FlaSoxxJim Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Someone correctly assumed that this report would have been seen by the world as downright comical if it was released on schedule two weeks ago. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4997838/ Of course the report is released with some positive commentary on current events from the Administration's token moderate Colin Powell: “In their disappointment about America right now, I told them watch America, watch how we deal with this, watch how America will do the right thing,” Powell said. “Watch what a nation of values and character, a nation that believes in justice, does to right this kind of wrong.” He promised “multiple investigations” to get to the bottom of the scandal. It's amazing how they can marginalize this guy so effectively when he is trying hard to be the closest thing to a concience the Administration has (like when he reportedly "hit the roof" when the State Dept. got wind of the plans to skirt Geneva restrictions leading to the current abuse mess). But when they need him to put a good face on something that is starting to stink they trot him out like he's part of the happy, unified family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilJester99 Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Seems like another case of "Do as we say not as we do" kind of deal eh? The hypocrisy never ends lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Someone correctly assumed that this report would have been seen by the world as downright comical if it was released on schedule two weeks ago. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4997838/ Of course the report is released with some positive commentary on current events from the Administration's token moderate Colin Powell: It's amazing how they can marginalize this guy so effectively when he is trying hard to be the closest thing to a concience the Administration has (like when he reportedly "hit the roof" when the State Dept. got wind of the plans to skirt Geneva restrictions leading to the current abuse mess). But when they need him to put a good face on something that is starting to stink they trot him out like he's part of the happy, unified family. I think your average Iraqi could care less about what Powell says. I think they see the pictures and automatically despise America. I can't say I blame them for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Controlled Chaos Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 I think the average American can care less what the average Iraqi thinks. I see the pictures of Americans hanging from bridges and I DESPISE them. Can you blame me for that????????? I'll bet you do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilJester99 Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 I think the average American can care less what the average Iraqi thinks. I see the pictures of Americans hanging from bridges and I DESPISE them. Can you blame me for that????????? I'll bet you do... I don't blame you for it because I hate those bastards as well. Its only the self-righteous who will put people down for it. :puke :fyou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 I think the average American can care less what the average Iraqi thinks. I see the pictures of Americans hanging from bridges and I DESPISE them. Can you blame me for that????????? I'll bet you do... Interesting response. While the average american does not care what the average Iraqi thinks, I sure as hell hope that the Americans running our operations care what they think. The future of Iraq, and the fate of our soldiers in Iraq depends on them deciding that democracy can better their lives. I too despise them for hanging charred american bodies on bridges. No, I do not blame you for hating them. But in saying you despise Iraqi's for showing a lack of respect toward dead Americans, you have rationalized the Iraqi's response to seeing their people degraded. For the record, while I hate the Iraqi's who mutilated the charred carcases of our fallen brothers, we all know that they did it because they detest everything about us. You may not care what the Iraqi's think, but if we continue not caring about them, more Americans will be killed, more bodies will be mutilated, and Iraqi's will glorify their struggle against Americans. The only way to win over the Iraqi people and secure a safe future their, is to win them over with goodwill. The f***ing bastards who degraded the Iraqi prisoners have set us back in that process, and should be severely punished. I would not object to capitol punishment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted May 18, 2004 Author Share Posted May 18, 2004 I think the average American can care less what the average Iraqi thinks. I see the pictures of Americans hanging from bridges and I DESPISE them. Can you blame me for that????????? I'll bet you do... And do you also DESPISE us (the logical antonym to your wide-cast 'them') when you see pictures of a dead Iraqi detainee packed in ice with an IV hooked up to him now that it has come to light that he was killed during an interrogation gone wrong and now that it has been admitted by a soldier involved that the IV was put on the body after the fact to cover the asses of the US interrogators?? Can you blame me for wondering????????? I'll bet you do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted May 18, 2004 Author Share Posted May 18, 2004 For the record, while I hate the Iraqi's who mutilated the charred carcases of our fallen brothers, we all know that they did it because they detest everything about us. You may not care what the Iraqi's think, but if we continue not caring about them, more Americans will be killed, more bodies will