the standing... they stood like... they were standing.. The only thing I thought was weird was a guy on the end who kept fidigiting (sp??). Clearly nervous, IMO.. like he totally did not want to be there. As for their skin color... that is hysterical. And the page turning.. the the guy appeared to have 2 sheets written on back and front. He turned them 4 times. To anyone who wants to check out the supposed inconsistancies in the speech part.. the actual act is about the last 45 seconds and you would have time to turn away if you didn't want to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 11) When Berg decapitated, there was almost no blood. If Berg were still alive at this point, with the cut starting at front of throat, blood would have been spraying everywhere. Berg's severed head, the floor, Berg's clothes, and even the hand of the "Arab" who decapitated Berg had no visible blood on it. So? The author appears to base his observations off Hollywood movies. Films such of Kill Bill showcase a decapitation followed by a geyser of blood. I know from Anatomy that's not true, and I don't need personal experience to prove myself. Think about it , what could be the only alternative to this situation: that his captures drained all the blood out of his body, it was a dummy, or this was real and since nobody has witnessed a decapitation they don't know what to expect. No, the lack of a lot of spurting blood is anomalous. The carotid artery has blood flowing through it with enough pressure to be the best place to take a pulse and is less than a foot away from the aortic arch in an adult male. If the heart was pumping, there would be blood spurting once the carotid is severed in someone with a strong heartbeat and it would flow readily at the very least in someone with a weak heart. People bleed to death quite effortlessly if the carotid is severed, as approximately 1/3 of the more than 5 liters per minute pumped from the heart in an adult is directed there. That would not be the case if someone was already dead by the time the carotid was severed. Having declined to watch the video I don't know which orientation the beheading followed. having read graphic descriptions of Berg's head being more sawn off than cut off, it is entirely possible that he expired and his heart stopped before the carotid was cut. Or has my anatomy knowledge gone awry? It has been 10 years since I have had to teach the subject, but I figured I'd retain the big stuff. At least I can still rattle off the 12 cranial nerves at parties, and let me tell you about all the superfine ladies that are impressed by that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Jim I talked to my neighbor (who is a ER Nurse) about this exact thing and she said the same thing. Honestly.. the guy appears to be "alive" for about 5 seconds into the attack. IMO.. his heart stopped from sheer shock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighHeat45 Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 no way in hell im watchin this s*** :puke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Jim I talked to my neighbor (who is a ER Nurse) about this exact thing and she said the same thing. Honestly.. the guy appears to be "alive" for about 5 seconds into the attack. IMO.. his heart stopped from sheer shock. Yep. But more importantly... Don'tcha want to see me list the 12 cranial nerves?? No, I thought not. That one had a good old-fashioned dirty mnemonic device to help you remember it too, courtesy of the St. Ignatius Jebbies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Prawn Posted May 12, 2004 Author Share Posted May 12, 2004 no way in hell im watchin this s*** :puke Me neither. The descriptions here are graphic enough without having to watch a helpless man have his head sawed off. May he rest in peace. As to the list Apu posted, it brought up a couple questions I had about the stills (I had these questions before the detaining information came out). One was the orange jumpsuit and the other was about the difference in appearance. The appearance could be from lack of shaving/eating while detained (by the US and Al-Qaida). In the long run, it doesn't matter because it won't change that this kid died so viciously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Gleason Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 I've watched my share of Horror films, in fact I am a reviewer for numerous Horror sites and magazines, and there is no way I have eny interest in seeing this. I like my stuff fake. Heck, I can't even take Horror films after 1970 for the most part anymore. I will say that when I first saw the pictures of Mr. Berg though, in the jump suit, I did think to myself that this has happened at an awfully convenient time for Bush and the rest of the people trying to skirt the abuse topic. I don't think it is a conspiracy, but this time out, the reasons to buy into one are all over the place, if you let your mind work in those ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Gleason Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Me neither. The descriptions here are graphic enough without having to watch a helpless man have his head sawed off. May he rest in peace. As to the list Apu posted, it brought up a couple questions I had about the stills (I had these questions before the detaining information came out). One was the orange jumpsuit and the other was about the difference in appearance. The appearance could be from lack of shaving/eating while detained (by the US and Al-Qaida). In the long run, it doesn't matter because it won't change that this kid died so viciously. I think what the conspiracy folk are getting at is that he DIDN'T die, and that it is all FX. That is where the WAG THE DOG comparrison comes into play. Also the lack of blood. Though the lack of blood is just where the conspiracy falls apart. How hard do people think it would be to fake that stuff? Hire Tom Savini and you will have yourself enough blood to satisfy any loon. FX have come so far any goof can do a bang up gore effect in there own bedroom if they wanted to. The last thing a faked death lacks is blood, it usually goes over board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 