cwsox Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 ill put the over under on jose errors this year at 24...i bet you he doesnt make more than 24 errors this year from an earlier post in this thread...you would be screaming to trade ray durham now????...lofton yes but durham???...i rate ray as one of the top 5 2nd baseman in baseball right now...why trade him?? if you are right on the over/under for Jose, that would be good - still too many, but we could probably live with that I have always had very mixed feelings on Ray - liked him more than many but less than others - I know he is one of your favs and don't totally understand your total high esteem but never liked people who tarshed him either - so I will retrack my statement about trading Ray now if he were still with us - is he going to play 2nd where he is at now (SF?). And who are your top 5 2nd basemen? I do so hope Harris can hit because his speed is great and I think he can be a very good infielder - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 he is back on 2nd in san fran id go with kent , vidro , alomar ,durham , soriano , not i nany particular order feel like im forgetting an obvious choice here..oh year junior spivey durham fits in that group somewhere...and of course if you talking to cub fans - bobby hill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 Um...If Harris is at 2nd, and Jimenez is at SS, where does Jose go? He goes where ever he is going to go anyway after we don't resign him for the contract range that he will be in - I suggest we trade him now because after he makes 35-36 more errors at short and if he hits what he hit last year (less than Clayton and you can look it up) and given his age and contract range, he will have no trade value. We might get something for him now. ill put the over under on jose errors this year at 24...i bet you he doesnt make more than 24 errors this year from an earlier post in this thread...you would be screaming to trade ray durham now????...lofton yes but durham???...i rate ray as one of the top 5 2nd baseman in baseball right now...why trade him?? If he gets that under Baggs, I'll be so happy with Manos, that I'll call him a GOOD, hell make that a great shortstop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 18, 2003 Share Posted February 18, 2003 You know what I don't understand? People here are trashing Jose because of his defense, yet would take Garciaparra in a second over Valentin(I would too if given the chance).....most of them think that Garciaparra also plays better defense. HE DOESN'T. In fact, from what I understand, he probably plays WORSE defense than Jose. His bat is undeniably good and he does have a pretty good glove...hell, he's a top 3 SS(him being in the group of ARod, who is the obvious #1 choice, and Tejada as well....Jeter blows). However, if we were to trade Valentin straight up for Garciaparra, we would be taking on an extra $13-15 mill in salary. What I'm mainly venting about here is how good Jose is for what he costs....you couldn't spend $5 million on the open market and get something better than Jose...he is a team leader, he has good range, though does make a lot of errors, he will hit .250 25 70 every year guaranteed and when he has someone protecting him he can hit .270-.280 with 25-30 homers and 90-100 RBI and he hits very well in clutch situations, and as a bonus, he's left-handed with the stick...and when healthy, he can steal between 15-25 bases. He does strike out more than he should(he'll K about 100 times a year) and he doesn't walk enough....but if he did those things, and everything else....he's be a $10 mill man. That's the best product $5 million could get you on today's market. What, would you rather have the Choice back for $1 mill? Hey, he could hit under .200(and at times under .100) for the first two months of the year and then when we are out of it start to hit well, make just the plays that come to him and show no range, whine to Jerry and the media when he is benched and cause all sorts of hell in the clubhouse....is that what you want? Personally, I'll choose Jose and his extra $4 mill on his salary ANY day of the week over the Choice....and for that matter, Jimenez at SS as well. We are supposedly a team that is supposed to compete...and as it is, we have about 4 players who are playing their first full year in the majors as a starter(Rowand has played in both 2001 and 2002, but never has had a full time starting job)....you are telling me you'd like to get rid of Jose and add even more youth to the equation, making it even more of a b**** to compete with the "powerful" Twinkies? If Harris had an incredible year, he could hit .280 with an OBP of about .340 and he could steal 30-40 bases....most likely, he'd hit about .240 with an OBP(not an average) of about .280 with 15-25 steals while playing defense just as well as Jimenez would. I'd personally rather go with the guaranteed .250 25 70 from Jose, even if he plays s***ty routine defense while making the spectacular play once a week or so....atleast I know what I'd get. Jose makes $5 million....that is cheap for what we are receiving on the field. He is one of the more valuable pieces on the team, IMO, right behind Frank, Maggs and Buehrle....hell, I'd trade Paulie before Valentin....you don't normally find SS's who can hit 25 homers without striking out 188 times(*cough*Jose Hernandez*cough*). It trule is a rarity in today's game. Also, without him, we have no lefty power in the lineup ANYWHERE....and then we don't get what I talked about up above as well. Rant over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Lofton was disgracefully bad. I liked Ray for a time, but I agree with chisox fan, it was time for new blood regarding Ray. To get rid of Lofton, Clayton and Ray is pretty damn nice. I just wish we didn't have alomar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 You know what I don't understand? People here are trashing Jose because of his defense, yet would take Garciaparra in a second