be mutilated, and Iraqi's will glorify their struggle against Americans. For the record, you don't owe anyone an apology for considering that the world opinion of Americans might just matter after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Controlled Chaos Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Interesting response. While the average american does not care what the average Iraqi thinks, I sure as hell hope that the Americans running our operations care what they think. The future of Iraq, and the fate of our soldiers in Iraq depends on them deciding that democracy can better their lives. I too despise them for hanging charred american bodies on bridges. No, I do not blame you for hating them. But in saying you despise Iraqi's for showing a lack of respect toward dead Americans, you have rationalized the Iraqi's response to seeing their people degraded. For the record, while I hate the Iraqi's who mutilated the charred carcases of our fallen brothers, we all know that they did it because they detest everything about us. You may not care what the Iraqi's think, but if we continue not caring about them, more Americans will be killed, more bodies will be mutilated, and Iraqi's will glorify their struggle against Americans. The only way to win over the Iraqi people and secure a safe future their, is to win them over with goodwill. The f***ing bastards who degraded the Iraqi prisoners have set us back in that process, and should be severely punished. I would not object to capitol punishment. Interesting response to my response While the average American does not care what the average Iraqi thinks, I sure as hell hope that the Americans running our operations care what they think. The future of Iraq, and the fate of our soldiers in Iraq depends on them deciding that democracy can better their lives. I never said the Americans over there didn't care what they think. I believe the Americans over there want it to become a civilized place. I was simply expounding on your "I can't say I blame them" for despising us chatter. Cause I do blame them. We are sacrificing our lives, partially, for them to live a better one. Muslims are outraged by the humiliation of other muslims?? Are they outraged at any non muslim atrocious acts?? Were they outraged when planes flew into the towers or were they dancing in the streets, just as they were when Berg had his head chopped off. Outraged at Daniel Pearl? Outraged when Civilian contractors helping rebuild their city are murdered?? NOPE... No, I do not blame you for hating them. But in saying you despise Iraqi's for showing a lack of respect toward dead Americans, you have rationalized the Iraqi's response to seeing their people degraded. They show a lack of respect for LIVING Americans as well. Maybe in your twisted mind you think I rationalized the beheading of an American civilian, but there is no rationalization. You think beheading Berg was a response?? Gimmie a break You think roadside bombs are a response?? Suicide bombs? Mortar attacks? They are not responses...They are reactions by a people who had it their way for many years under Sadaams rule and now they don't want to change. They are bad people...and they don't want to let go their reign of terror. Most of this "torture" amounted to fraternity pranks. I personally don't give a f*** if Iraqi's think that being humiliated is worse than dying. That is their own f***ed up way of thinking. If making these people pile on top of each other naked and then telling them "I'm going to show these pictures to your family" gets them to disclose the location of some roadside bombs or a cache of weapons, or WMD's, which in turn saves lives...then I'm all for it. I am fully against any physical abuse that occured....and those perpetrators will be tried and punished, but if they can humilate a prisoner and get them to talk...then I say use it. I am not as compassionate for these people as I am for my own people. I do give the benefit of the doubt to our leaders and soldiers over the word of the consipracy theorists around the world. The f***ing bastards who degraded the Iraqi prisoners have set us back in that process, and should be severely punished. I would not object to capitol punishment. Capital Punishment for humiliation?????? Let's get some perspective here....You are so willing to persecute our own... Do you know that these prisoners weren't one time guards at that prison that commited torture that we couldn't even imagine? No you don't. Do you know that they were not soldiers that at one time commited mass murders? No you don't. Do you know that they are not attempted murderers of Americans? Nope!! but you want capital punishment for our soldiers. Jayson Williams, admittedly, shot a guy in cold blood and probably won't even serve 3 years...you want capital punihsment for American Soldiers. What a joke... The Olympic program in Iraq, run by Uday Hussein, was brutal. The punishment for losing? Iraqi athletes endured scalded feet, toenails ripped off, beatings and draggings on pavement followed by a dunking in sewage to ensure infection of wounds. Hidden outside the Iraqi national Olympic committee administrative headquarters, reporters found an obviously well-used iron maiden -- a sarcophagus-shaped device with long spikes on the inside door to impale its unwilling resident. How do we know that these prisoners didn't commit these acts. You are outraged at embarassment?? Humiliation?? That is what some of these people did to their Olympic hero's. If someone mudered your entire family and buried them somewhere. Would you be against humiliating that person to get them to tell you where they are? If your answer is NO then you are a VERY misguided person. You are aware that Iraq had bad people living