LOL. If you've seen the video (which you haven't,Apu) several of the men ARE STANDING STILL THE ENTIRE MOVIE. How the hell can you say the way they stand is a "western style" Do people in the middle east stand in a different posture? :headshake 4) Alleged "scream" from Berg sounded to be that of a woman and was clearly dubbed in. That girl on Oprah whose faced burned off in a drunken car wreck, firemen at the scene described her screams as very 'manly'. I guess it all evens out at the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 I think what the conspiracy folk are getting at is that he DIDN'T die, and that it is all FX. That is where the WAG THE DOG comparrison comes into play. Also the lack of blood. Though the lack of blood is just where the conspiracy falls apart. How hard do people think it would be to fake that stuff? Hire Tom Savini and you will have yourself enough blood to satisfy any loon. FX have come so far any goof can do a bang up gore effect in there own bedroom if they wanted to. The last thing a faked death lacks is blood, it usually goes over board. Savini was busy working on "Chill Factor" and also just started work on "Loaded Dice and Lowlifes." I always liked Stan Winston and Rick Baker more anyway, though nobody does zombies like Savini. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 What probably happened... Let out of US custody, sought out Iraqi militants for sympathy etc.. The kidnapped him, told him of a "fake" murder video plan that they needed an American for. He co-operated.. They made the video, but shot him dead on the floor between the edited scenes. He was already dead when they beheaded him, thus no blood spray.. Scream was edited in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 What probably happened... Let out of US custody, sought out Iraqi militants for sympathy etc.. The kidnapped him, told him of a "fake" murder video plan that they needed an American for. He co-operated.. They made the video, but shot him dead on the floor between the edited scenes. He was already dead when they beheaded him, thus no blood spray.. Scream was edited in. Conspiracy plotlines aside, the basic story makes sense: Berg's job guarantee that brought him back to Iraq fizzled out. With no sponsor, he kicked around trying to get consulting work (turns out the guy was brilliant). he gives up and is trying to get back to teh US when he is picked up by Iraqi police at a checkpoint on March 30. With no military connections and no government or private sector sponsor there doesn't seem to be a good reason he is there. The FBI are appraised and make a visit to his family asking what he was doing in Iraq, and meet with him several times while he was being detained to discuss the same. Why he was not allowed any communication with his family is beyond me, as the calls or emails could have been monitored and he was not a threat in any way. 13 days after he is picked up, and right after his dad finally sues for wrongful imprisonment he is released, but still without any military, government, or private sector sponsorship to aid him in leaving the country. He is an American alone at the height of anti-American outrage over Abu Ghraib, is an easy target for the militants who kidnap him and the rest is history. I don't think the militants told him what was going to happen to him and only told him to identify himself on a video that would be used to ransom him or whatever, so it isn't odd that he could fairly calmly state his identity. It was only then that the plans for him became apparent. I'm ashamed that this straightforward narrative seems plausable - my conspiracy theory club card will peobebly be revoked. Still, plausabe, probable, etc., is not enough to say that's for sure how it happened and it's good to scrutinize. In any event the Coalition forces that detained him sans communication and then sent him out on his own will take a lot of heat I'm sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonkeyKongerko Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 I've always been curious in these videos that there seems to be little struggle between captive and captor. Is it because the hostage has been drugged or beaten into submission or is he simply resigned to the fact that his life is no longer in his control? As for blood spray, there is no guarantee of such a thing from a slow decapitation except in Hollywood. The 11 hour time indexing thing is curious but to be the skeptics' skeptic, why would the US government give us doubts about the video's authenticity if they wanted us to believe it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniBob72 Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Apu is saying that he went from US custody directly into terrorist hands. Not true. He was released by the U.S., called his folks to whom he told he wasn't treated poorly, and three days after that his communications with them ended. In another thread I was discussing the differences between Americans and our enemies. Here's another example that occured to me. There are probably 5-10 Americans in enemy hands, while we are detaining hundreds or thousands. If it were the other way around, would we publicly decapitate one of our prisoners? No, because we know it would lead to dozens of our own soldiers in captivity being beheaded. Either these terrorists don't care if we decapitate prisoners in retaliation, hope we do, or know that we won't. I am guessing the latter, though the first two options wouldn't shock me either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniBob72 Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 I also heard on a radio news report that Berg was offered a trip home by the military but he refused. Whether that is true or not, we can never really be sure, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Gleason Posted May 13, 2004 Share Posted May 13, 2004 I always liked Stan Winston and Rick Baker more anyway, though nobody does zombies like Savini. Winston and Baker are better with creatures, but NOBODY did gore in the 80's like Savini! Now days there are no great "artists, just companies. Though Baker keeps proving he is more than a mortal man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted May 13, 2004 Share Posted May 13, 2004 Winston and Baker are better with creatures, but NOBODY did gore in the 80's like Savini! Now days there are no great "artists, just companies. Though Baker keeps proving he is more than a mortal man. Digital killed the prosthetics star... (with apologies to the Buggles). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted May 13, 2004 Share Posted May 13, 2004 Winston and Baker are better with creatures, but NOBODY did gore in the 80's like Savini! Now days there are no great "artists, just companies. Though Baker keeps proving he is more than a mortal man. Wasn't it Baker who created all the transformation effects in American Werewolf in London? Whether it was him or not, that person did a hell of a job; the Academy Award for Special Effects (which doesn't mean anything today) was well deserved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted May 13, 2004 Share Posted May 13, 2004 Wasn't it Baker who created all the transformation effects in American Werewolf in London? Whether it was him or not, that person did a hell of a job; the Academy Award for Special Effects (which doesn't mean anything today) was well deserved. Yes it was Baker... Did the Michael Jackson "Thriller" Video too, and lots of Star Wars aliens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted May 13, 2004 Share Posted May 13, 2004 Regarding the lack of blood. Does anybody remember the name Clint Malarchuk (sp?). He was a goalie with the Buffalo Sabres that had his carotid severed by a skate blade. There was no lack of blood in that grisly scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonkeyKongerko Posted May 13, 2004 Share Posted May 13, 2004 Regarding the lack of blood. Does anybody remember the name Clint Malarchuk (sp?). He was a goalie with the Buffalo Sabres that had his carotid severed by a skate blade. There was no lack of blood in that grisly scene. Ahh they were showing that on some Sportscenter segment not too long ago. Most blood I've ever seen in a sporting event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted May 13, 2004 Share Posted May 13, 2004 Conspiracy plotlines aside, the basic story makes sense: Berg's job guarantee that brought him back to Iraq fizzled out. With no sponsor, he kicked around trying to get consulting work (turns out the guy was brilliant). he gives up and is trying to get back to teh US when he is picked up by Iraqi police at a checkpoint on March 30. With no military connections and no government or private sector sponsor there doesn't seem to be a good reason he is there. The FBI are appraised and make a visit to his family asking what he was doing in Iraq, and meet with him several times while he was being detained to discuss the same. Why he was not allowed any communication with his family is beyond me, as the calls or emails could have been monitored and he was not a threat in any way. 13 days after he is picked up, and right after his dad finally sues for wrongful imprisonment he is released, but still without any military, government, or private sector sponsorship to aid him in leaving the country. He is an American alone at the height of anti-American outrage over Abu Ghraib, is an easy target for the militants who kidnap him and the rest is history. I don't think the militants told him what was going to happen to him and only told him to identify himself on a video that would be used to ransom him or whatever, so it isn't odd that he could fairly calmly state his identity. It was only then that the plans for him became apparent. I'm ashamed that this straightforward narrative seems plausable - my conspiracy theory club card will peobebly be revoked. Still, plausabe, probable, etc., is not enough to say that's for sure how it happened and it's good to scrutinize. In any event the Coalition forces that detained him sans communication and then sent him out on his own will take a lot of heat I'm sure. That was almost the same conclusion I had. I assume he was dead before the decapitated him. Since they dumped the body, I am certain an autopsy will show what happened. What will be interesting is if an autopsy is done, by whom, and if the family and public will be told the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted May 13, 2004 Share Posted May 13, 2004 http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119810,00.html Apparently he was in Iraqi Police custody for suspicious activity and the U.S. Military was aware of his detainment. He was offered a flight out of Iraq but declined saying the route to the airport was not safe. The only thing people cant figure is how he ended up in the grips of these militant assclowns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted May 13, 2004 Share Posted May 13, 2004 http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119810,00.html Apparently he was in Iraqi Police custody for suspicious activity and the U.S. Military was aware of his detainment. He was offered a flight out of Iraq but declined saying the route to the airport was not safe. The only thing people cant figure is how he ended up in the grips of these militant assclowns. That all seems reasonable, even his declining the ride to the airport although the articles I read today implied he was stupid for refusing. If I was offered a ride in a marked military transport vehicle along a route that has been dubbbed "RPG Road" in reference to the attacks on Coalition military that have occurred there, in the current hostile environment over there, I might just decline as well. For better or worse, here was a guy who had (until being picked up on March 30) safely travelled unaccompanied in a place where few other westerners are right now. He may have had concerns but decided he would be less of a target if he continued to move in a low-profile way on his own. Sadly, it seems not to have worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 I think they just proved that... The beheading wasn't "payback", Steff. Radical Islamists need NO excuse(s) to kill innocents! Especially if they are American or Israeli. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.