over Valentin(I would too if given the chance).....most of them think that Garciaparra also plays better defense. HE DOESN'T. In fact, from what I understand, he probably plays WORSE defense than Jose. garciaparra plays great defense..i always try and catch as many red sox games as i can at comiskey..and watch them whenever i can on tv..i always liked them...ive seen garciaparra enough (especially at comiskey) to know he is a GREAT defensive SS...he will make his share of errors like jose...but his a range and arm are even better than valentin's...and jose's is right with the best of them...i saw nomar go about 4 steps into the outfield between 3rd and SS to field a ball at comiskey...im thinking well he will just put that in his pocket...instead he jumps and whirls a throw towards first...i couldnt believe how hard he threw it..he just flicked his wrist as he turned towards first while he was still going towards the 3rd base foul line and a bullet is right on the money getting the runner by a full step...it was the greatest play by a SS ive ever seen...myself and a few others at comiskey gave him a standing O...he has to have the quickest release in baseball today...ive seen him make a few other plays like that too..enough to know this guy is as good as it gets..despite the errors... as for what you said about jose...bravo...i agree 100%..he is my favorite player on the sox right now for all the reasons you stated... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSoxPride3035 Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 I admit Garciaprra doesn't have the best defense, but he has a better defense then Valentin, not to mention a more explosive offense. A lot of people would choose Nomar over Valentin, but Valentin is what the White Sox have right now, and I'm fine with that. He hasn't caused the White Sox any problems, he is a pretty good all around player, he could use some more work than others, but he is good. He was up for the Clemente Award this year was a great honor. He may not have the best defense or the best offense on the White Sox, but I am happy to have him in the White Sox lineup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 A lot of people would choose Nomar over Valentin You'd be crazy not to....I was just showing how similar they actually are. Valentin is probably a very good spark for the team....in 2000, we had him at SS and he ignited out lineup(along with Thomas's production). In 01 and 02, he was not playing SS....he was not sparking the lineup. When he got SS back in August, we started playing well again. It is something about him playing SS that just does that....it's like a mojo or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supernuke Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 A lot of people would choose Nomar over Valentin You'd be crazy not to....I was just showing how similar they actually are. Valentin is probably a very good spark for the team....in 2000, we had him at SS and he ignited out lineup(along with Thomas's production). In 01 and 02, he was not playing SS....he was not sparking the lineup. When he got SS back in August, we started playing well again. It is something about him playing SS that just does that....it's like a mojo or something. Fisrt of all I really like Jose but people keep giving him so much credit for the teams success in 2000 and the end of 2002, it seems to me that that success had alot more to do with Franks bat than Jose playing short. Jose should be playing at SS but I have to give Frank the bulk of the credit for the success of the team during those two periods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan420 Posted February 19, 2003 Author Share Posted February 19, 2003 A lot of people would choose Nomar over Valentin You'd be crazy not to....I was just showing how similar they actually are. Valentin is probably a very good spark for the team....in 2000, we had him at SS and he ignited out lineup(along with Thomas's production). In 01 and 02, he was not playing SS....he was not sparking the lineup. When he got SS back in August, we started playing well again. It is something about him playing SS that just does that....it's like a mojo or something. Fisrt of all I really like Jose but people keep giving him so much credit for the teams success in 2000 and the end of 2002, it seems to me that that success had alot more to do with Franks bat than Jose playing short. Jose should be playing at SS but I have to give Frank the bulk of the credit for the success of the team during those two periods. dont forget our young pitchers really pitched alot better too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 witesoxfan, great rant. I'm glad we are putting Valentin back at SS. We are a much better team when he is there. supernuke: I personally give Jose a lot of credit for the 2000 season. I do that because I watched himplay the game. The dude is just a gamer. He'll do anything he can to try and beat you. Hell, look at the Cubs game where Jose mocked Sosa. While the Cubs are out of the field with one eye on Jose in the Sox dugout, the next guy (Lee?) hits a long one. It's been awhile and I don't remember the details, but that was what won that game. I remember hearing Tommy Williams on the score give Valentin hell about that one night. I emailed him and pointed out, with more detail, basically what I've said about that game here. He emailed me back and said that I made some very valid points, but he still didn't like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 witesoxfan, great rant. I'm glad we are putting Valentin back at SS. We are a much better team when he is there. supernuke: I personally give Jose a lot of credit for the 2000 season. I do that because I watched himplay the game. The dude is just a gamer. He'll do anything he can to try and beat you. Hell, look at the Cubs game where Jose mocked Sosa. While the Cubs are out of the field with one eye on Jose in the Sox dugout, the next guy (Lee?) hits a long one. It's been