there. You do know that many of those prisoners committed acts far far more atrocious then what we have done. The picture painted by the media is that everyone in Iraq is a nice person and we did these horrible things to these poor innocent people. Many of those people would put a bullet right through your skull just because you are non muslim....and then the others would dance around and cheer....chew on that for awhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Controlled Chaos Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 And do you also DESPISE us (the logical antonym to your wide-cast 'them') when you see pictures of a dead Iraqi detainee packed in ice with an IV hooked up to him now that it has come to light that he was killed during an interrogation gone wrong and now that it has been admitted by a soldier involved that the IV was put on the body after the fact to cover the asses of the US interrogators?? Can you blame me for wondering????????? I'll bet you do... you don't know what happened...but you speculate and spread your speculation. If the man died of a heart attack and the soldiers hooked up the IV and put him on a gurney so as to not incite the other prisoners....then I don't see anything wrong. If they murdered the prisoner...then I do see a problem....you just automatically assumed we murdered him. If you want to know what I despise, it's mostly your posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreye Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 I think the average American can care less what the average Iraqi thinks. I see the pictures of Americans hanging from bridges and I DESPISE them. Can you blame me for that????????? I'll bet you do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 If you want to know what I despise, it's mostly your posts. Probably because he makes you feel like a dumbass... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 LOL I just clicked on your profile. Those are some killer chops that you have there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 you don't know what happened...but you speculate and spread your speculation. If the man died of a heart attack and the soldiers hooked up the IV and put him on a gurney so as to not incite the other prisoners....then I don't see anything wrong. If they murdered the prisoner...then I do see a problem....you just automatically assumed we murdered him. If you want to know what I despise, it's mostly your posts. Perhaps you missed this part of his post (put in bold for emphasis) And do you also DESPISE us (the logical antonym to your wide-cast 'them') when you see pictures of a dead Iraqi detainee packed in ice with an IV hooked up to him now that it has come to light that he was killed during an interrogation gone wrong and now that it has been admitted by a soldier involved that the IV was put on the body after the fact to cover the asses of the US interrogators?? If they are admitting it then I don't really see how he is speculating. Reading comprehension: it's a skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted May 18, 2004 Author Share Posted May 18, 2004 you don't know what happened...but you speculate and spread your speculation. If the man died of a heart attack and the soldiers hooked up the IV and put him on a gurney so as to not incite the other prisoners....then I don't see anything wrong. If they murdered the prisoner...then I do see a problem....you just automatically assumed we murdered him. If you want to know what I despise, it's mostly your posts. And it HAS been admitted... You are putting words into my mouth that are not there. I did not even go so far as to speculate that the now infamous Iraqi on ice was murdered, and I was particularly careful to refer to it as an interrogation gone wrong. Are my words somehow more damning or loaded than Sgt. Frederick's own, that the prisoner was "stressed" by interrogators until he died? He was killed by the interrogation process. Period. S/SGT. VAN FREDERICK II 372d MILITARY POLICE COMPANY The senior enlisted man among those charged, Frederick, 37, is a prison guard in Virginia, as is his wife, Martha. He wrote his family about a prisoner "stressed" by interrogators until he died; the body, he said, was packed in ice and given a fake IV to simulate a medical emergency. When he brought up his concerns about conditions at Abu Ghraib to a senior officer, the response, he said, was not to worry about it: military intelligence was pleased with the results. The brief account above (from msnbc) also indicates that the body was packed in ice and then the IV hooked on, apparently well away from the eyes of the other detainees and apparently solely for the purposes of concocting a cover story that the detainee expired despite their best efforts. You are in a dwindling minority of people content to believe the official party line that "most of this "torture" amounted to fraternity pranks." 