Spinoff of the 3 Team Rumor

[Chisoxfn]

If this rumor is actually legit, then why don't the Sox get involved. I'd think that Carlos Lee would be more attractive then Johnny Damon (thats right). The Mariners already have two players similar to Damon in Wynn and Ichiro so it would make no sense for them to have a 3rd. They need some power and Carlos Lee fits that bill. Now the Sox can't offer someone like Byun Yun Kim, but someone like Jon Rauch and maybe the Mariners bite.

 

Now the Sox have a pretty damn good pitcher who has playoff experience and is still relatively young, just getting ready to reach his prime (heck, he may be starting that right now). We lose a little offense, but at the same time gain pitching which to me is what wins championships. Maggs, Thomas, Juan, Willie and Jose can do this.

 

The Sox now have a void in the outfield where they can call up Jeremy Reed who is struggling or they can move Rowand/Gload to left field and play Willie in center, meaning Juan and Jose can play. Once Reed is ready he can replace Rowand/Gload.

 

The other option is the Sox could go out and find an outfielder for relatively cheap if they wanted to or they could put their focus on giving Garcia for Beltran, which to me would be an absurd deal for the Royals, but its whats rumored.

 

Now lets go with that, yes that increases the Sox payroll by about 4 million, BUT, the Sox now can put Maggs on the block and maybe sign Beltran to a 14-15 mill a year deal. Thats right, Beltran is a player worth that type of money, more so then Magglio.

 

Then they can use Magglio to get their other bounty and now have a lefty to fit in with Thomas, Konerko, Crede and then of course Jose as your other lefty.

 

What could the Sox get for Maggs? Who knows, but they sure could get at least one good pitcher thats young and then some top prospects I'd think. And the Sox dont' skip a beat between Carlos and Magglio. The only difference is Carlos can play amazing centerfield, steals bases, and is a lefty.

[EvilJester99]

Maybe the Sox could find a way to chip in Valentin as well

[Chisoxfn]

I say if the Sox can replace Maggs with Beltran (whose a stud) then personally I'd do it.

 

Beltran is 27 and is hitting .299 with a .395 OBP with 10 HR and 28 RBI on the season. He also has 10 stolen bases and was caught once.

 

Heck, if the SOx could somehow do this, I'd add one of our better prospects to sweeten the deal.

[The Beast]

What a post by Chisoxfn! Way to go Jason! Sounds good...I'd really like to keep Maggs on the south side. It all depends on what we are doing with Minnesota. In my opinion, if we don't do so well, Maggs is a sitting duck by June 1st. They will trade him for a pitcher, honestly thats what they would do because they are not willing to pay a salary of 14 mil that is up after the season for nothing and let the other guy go as a free agent.

[Chisoxfn]

Well, on the other side, if the Sox were in contention, they could keep Beltran (according to espn he makes 9 mill this year, for some reason I thought it was 11).

 

This means the Sox payroll increases about 2-3 million (remember they dealt Lee). Now this would be risky, holding onto two guys, Maggs and Beltran and hoping you can resign one at the end of the season and then get compensation for the other in some form. But then the SOx could use Konerko and try to move him to free up salary and maybe add a reasonable #5 pitcher.

 

This means the Sox payroll basically stays even. If you do this move now, you give Sox fans about a month and a half to show up. If they do, then JR may be able to losen the purse strings for KW to allow him to get the extra pitcher they need.

 

Could you imagine, Maggs, Beltran, Thomas in whatever order and then you have Jose and Crede behind that.

 

On the other side, if even after these moves the Sox for whatever reason fall out of contention, then you unload the two of them and should get a lot in return.

[Soxbadger]

Ive thought that Lee or Maggs could get moved to Seattle also, if they could come up with a deal.

 

Personally I think Lee might get us Zito if we really are interested in trading him, because hes signed for 2 years at a price like Zito and would give the A's a guy in the OF where as they can replace Zito with there arms in the minors.

 

Id take Garcia too though, as I really hoped the Sox would of grabbed him in the offseason.