awhile and I don't remember the details, but that was what won that game. I remember hearing Tommy Williams on the score give Valentin hell about that one night. I emailed him and pointed out, with more detail, basically what I've said about that game here. He emailed me back and said that I made some very valid points, but he still didn't like it. cubkilla, rps , guido and myself were at that game...and i swear to god jose was looking right at us when he mocked samme..we were right behind home plate a little to the first base side...we were the only sox fans in our section..god did we go nuts when he did that...jose will always be one of my favorites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 Jimenez will win Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 19, 2003 Share Posted February 19, 2003 witesoxfan, great rant. I'm glad we are putting Valentin back at SS. We are a much better team when he is there. supernuke: I personally give Jose a lot of credit for the 2000 season. I do that because I watched himplay the game. The dude is just a gamer. He'll do anything he can to try and beat you. Hell, look at the Cubs game where Jose mocked Sosa. While the Cubs are out of the field with one eye on Jose in the Sox dugout, the next guy (Lee?) hits a long one. It's been awhile and I don't remember the details, but that was what won that game. I remember hearing Tommy Williams on the score give Valentin hell about that one night. I emailed him and pointed out, with more detail, basically what I've said about that game here. He emailed me back and said that I made some very valid points, but he still didn't like it. cubkilla, rps , guido and myself were at that game...and i swear to god jose was looking right at us when he mocked samme..we were right behind home plate a little to the first base side...we were the only sox fans in our section..god did we go nuts when he did that...jose will always be one of my favorites That would be sweet as hell to experience...I've heard so many stories of our 2000 season that I didn't have a clue about. I really wasn't into baseball and as knowledgeable about the game as I am now. I've heard about Singleton's sliding into a person with his cleats out and Jose's mock and the fight with Detroit as well(and I've heard that that was really what caused the hot streak). The fact that we play the Twins early this year and that there is bad blood between both teams is very nice....by no means am I wishing bodily harm on either team....but having Koch knock Pierzynski on his ass once or twice could get AJ to charge the mound and clear the benches....we could then get hot and be unstoppable. This is the kind of team that has the potential to go on some long winning streaks....we have some very good talent in the rotation, very good talent in the bullpen and a very talented lineup....if those 3 are all clicking at the same time....watch out. I wouldn't be surprised to see us win 10-15 straight at sometime this year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 The way I see it, if spiking a guy is going to get you on base, and its a key situation go for it. This is a hard nosed game and I like baseball the way it used to be played, as in every player hard hard hard. I'm all for a players protection, but they already have like a 5 foot cushion over on second, so if I'm a player and they are on the bag, I'm going full speed to break it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Hell, look at the Cubs game where Jose mocked Sosa. While the Cubs are out of the field with one eye on Jose in the Sox dugout, the next guy (Lee?) hits a long one. It's been awhile and I don't remember the details, but that was what won that game. I remember hearing Tommy Williams on the score give Valentin hell about that one night. I emailed him and pointed out, with more detail, basically what I've said about that game here. He emailed me back and said that I made some very valid points, but he still didn't like it. YASNY, you are very wrong. Jose did not mock Sosa, he was merely saying hi to his kids. I never thought about that game you explained it and I think you are right! For some reason i was home from work that afetrnoon and atching the game on WGN and online on the MLB boards when it happened - if they still have it archived, I posted about so damned fast while I was laughing so hard - one of those by yourself computer moments you never forget Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 That is one helluva great memory. I'm telling you people... Jose Valentin is a winner! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okgoh Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Second base. Durham How did we let that one get away? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Second base. Durham How did we let that one get away? out of all the guys KW let walk..durham is the one i cant figure out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Second base. Durham How did we let that one get away? out of all the guys KW let walk..durham is the one i cant figure out The KW backers will say that we would have lost him anyway and that, if all we could get for Ray was Adkins, that there mustn't have been a market for him in the first place. I would have held onto Ray and taken my chances with him in the offseason if all we could have gotten for him during the 2002 season was Adkins. KW's backers would say that if we did that, we probably wouldn't have gotten anything for Ray. I'm saying it's the same thing with Adkins. I don't think we'll ever see him at USCF in a White Sox uni. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 I'd have to agree...trading Durham was a dumb, dumb move Had we been able to sign Durham in the offseason....we wouldn't even be having this debate right now. We'd have an All-Star 2Bman who can leadoff and hit for some decent power. He plays solid defense, though he's never been able to go to his right. He turns double plays very well however. Had we offered him arbitration and he turned it down, then we'd get a first or second round pick from the team that signed him(in this case, a first rounder from the Giants). We'd be able to draft someone better than Jon Adkins Had we flat out lost him to FA....we wouldn't have had the bad rep of trading an All-Star for a bum minor leaguer....teams don't get bad reps because they can't afford/don't pay their players loads of money....KW doesn't look as bad as he does now. If he could have gotten Esteban German as well(who I believe is the A's top 2B prospect), I would have been fine with the deal....but to get just Adkins...it pisses a person off. However, that happened like 7 months ago....it happened, we ripped KW, and now it's over with. We really need to get over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 I'd have to agree...trading Durham was a dumb, dumb move Had we been able to sign Durham in the offseason....we wouldn't even be having this debate right now. We'd have an All-Star 2Bman who can leadoff and hit for some decent power. He plays solid defense, though he's never been able to go to his right. He turns double plays very well however. Had we offered him arbitration and he turned it down, then we'd get a first or second round pick from the team that signed him(in this case, a first rounder from the Giants). We'd be able to draft someone better than Jon Adkins Had we flat out lost him to FA....we wouldn't have had the bad rep of trading an All-Star for a bum minor leaguer....teams don't get bad reps because they can't afford/don't pay their players loads of money....KW doesn't look as bad as he does now. If he could have gotten Esteban German as well(who I believe is the A's top 2B prospect), I would have been fine with the deal....but to get just Adkins...it pisses a person off. However, that happened like 7 months ago....it happened, we ripped KW, and now it's over with. We really need to get over it. i agree with everything you said...ive notice we are agreeing alot lately...i dont if thats good or bad..depends on who you talk to i guess..lol but youre right we do need to get over it..but its hard when the biggest weakness of this team is up the middle and lack of speed and experience in the lead off spot...when we traded nellie fox back in the 60's..it took all the way until durham in 94 to find a permament replacement... here is the list of 2nd baseman between durham and fox....just think if it takes that long to find durham's replacement 93 - cora 92 - sax 91 - 90 - fletcher 89 - lyons 88 - 87 - marique 86 - hullett / cruz 85 - 84 - cruz 83 - cruz - bernazard 82 - 81 bernazard 80 - morrison 79 - bannister 78 - 77 - orta 76 - brohamer 75 - 73 - orta 72 -71 - andrews 70 - 69 - knoop(CWSOX- all time favorite ) 68 - alomar 67 - causey 66 - weiss 65 - buford 64 - weiss 63 - nellis fox last season looks like the scrubs trying to replace santo at 3rd... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Let them battle it out in spring training, simple. I think D should be able to win out the job, i think he's got some sleeper potential this year. Keep in mind, he was more hyped than Soriano until his accident. That's not saying he's the next Soriano, not saying that at all. But he's got some talent. Instead, i'd rather see Harris take over CF for Rowand, especially if Rowand is still banged up from his dirt bike accident, which he probly will be. He won't be 100%, no doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSoxPride3035 Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 I'd have to agree...trading Durham was a dumb, dumb move Had we been able to sign Durham in the offseason....we wouldn't even be having this debate right now. We'd have an All-Star 2Bman who can leadoff and hit for some decent power. He plays solid defense, though he's never been able to go to his right. He turns double plays very well however. Had we offered him arbitration and he turned it down, then we'd get a first or second round pick from the team that signed him(in this case, a first rounder from the Giants). We'd be able to draft someone better than Jon Adkins Had we flat out lost him to FA....we wouldn't have had the bad rep of trading an All-Star for a bum minor leaguer....teams don't get bad reps because they can't afford/don't pay their players loads of money....KW doesn't look as bad as he does now. If he could have gotten Esteban German as well(who I believe is the A's top 2B prospect), I would have been fine with the deal....but to get just Adkins...it pisses a person off. However, that happened like 7 months ago....it happened, we ripped KW, and now it's over with. We really need to get over it. Totally agree here, as well. We are all kicking ourselves for trading Durham. As stated, he is a great leadoff hitter who can also hit for some power (hit 20 HR's in 2001 season). He is very capable of putting up All-Star calibur numbers again. It'd be cool to see Durham make the NL All-Star team and we could see him again here in the South Side. Then again, we are playing the NL West for interleague games, so we will be seeing him sooner or later. Either way, I would much rather have Durham at second and solve most of our problems in the middle infield situation we are in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 20, 2003 Share Posted February 20, 2003 Let them battle it out in spring training, simple. I think D should be able to win out the job, i think he's got some sleeper potential this year. Keep in mind, he was more hyped than Soriano until his accident. That's not saying he's the next Soriano, not saying that at all. But he's got some talent. Instead, i'd rather see Harris take over CF for Rowand, especially if Rowand is still banged up from his dirt bike accident, which he probly will be. He won't be 100%, no doubt. Rowand is a month ahead in his rehab...and he will be our starting CFer....Jimenez will probably be the 2Bman and Harris will make the roster as a backup 2B/CF/pinch runner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.