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Rumsfeld admits..


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US Plans to Use Illegal Weapons

 

by Severin Carrell

The Independent (UK)

Sunday, February 16, 2003

 

While American forces invading Iraq face the threat of chemical attack,

they could themselves be using biochemical agents which are banned under

international law.

 

The US Secretary of Defence, Donald Rumsfeld, revealed earlier this

month that American forces are planning to use "non-lethal" biochemical

weapons such as anti-riot gases and crowd control agents if they invade

Iraq. Mr Rumsfeld and General Richard Myers, chairman of the US Joint

Chiefs of Staff, told the House of Representatives Armed Services

Committee they were preparing to ask President George Bush for

permission to use these weapons, known in military circles as

"calmatives", on Iraqi civilians, in cave systems or to take prisoners.

 

But two of Britain's leading authorities on chemical weapons, Professor

Alistair Hay and Professor Julian Perry-Robinson, who are collaborating

on an expert guide for the World Health Organisation, said such weapons

are illegal under the 1992 Chemical Weapons Convention and the 1928

Geneva Protocol, which ban the use of chemical agents against people in

wartime.

 

"It would be absolutely outrageous if they did this," said Prof Hay, an

epidemiologist at Leeds University. "Surely this war against Iraq is to

stop the use of those weapons, not about also using them."

 

The dangers of such weapons were exposed, the experts said, when Russian

special forces used an opiate-based crowd control gas, with devastating

consequences, on Chechen rebels holding theatregoers hostage in Moscow

in October. Both men said Mr Rumsfeld's comments also threatened to put

the Pentagon on a collision course with Britain.

 

Ministry of Defence experts have repeatedly warned their US counterparts

that their proposed use of these weapons in warfare is illegal.

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You are the most anti-US American Ive ever met. Drop dead.  :fyou

I don't have to pledge allegiance to the war to be American.

 

And by wanting to censor me, you inherently violate the freedoms of the country with you so greatly adore.

 

Don't you find it the least bit hypocritical to go disarm people of illegal weapons and in the process using illegal weapons?

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OK, Im sorry for the rudeness, but how can an American be so anti-American? If Bush was a democrat, would you support him? Or do you despise him just because hes republican? Or are you an anarchist who despises all presidents?

 

As for the article, I dont believe for a second that its true. We will play fair, Iraq will not...

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Oh no anti-riot gases and crowd control agents!  GOD FORBID!!!  Please don't use those one Iraqi citizens as we try to take prisoners and keep them from killing our soldiers.

Saddam could be destroying every Western city with sarin gas, small pox and every other deadly nerve toxin, and apu would still be whining about how we want to be using nonlethal chemical weapons just to control them. Sideshowapu is the biggest anti American on this board. Everything about him reeks of hatred of this great nation. His avatar, the last part of his signature. Just ignore him, his articles are anti-American lies and his political garbage in senseless and idiotic.

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Oh no anti-riot gases and crowd control agents!  GOD FORBID!!!  Please don't use those one Iraqi citizens as we try to take prisoners and keep them from killing our soldiers.

The gas is the same type that was used during the Russian theater fiasco and we all saw that the gas killed some of the hostages. Not injured them, KILLED them.

 

The gas has been banned by international law, so if the Bush regime uses them, they are war criminals as well. And OldRoman, there were only a few Democrats/Republicans that I actually like.

 

Alan Keyes - He may be a right wing nutball, but he moshed on "The Awful Truth"

 

Dennis Kucinich - Congressman out of Ohio who is running for president. Anti-war, progressive and vegan.

 

Paul Wellstone - Well, he's dead but he was one of my favorite Congressmen because he was a real advocate for labor.

 

And believe the article, OldRoman. It's from a major British newspaper....and they, unlike here, actually report news. (Instead of the "Meg Ryan is getting divorced" story that takes up half the air time)

 

I hate Bush for many reasons

1) He didn't win the election

2) He has the IQ of a 7 year old

3) He actively wants to be a war criminal disregarding international law and the Constitution

 

If the President was a Democrat, you damn well believe that I would be out doing my best effort to stop Tipper "Music/TV Nazi" Gore and Pat "Holy f*** This Guy is So Whacked Out" Lieberman. Trust me, Lieberman scares me more than the entire Bush regime and I hate Lieberman more than the entire Bush regime.

 

And if you must know, I kind of like the type of government they have in Sweden: democratic socialism.

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Saddam could be destroying every Western city with sarin gas, small pox and every other deadly nerve toxin, and apu would still be whining about how we want to be using nonlethal chemical weapons just to control them. Sideshowapu is the biggest anti American on this board. Everything about him reeks of hatred of this great nation. His avatar, the last part of his signature. Just ignore him, his articles are anti-American lies and his political garbage in senseless and idiotic.

OldRoman, the gas has been proven that it can kill people. Even our biggest ally, the UK, said that they wouldn't support the Bush regime's usage of the gas. Doesn't that raise some flags?