 

SB

[Chisoxfn]

Well, if you go on that level. Take the Maggs for Mulder rumor and if you can somehow convine Beane to add salary, then the Sox could have Mulder or Zito and Beltran for Maggs, Lee, and Rauch.

 

Gives you an ace pitcher and a star bat (left handed) although you lose two good bats and a prospect who doesn't have a future in our organization (he needs a change of scenery).

[EvilJester99]

Hopefully KW will make something happen to where the Sox will have another stud pitcher. They really need a #1. If they could somehow get Beltran, I bet they lose Mags.

[Chisoxfn]

Here's a more generic question. Overall, if you had your choice (both making 14 mill a year long term) who would you take: Maggs or Beltran?

 

I'd go with Beltran although stastically I think you could say Maggs has been better the past couple years. I just think Beltran is probably one of the most sound all around players in baseball, if not the most sound.

[israel4ever]

Sounds good, way to far fetched for the Sox though.

 

The more and more I watch though, espcailly sitting at the Cell last night, the more it doesnt bother me that Maggs isnt going to be here next season.

Whaaaaaa???

 

:headshake

[BrandoFan]

Beltran will stop running as soon as he hits 35 homers and gets his super-contract, which btw, given that his agent is Boras, will not be 14 Mill, but closer to 16-17 over 6-7 years.

 

Never pay for speed. A torn ALC -- and there goes basestealing and aggressive base-running as well as defensive range in CF. Sux could never pay the kind of money Beltran wants because only Bonds is worth it.

 

Beltran is hitting over his head right now. No way he is a 1000 OPS player if asked to bat clean-up.

 

And why on earth would M's want Carlos Lee's 15 Mill? He is a defensive downgrade compared to Winn, inferior baserunner and his 400 Slugging would be 370 in Safeco.

 

[Soxbadger]

I think right now the A's want to move Zito more than Mulder or Hudson, the A's recognize they need more hitting.

 

Zito and Lee make the same amount of money.

 

I just dont think the A's will want Maggs unless they get rid of Dye, where as Lee is priced so that they can use him now.

 

Also I think that the Mariners might still be willing to take on Valentin, so he could come into the mix if we were going after Garcia.

 

Right now most teams are probably just feeling eachother out, but with Zito struggling, the time might be right to nab him.

 

Lee does not make $15mil a year, he makes about what Garcia makes, so it would be salary for salary pretty much, and they have him next year too, where Garcia is a free agent.

 

 

SB

[EvilJester99]

I would take Beltran without a doubt. I think he is a better all around player than Mags. Not to take anything away from Mags.

[Chisoxfn]

Well, I like all the names mentioned: Zito, Garcia, and Beltran

 

Remember they are names being mentioned by us , but maybe management can find a way.

 

And Brando, speed isn't Beltrans only asset, but it definately helps. He's a stud defensive cf, steals a ton of bases (although your right, he probably won't steal as many when he gets a bigger contract, but he is still a tremendous base runner, although ultimately if he's tied long term I still think he plays hard.

 

He has a much improved eye and he's more then capable of hitting even better then this Brando, so I personally believe he is one of those 1000 OPS guys.

[Chisoxfn]

I dunno, if the Sox did a Maggs for Zito and Dye type deal I'd say the A's would do it just to get rid of Dye's contract and Dye has actually played solid this year.

 

Salarywise I don't know what it would do to the Sox, but it would be definately something worth considering. Especially if you could move Konerko or Lee for other quality players that make a little less to even out the payroll.

[EvilJester99]

The Sox certainly need to overhaul the offense a bit. They have too many guys always trying for the long ball. Plus too many base cloggers still. They need to get away from the "Softball player" types. ie Lee and Paulie.

[witesoxfan]

For some reason, Beltran scares the hell out of me. I think it's because of the fact that Boras is his agent. Whether that means we won't be able to resign him or that he may just shut it down after he gets his payday(ala CJ), or both.

 

Personally, I'd much rather see Delgado on the South Side then Beltran, but Beltran fits "Ozzie-ball" better then Delgado does. It'd be a tough-ass call either way.