84% of the 38K+ people who have voted in the (nonscientific) msnbc poll think this was ordered up at a higher level than those whacky enlisted folks just blowing off steam. SPC Sabrina Harman (one of the accused) has said that their marching orders were "to make it hell so they would talk," even though Abu Ghraib is not Afghan no-man's land and the abused detainees were (by the US official admonition) from a prison block of low-value information sources – not the high-value Taliban and El Quaida targets that the initial SAP was developed to deal with. I'm appalled (if not surprised) that so many are so willing to let these soldiers alone take the fall (NOT SUGGESTING THEY ARE GUILTLESS BY ANY STRETCH, MIND YOU) for this, and as the courtmartial hearings scheduled for tomorrow have now all been moved up to today this appears to be the strategy. Hang this handful out for slaughter quickly and try to bury the story before yet more comes to light implicating those up the chain. It is about maintaining that all-important plausible deniability. Telling the underlings to "make it hell" and to "get creative" in the interrogation practices, while not specifically telling them how to go about it accomplishes exactly that. De Rita's Pentagon statement that no higher authority told the grunts to do what is depicted in the images may well be technically true because by design it is left to the grunts to "sweat the details." Former and current Pentagon, CIA, military contractors, etc., are all looking at some of the interrogation tactics used and saying yeah that's the way you do it, and no these reservists from Virginia didn't figure it all out on their own. The implication is that at least some of those on-site in the command chain not only were turning a blind eye to what was happening, but they were giving lessons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Controlled Chaos Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Perhaps you missed this part of his post (put in bold for emphasis) And do you also DESPISE us (the logical antonym to your wide-cast 'them') when you see pictures of a dead Iraqi detainee packed in ice with an IV hooked up to him now that it has come to light that he was killed during an interrogation gone wrong and now that it has been admitted by a soldier involved that the IV was put on the body after the fact to cover the asses of the US interrogators?? If they are admitting it then I don't really see how he is speculating. Reading comprehension: it's a skill. Thanks for including my post in there, cause that has just as much factual weight as does FlaSoxxJim's. So yes, I guess I can read and comprehend...I just don't see American's as the bad guys all the time, so I have a different perspective. he says..."Killed during an interrogation gone wrong" I say..."suffered a heart attack during questioning" (which has been reported, but the word "killed" let's the reader wonder) he says "the IV was put on the body after the fact to cover the asses of the US interrogators" I say "hooked up the IV and put him on a gurney so as to not incite the other prisoners" Do we know who is right?? Nope. It's just how it is written and unfortunately the Leftist media prefers the prior version 10 out of 10 times. There's more shock in blaming ourselves the big bad US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Seems like another case of "Do as we say not as we do" kind of deal eh? The hypocrisy never ends lol. When you develop a system of government that endoctrinates 300 million souls in America to uphold the standards we define let me know. Until then just accept the fact that our's is the most humane system on the planet to govern 300 million souls & we are doing the best we can. Or *************************** *** SMACK WARNING !!! ****** You can annoint me the President & I'll weed out the degenerates & endoctrinate them the right way! *** SMACK WARNING !!! ****** *************************** PS> Smack means not to take it literally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Wow. :headshake "I can't say I blame them" for despising us chatter. Cause I do blame them. We are sacrificing our lives, partially, for them to live a better one. Muslims are outraged by the humiliation of other muslims?? Are they outraged at any non muslim atrocious acts?? Were they outraged when planes flew into the towers or were they dancing in the streets, just as they were when Berg had his head chopped off. Outraged at Daniel Pearl? Outraged when Civilian contractors helping rebuild their city are murdered?? NOPE... Were you outraged when we caugh Hussein? Were you outraged when the picture of Qusay were released? Were you outraged when we marched victoriously through Iraq? Of course not, the good guys were winning. For that reason they were not outraged on 9/11. Your average 12 year old Iraqi boy views his islamic extremist neighbor as the good guy, not the white man from the other side of the world. You can be angry at the tactics used by the islamic terrorists, and you can be angry when they attack our civilian buildings, but it is stupid to hate those Iraqis who are rooting for the insurgents. If we went on a massive bombing campaign tomorrow and totally leveled cities but killed all the insurgents, you would be smiling, because we will have won the war. So don't blame them for cheering about their victories. They show a lack of respect for LIVING Americans as well. Maybe in your twisted mind you think I rationalized the beheading of an American civilian, but there is no rationalization. You think beheading Berg was a response?? Gimmie a break You think roadside bombs are a response?? Suicide bombs? Mortar attacks? They are not responses...They are reactions by a people who had it their way for many years under Sadaams rule and now they don't want to change. They are bad people...and they don't want to let go their reign of terror. You misunderstood my statement. I meant that you rationalized the anger demonstrated by Iraqis when they saw their prisoners molested. Its as simple as this: You hate Iraqi's for what they do to Americans...Iraqi's hate you for what we do to Iraqis. Let me clear something up, that is a general statement. I realize not all Iraqi's hate Americans. Most of this "torture" amounted to fraternity pranks. I personally don't give a f*** if Iraqi's think that being humiliated is worse than dying. That is their own f***ed up way of thinking. If making these people pile on top of each other naked and then telling them "I'm going to show these pictures to your family" gets them to disclose the