 

And as for the anti-American comments, you obviously haven't read the Constitution. It allows for me to freely speak my mind and criticize my government. I love the rights I have in this nation. I do not like our foreign policy, our "President's" actions, CIA & US military governmental overthrows our nation has undertaken, et al.

 

How are my articles anti-American lies when they are written by a major newspaper from one of our greatest allies? Please explain.

 

Senseless and idiotic. Yes, that is some of the words that I would use to describe a war in Iraq. My avatar makes perfect sense because our "President" didn't really win the election.

 

And, OldRoman, your want of (and lust for) US dominance reflects that of the current administration. But those that work for peace will always trump those who merely hunger for sovereignty.

 

And OldRoman, next time, if you wanna address me, try not using ad hominem attacks and instead show me where my argument is flawed using facts and proof because that would be a lot better than your unverified ramblings.

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Saddam could be destroying every Western city with sarin gas, small pox and every other deadly nerve toxin, and apu would still be whining about how we want to be using nonlethal chemical weapons just to control them. Sideshowapu is the biggest anti American on this board. Everything about him reeks of hatred of this great nation. His avatar, the last part of his signature. Just ignore him, his articles are anti-American lies and his political garbage in senseless and idiotic.

OldRoman, the gas has been proven that it can kill people. Even our biggest ally, the UK, said that they wouldn't support the Bush regime's usage of the gas. Doesn't that raise some flags?

 

And as for the anti-American comments, you obviously haven't read the Constitution. It allows for me to freely speak my mind and criticize my government. I love the rights I have in this nation. I do not like our foreign policy, our "President's" actions, CIA & US military governmental overthrows our nation has undertaken, et al.

 

How are my articles anti-American lies when they are written by a major newspaper from one of our greatest allies? Please explain.

 

Senseless and idiotic. Yes, that is some of the words that I would use to describe a war in Iraq. My avatar makes perfect sense because our "President" didn't really win the election.

 

And, OldRoman, your want of (and lust for) US dominance reflects that of the current administration. But those that work for peace will always trump those who merely hunger for sovereignty.

 

And OldRoman, next time, if you wanna address me, try not using ad hominem attacks and instead show me where my argument is flawed using facts and proof because that would be a lot better than your unverified ramblings.

Thousands of innocent Americans died on Sept 11. Saddam supports the cowardly perpetrators. He is the representation of the devil in man. He needs to be eliminated.

 

And I dont care what your article says, none of it will ever happen.

 

Now answer a question of mine. Why are you so anti-American?

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Guest hotsoxchick1

at this point in time i really dont care anymore what they do or use.. i just want it all over with and our people back home where they belong.........im sick of this s*** already...............blow up the sand box already and get it over with..........

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Thousands of innocent Americans died on Sept 11. Saddam supports the cowardly perpetrators. He is the representation of the devil in man. He needs to be eliminated.

 

And I dont care what your article says, none of it will ever happen.

 

Now answer a question of mine. Why are you so anti-American?

Thousands of Americans died on 9/11. However, the CIA, Interpol, and world intelligence cannot find a link between terrorists and Saddam. If anything, the recent tape shows bin Laden calling Saddam an "infidel".

 

OldRoman, once you see some of the horrible things that this nation has done. Ask your history teacher about COINTELPRO or our overthrow of Salvador Allende in Chile after which we installed Augusto Pinochet as dictator and he summarily slaughtered thousands of Chileans. (preferred method of killing was shooting them and burying them beneath the national stadium) Or in the 1980s, during the Iran/Iraq war, Rumsfeld and the U.S. sold weapons to both Iraq and Iran. Or my favorite, the CIA during the 1980s bringing cocaine into the US to help finance the Contra war in Nicaragua.

 

I love this country which makes it all the more painful to see the horrible atrocities that we have committed. I see so much blood on our hands and those responsible won't be given the punishment they deserve (Just recently, Henry Kissinger was on TV talking about human rights. What a savage hypocricy that was)

When you see the quagmire of human rights abuses we have committed in the names of "anti-communism", you'd be sick to your stomach. And it is not leftist radicals spouting these facts. It is former members of the CIA, the State Department, and Emeritus History professors amongst many others.

 

I don't have to pledge allegiance to blind nationalism in order to be a patriot. Dissent is democratic. Peace is patriotic. That is what an American is.

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thats the same stuff we use on our own people to control crowds that are about to riot...lol..im sure the iraqi people will get over it once saddam is removed from power...youll see ameican flags being waved in the streets

And you'll see thousands of civilians and U.S. military being slaughtered which will create a whole new generation of terrorists ripe for Osama's war against the West.

 

::hums:: It's beginning to look a lot like 1984. Endless, endless war.

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thats the same stuff we use on our own people to control crowds that are about to riot...lol..im sure the iraqi people will get over it once saddam is removed from power...youll see ameican flags being waved in the streets

And you'll see thousands of civilians and U.S. military being slaughtered which will create a whole new generation of terrorists ripe for Osama's war against the West.

