israel4ever Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 No, because that's why God gave us free will. We are supposed to choose the "right way". If we choose to turn away from God, we will pay the consequences. Here's where I will get the arguement that God's will is nothing but a "country club of so-called believers." There's an interesting way of breaking all this out, using one of the most famous bible versus, John 3:16. I won't go into extreme detail, but it goes something like this. God was there first. We are the world. He loves us, but we are separated from God by sin. Remember, God was there at the beginning. He gave us, the world, his son. He couldn't give until the other elements were in place. God's son is the bridge back to God - so that we may have everlasting life. That's the oversimplifaction, and there are elements starting with God and working our way through. Bottom line of all this is, again, we have to make the choice, we are not born into Christianity, we have to choose it. And that's where the whole free-will thing comes into play. God loves us all, but some of us don't love back, and that's our choice. (Waiting for cw to poke holes in all this... ) What about those of us who love G-d, but do not accept Jesus as His son, or as the Messiah? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Then you're going to hell! Seriously, I wish I knew. There has to be a reason why there are all these different beliefs. Sometimes, I have to question why Christianity is the "right way" compared to your beliefs, or Muslim, or Buddist, or Hindu, or whatever, you get the point. At some point, faith has to be your guide. The reason I believe what I do based on the context of the bible as a whole, is because the OT (your Torah?) foretold of the coming of a messiah, and it happened. All the accounts of historical notations lead to this, and to now what is our NT. The OT and NT taken together leads me to that conclusion, not one over the other. Lots of interesting perspectives of all this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 Then you're going to hell! Seriously, I wish I knew. There has to be a reason why there are all these different beliefs. Sometimes, I have to question why Christianity is the "right way" compared to your beliefs, or Muslim, or Buddist, or Hindu, or whatever, you get the point. At some point, faith has to be your guide. The reason I believe what I do based on the context of the bible as a whole, is because the OT (your Torah?) foretold of the coming of a messiah, and it happened. All the accounts of historical notations lead to this, and to now what is our NT. The OT and NT taken together leads me to that conclusion, not one over the other. Lots of interesting perspectives of all this... I believe that if you love G-d AND you treat others like you yourself would like to be treated, that is the best one could do for themselves. Worship anyway you want, just don't try to force your faith down other people's throats. One of my Supervisors is "born again" and he has been trying to convert me (and others) since I started working for the INS. He is very annoying and I have considered filing grievances against him on several occasions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 See, and that's where I differ. It's not up to me. I can only present what I know, and heck yea, it's limited. But how you choose or practice your faith, once I've told you my belief, it's up to you to choose what you practice or believe, or to uncover what you believe to be the truth. It's all there, and you have the choice to accept or not accept. That's where "religion" and "denominations" have it all wrong. I think "true" Christians know what their place is, and know their limitations. Those who force it have stepped over their bounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 I hate that stupid argument. The country was also built on slavery, a lack of rights for women, racism, attempted genocide(Indians), and quite a bit of debauchery. Any moron who thinks there was such a higher level of morality in the 1770's should get their heads out of 6th grade history books and wake the f*** up. And we have a pretty good track record in this country of tossing out the bad. Slavery, woman's rights, genocide, etc. while keeping the good. Perhaps the easy stuff is done, now we are into the tough stuff. Not bad progress for 200 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 True...but, I think that in the course of World History, TOO many people have died in the name of religion. Admittedly, I don't know enough about religion to say which religion is right or which is wrong; I don't think anyone knows that answer. What I do know is that if everyone would "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you", love G-d, and mind their own business, the world would be a better, more peaceful place in which to live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 I believe that if you love G-d AND you treat others like you yourself would like to be treated, that is the best one could do for themselves. I agree with your sentiment and how I think you meant it. I very nice man once offered the following insight to me, and I've never forgotten it. And I try and offer the same whenever some mis-informed ass hole like your self brings it up. I think we need to treat people how they want to be treated. Just because someone wants to be treated like crap, doesn't mean they have the right to treaty others like crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 True...but, I think that in the course of World History, TOO many people have died in the name of religion. Admittedly, I don't know enough about religion to say which religion is right or which is wrong; I don't think anyone knows that answer. What I do know is that if everyone would "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you", love G-d, and mind their own business, the world would be a better, more peaceful place in which to live. Amen, Amen, Amen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 what i believe is that there is no true RIGHT way. I think that God does love us all and that he loves our differences as well. I think God's probably a pretty good guy, and wont keep someone like Ghandi out of Heaven simply for being Hindu. As long as you have lived a good life according to the set of beliefs you hold to be true, you'll have a place with God. I dont think God is that petty, saying "you can come, because you're Christian, but you can't come, even if you're as good as the Chirstian, because you arent Christian." I just dont see that as being the way it is. Thats why i dont think people should get so up tight about gay marriage. It truly DOESNT affect you and it makes them happy, and whether or not you think it wrong really shouldnt MATTER. It's their choice. I think God will love them just the same, provided they're not axe murders etc. Maybe I'm just too optimistic for my own good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 True...but, I think that in the course of World History, TOO many people have died in the name of religion. Admittedly, I don't know enough about religion to say which religion is right or which is wrong; I don't think anyone knows that answer. What I do know is that if everyone would "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you", love G-d, and mind their own business, the world would be a better, more peaceful place in which to live. Agreed. All I'm saying (back to your original original question) is sometimes these issues come up, and that's why I care about gay marriage, but I don't condemn it because I'm not the one to judge. This was a long winded thread to say just that above... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 24, 2004 Author Share Posted June 24, 2004 When I mentioned it won't go away, I meant in the media. Doh! Two things I want to address. Some of you refuse to accept that the NT takes greater precedence than the OT. That's fine many people like to ignore reality so why should this be any different for religious reality? There are passages in the NT from Jesus himself that refute passages in the OT. It's a fact. Jesus takes greater precedence over any other figure in the Bible. That's also a fact. Passages relating to Jesus clearly define marriage between one woman & one man. Those of you who keep referring to St. Paul in the Bible as declaring marriage between non-believers, or marriage amongst polygamists is simply wrong. He never says that. He says it is best for believers to not marry non-believers & he clearly indicates that marriage is between one man & one woman. He does not encourage marriage in any sense because he does not believe it is helpful to serve two masters. Okay now that the ridiculous references to the Bible are put away, let's get down to the real heart of the matter. What is democracy? Simply put it's majority rules. It means the majority has the right to define what is & what is not acceptable in society. What is freedom? Simply put it's minority rules. It means the the minority right has the right to define for themselves what is & what is not acceptable in society. In the US we respect both democracy & freedom. Taken to the extreme on either side they can not co-exist. Therefore there co-existence is dependent on compromise. You may not like it, you may think it's unjustified .. but that's the reality of the relationship between the two. With respect to gay marriage democracy says no & freedom says yes. That's basically where the issue stands. In the US since we believe strongly in both a compromise is required. That compromise is civil unions. It doesn't mean that it's an end all & it doesn't mean the debate ends. It simply means at this time it's the best compromise on the issue. The debate continues, facts get collected over time & both sides continue to battle the issue. That's this history of this great nation & wish we could turn back to those times. Unfortunately we live in an America today where compromise is no longer the norm but the exception. Everything is so polar. Each side has to be 100% right all of the time. It's ridiculous & this thread is an example of that. When I published the facts I read in the paper that were recently published I focused on one very sad notice: only one state had moved towards civil union. Yet, as I looked at all the comments following that post not one bothered to make reference to it. Instead we had the polarized debate take off again. So in a micro sense this thread is a slice of America itself. Our culture was rooted in compromise wrapped in capitalism. Now it's become polarized. Neither side willing to bend because they have to be right all the time. The mere implication that someone might have a better idea no matter how weird it seems at the time is no longer accepted or desired. The nation could learn a thing or two by studying Vermont. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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