location of some roadside bombs or a cache of weapons, or WMD's, which in turn saves lives...then I'm all for it. I am fully against any physical abuse that occured....and those perpetrators will be tried and punished, but if they can humilate a prisoner and get them to talk...then I say use it. I am not as compassionate for these people as I am for my own people. I do give the benefit of the doubt to our leaders and soldiers over the word of the consipracy theorists around the world. Pile them on top of eachother naked. Carry them around on leashes while they are naked. Humiliate them, make them less than human...but please don't physically abuse them There are rules of conduct. No american wants to see American prisoners mistreated. We should not mistreat Iraqis. And people say that if Iraqis don't follow rules of conduct, then we shouldn't. But we are the f***ing United States of America, we should take the higher moral ground and do what is right. That is how you make friends in the world. I have also heard people say we don't need friends in the world. But there are families of the 2,000+ people who died in 9/11 who wish the US had made a few more friends in the middle east. Capital Punishment for humiliation?????? Let's get some perspective here....You are so willing to persecute our own... Do you know that these prisoners weren't one time guards at that prison that commited torture that we couldn't even imagine? No you don't. Do you know that they were not soldiers that at one time commited mass murders? No you don't. Do you know that they are not attempted murderers of Americans? Nope!! but you want capital punishment for our soldiers. Jayson Williams, admittedly, shot a guy in cold blood and probably won't even serve 3 years...you want capital punihsment for American Soldiers. What a joke... The Olympic program in Iraq, run by Uday Hussein, was brutal. The punishment for losing? Iraqi athletes endured scalded feet, toenails ripped off, beatings and draggings on pavement followed by a dunking in sewage to ensure infection of wounds. Hidden outside the Iraqi national Olympic committee administrative headquarters, reporters found an obviously well-used iron maiden -- a sarcophagus-shaped device with long spikes on the inside door to impale its unwilling resident. How do we know that these prisoners didn't commit these acts. You are outraged at embarassment?? Humiliation?? That is what some of these people did to their Olympic hero's. I do realize my capitol punishment statement was too harsh, but I hope these gaurds spend the next 20 years of their life behind bars. We want our prisoners to be safe. By harming Iraqi prisoners, americans who are captured by Iraqis are at a greater risk. You have no idea what my opinion on the Jayson William's trial is, so don't even bring that up. And by assuming these prisoners were murderers and committers of atrocities, you are bypassing a major function of this country, which is fair trial. I don't believe that War prisoners are put on trial, unless they are officers or involved in some sort of war crimes. None of those Iraqi prisoners have been put on trial thus far. Even if they had been found guilty of heinous acts, that does not mean we can strike them down with punishment that is more cruel and more unusual than a lethal injection. If someone mudered your entire family and buried them somewhere. Would you be against humiliating that person to get them to tell you where they are? If your answer is NO then you are a VERY misguided person. You are aware that Iraq had bad people living there. You do know that many of those prisoners committed acts far far more atrocious then what we have done. The picture painted by the media is that everyone in Iraq is a nice person and we did these horrible things to these poor innocent people. Many of those people would put a bullet right through your skull just because you are non muslim....and then the others would dance around and cheer....chew on that for awhile. Ok I did some chewing... If someone did that to my family, I would hate them, I would want them to die, but better judgement would stop me from dragging them around naked. Regardless of what they did, they are still human, and are therefore entitled to certain rights. these people did not chose to hate america, they have been taught to hate since their birth. They will never be turned away from that evil, but I can not hate someone who never had a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted May 18, 2004 Author Share Posted May 18, 2004 I have also heard people say we don't need friends in the world. But there are families of the 2,000+ people who died in 9/11 who wish the US had made a few more friends in the middle east. There is a quiet profoundness to that simple statement. I don't agree that the 'they are taught to hate us since the day they are born and there's nothing we can do' sentiment is wholly true, nor do I equate an indoctrination into hate with evil straight-up, but I understand and appreciate where you are coming from. You are right though, it's an uphill battle for the new generation to give anyone in the world a fair shake if the generation raising them is teaching them hatred. That is why social change happens as slowly as it does here, and just as we now understand the need to break that intergenerational transmission of generic hate for a race, creed, religion, etc. on the homefront, we need to realize the importance of doing the same thing in the wider world. The fist step there of course is to walk it like we talk it and be the compassionate, fair, and democratic nation we aspire to be. It's harder for others to hate us as a nation outright if you don't give them a reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.