 

 

Say, for instance, that we do make the Lee for Garcia deal. Who says that we then can't trade Konerko and Garcia and a good prospect or two for Delgado(Konerko and Garcia's only purposes are to take up some of the salary...the Jays want the prospects). At that point, we are $4 mill over our "cap", which is where Maggs comes in...we trade him to say San Francisco for Jason Schmidt and Marquis Grisson. Schmidt and Grissom together make roughly $10.5 mill...so we are back at where we need to be financially. The rotation is damn solid - Schmidt, Buehrle, Loaiza, Garland, and Scho - and the pen hasn't taken a hit(though we need some bullpen depth...with the pen we have now, we will most likely be smoked in the playoffs). The lineup has been changed quite a bit though...

 

Harris - CF

Uribe - 2B

Delgado - 1B

Thomas - DH

Valentin - SS

Grissom - RF

Reed - LF

Crede - 3B

Olivo - C

 

Now obviously that lineup isn't a set in stone thing, as several players could be switched around and it would still work. That's one of the benefits of that lineup is the versatility of it and how you can switch it up almost any way you like(while using a little common sense and reasoning) and it could work. Reed could bat 2nd or 5th as well as 6th, Delgado and Thomas could be switched around, Uribe could bat 5th, 6th, or 7th, Grissom could bat 2nd, 5th, or 7th, Valentin could bat 2nd, 6th, or 7th...I think you get the picture. Hell, Willie could bat in several different spots as well. Personally, I like that lineup a hell of a lot more then the one we have now, and I'm sure Ozzie would too(taking Konerko out automatically makes the lineup faster, but you get Grissom who, while advanced in age, can still steal a few bases, and Reed will probably steal more bases then Lee will, and you have both Harris and Uribe in the lineup). It's not nearly as dependant on the homer as our current lineup is, and it can play small ball if necessary.

 

And, assuming my math is correct, we are right around $65 mill with the payroll.

 

 

 

Either way, if we could get either Beltran or Delgado, I would be pretty damn happy.

[BrandoFan]

And Brando, speed isn't Beltrans only asset, but it definately helps.  He's a stud defensive cf, steals a ton of bases (although your right, he probably won't steal as many when he gets a bigger contract, but he is still a tremendous base runner, although ultimately if he's tied long term I still think he plays hard.

 

He has a much improved eye and he's more then capable of hitting even better then this Brando, so I personally believe he is one of those 1000 OPS guys.

Like so many 5-tool players before him, as soon as he gets a

7 year/125 Mill contract, he won't be stealing more than 15 bases a year, if that.

 

Then you got his 830 career OPS in front of Sweeney, Ibanez, Gonzo.....needless to say, he'll be batting in front of Konerko and Crede -- most likely with bases empty when Thomas is gone

 

Forget about Beltran, NYY is gonna overpay for him and he will pull a Jeter and choke in Noo Yawke.

 

That 16-17 Mill could be better spent on bargains like Reed (300K), Gload (300K) and a couple of ace pitchers in the Hudson mold.

[BrandoFan]

Especially if you could move Konerko or Lee for other quality players that make a little less to even out the payroll.

 

Konerko, pound for pound, er, dollar, is one of the worst position players in baseball.

 

Lee is not far behind this season.

 

Noone will take them.

[Soxbadger]

So by your logic, Zito is terrible because hes struggling?

 

Era of 6.00

 

No one would take Zito off Oaklands hands because hes having a bad start to this season, just like no one would trade for Lee?

 

Lee is very tradeable right now, eventhough hes struggling, I doubt many think that he will continue to play like this for the rest of his career. In the offseason he could of been dealt.

 

I think right now he could be dealt.

 

Konerko on the other hand would have to be a prospect at this point.

 

SB

[witesoxfan]

So by your logic, Zito is terrible because hes struggling?

 

Era of 6.00

 

No one would take Zito off Oaklands hands because hes having a bad start to this season, just like no one would trade for Lee?

 

Lee is very tradeable right now, eventhough hes struggling, I doubt many think that he will continue to play like this for the rest of his career. In the offseason he could of been dealt.

 

I think right now he could be dealt.

 

Konerko on the other hand would have to be a prospect at this point.

 

SB

Zito's gone 24-5 before and won a Cy Young.

 

Carlos Lee has hit 30 homers in a season ONCE, driven in 100 or more runs ONCE, has hit over .300 ONCE, and has NEVER had an OPS of .850. Those are not numbers a guy making $7.5 mill a year puts up. He should be putting up much better numbers.

 

Konerko has had ONE 30 homer season, ONE season where he hit above .300(though he had two where he hit .290), ONE season where he drove in 100 runs(though he's driven in 90 two other times) and has had an OPS of .850 ONCE in his career, and he was f***ing awful last year. Not exactly numbers a guy making about $7.5 mill should put up.

 

Comparing Zito to Lee and Konerko is like comparing apples to oranges.

[BrandoFan]

So by your logic, Zito is terrible because hes struggling?

 

Era of 6.00

 

No one would take Zito off Oaklands hands because hes having a bad start to this season, just like no one would trade for Lee?

 

Lee is very tradeable right now, eventhough hes struggling, I doubt many think that he will continue to play like this for the rest of his career. In the offseason he could of been dealt.

 

I think right now he could be dealt.

 

Konerko on the other hand would have to be a prospect at this point.

 

SB

Zito is Cy Young. Lee is mediocre-fielding, average baserunning LF whose career high OPS is, what, 840 and who hits into DP's.

 

Zito makes a few Mill. Lee makes 15 over next 2 years.

 

Zito is almost 26, Lee will be 28.

 

Of course Lee could be dealt, there will be teams intersted in his talent. It won't be for Freddy Garcia.

[Soxbadger]

Where did I say that Zito and Lee were as good as eachother?

 

I just said that a bad start does not make it so no team will trade for a player.

 

Lee was a player that teams wanted this offseason, the Mariners wanted him, the Dodgers wanted him, it was the White Sox who were unwilling to trade him.

 

Lee is only 27 years old, coming off his best season, and in every other season he hit over 20 home runs, drove in over 80.

 

While they are not the best statistics, I bet I can find you many other players who are paid much more to do much less.

 

Lee has a market, its foolish to think he doenst.

 

SB

[Soxbadger]

Lee: 2004 Salary: $6,500,000

 

Zito: 2004 Salary: $3,000,000

 

Garcia: 2004 Salary: $6,875,000

 

You keep saying this $15 mil, but that is over multiple years.

 

You dont say Zito makes $10mil, eventhough with next years contract included thats where his price is.

 

And I have yet to see where some one has suggested Lee for Garcia straight up would work.

 

I think its a starting point.

 

These are all young players, they all have upside, and they all have downside.

 

Zito may never return to form, Garcia could revert back to last year, Lee may never bat over .270 again.

 

But it doesnt mean teams wont trade for them, like you suggested.

 

It just means that Lee hurt his value, Zito hurt his value, and Garcia improved his.

 

In a month, that could all be completely reversed, hence the phrase, buy low, sell high.

 

SB

[BrandoFan]

But it doesnt mean teams wont trade for them, like you suggested.

 

In a month, that could all be completely reversed, hence the phrase, buy low, sell high.

It's 15 over 2. It's not 6.5 over 1. Teams will and have taken that into account, and that's why there hasn't been a single "good" offer for Lee that we know of this season.

 

You must have misunderstood. No GM wants him who could get the Sox something worthwhile/equal in talent in return. Of course Dodgers might do Lee for Weaver straight up. I don't want Weaver. Or similar trades.

 

Starting pitching is just a hellava lot more important/prized than a semi-one-dimensional LF, so teams will be more willing to give Zito benefit of the doubt as far as slow start.

 

And there is a difference between 25/26 for a soft-tossing pitcher like Zito and 27/28 for a freeswinger like Lee. The former hasn't entered his prime or is just getting ready to. The latter, if historical data is to be believed, is already as good as he is going to get as historical peak is 27-28/6 years in the league.

 

As far as buying low, selling high.....Nice in theory, not easy to execute in the stock market -- why would it be easier in baseball? I don't trust KW or Sox talent evaluators to pull major trades.

 

Lee will snap out of it if he starts driving the ball to RCF, but WHEN and by HOW MUCH is the question.