 

::hums:: It's beginning to look a lot like 1984. Endless, endless war.

thousands of US militry being slaughtered???....oh come on...this is the same friggen army that was surrending to CNN a little over 10 years ago..under the same dictator..you think over the past 10 years these same soldiers have now fallen in love with saddam and will fight to the death for him???

 

and do you think we are just gonna walk into iraq with foot soldiers w/o bombing the bejesus out of them first???...why do you think we are droping millions of leaflets right now thats telling the iraqi people to stay away from any military installations or any civilian buildings housing military hardware???..by the time we are done bombing them you and i alone could walk into iraq and take over...give our military a little more credit will ya..

 

this war is a slam dunk..we already have all the logistics covered by having troops in saudi..this is something we didnt have the first time and had to set up....so we already ahead of the game..also iraq is a desert..perfect terrian for us to fight a war from the air...they cant hide like in a jungle...easy to cut off supplies to the iraqi front line troops...this was is gonna be so easy

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As for the article, I dont believe for a second that its true. We will play fair, Iraq will not...

Sorry Psycho, there is no purity anywhere. And our nation has a mixed and sometimes sordid history as do other countries.

 

And nothing apu is saying is antiAmerican. He is freely discussing the issues of the day from a side that some people do not want to acknowledge. I think he is right 99% of the time and my son is a Marine and I consider myself a very well informed person because I deeply care about these issues. (Ask for about cars and I know s***...)

 

That people have other opinions is fine, as long as they are informed and from a good conscience. But I for one resent the antiAmerican tag slapped on someone who dissents from the s*** the media pushes and government propaganda. Apu is thinking for himself. So, for example, is baggio, while they (and I and Baggio) are polar opposites on this. And I can respect everyone then and affirm both as proAmerican in the best sense of the term.

 

SideshowApu, God bless you and :bringit

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thousands of US militry being slaughtered???....oh come on...this is the same friggen army that was surrending to CNN  a little over 10 years ago..under the same dictator..you think over the past 10 years these same soldiers have now fallen in love with saddam and will fight to the death for him???

 

and do you think we are just gonna walk into iraq with foot soldiers w/o bombing the bejesus out of them first???...why do you think we are droping millions of leaflets right now thats telling the iraqi people to stay away from any military installations or any civilian buildings housing military hardware???..by the time we are done bombing them you and i alone could walk into iraq and take over...give our military a little more credit will ya..

 

this war is a slam dunk..we already have all the logistics covered by having troops in saudi..this is something we didnt have the first time and had to set up....so we already ahead of the game..also iraq is a desert..perfect terrian for us to fight a war from the air...they cant hide like in a jungle...easy to cut off supplies to the iraqi front line troops...this was is gonna be so easy

Assuming we are going in there to disarm Saddam & if he has these weapons, he'll use them. I spoke to Doug Rockne before and he said that at the current state the chemical and biological protection suits are sub-par and that a chemical attack could decimate troops.

 

Also, the US government has ordered 77,000 body bags (3 times more than Gulf War I). I think that IF Saddam has these weapons that we are forcibly going to remove, what is going to stop him from using them on US troops?

 

And Baggs, the US war plans call for urban warfare. How are the citizens supposed to stay away from carpet bombing in their own cities?

 

On a lighter note...

CWSox, much appreciated. Freedom to express ideas is what this nation is based on. I guess expressing one's ideas is Anti-American. Haha.

 

:bringit OldRoman

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Assuming we are going in there to disarm Saddam & if he has these weapons, he'll use them.

 

 

 

 

 

that statement to me represents the quandry the democrats / liberals are in trying to oppose this war...if you are correct and saddam has the weapons hidden from inspectors then he is in violation of every UN mandate against him...and by the UN's own rules if iraq doesnt comply it will lead to him being forcefully removed....so the first bio/chem weapon launched by iraq vindicates bush and proves that if we waited any longer to take him out things would only be worse as he would have had more time develop more weapons and better ways to deliver them...first bio /chem weapon lauched brings every UN nation on board..

 

now if iraq doesnt have these weapons and they are as disorganized as they were the last time then the war ends in a week with the removal of saddam and nobody cares that iraq didnt have any weapons of mass destruction because the evil dictator that killed hundreds of thousands of his own people is now either dead or out of power...

 

either way..its a win/win for the US..

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As for the article, I dont believe for a second that its true. We will play fair, Iraq will not...

Sorry Psycho, there is no purity anywhere. And our nation has a mixed and sometimes sordid history as do other countries.

 

And nothing apu is saying is antiAmerican. He is freely discussing the issues of the day from a side that some people do not want to acknowledge. I think he is right 99% of the time and my son is a Marine and I consider myself a very well informed person because I deeply care about these issues. (Ask for about cars and I know s***...)

 

That people have other opinions is fine, as long as they are informed and from a good conscience. But I for one resent the antiAmerican tag slapped on someone who dissents from the s*** the media pushes and government propaganda. Apu is thinking for himself. So, for example, is baggio, while they (and I and Baggio) are polar opposites on this. And I can respect everyone then and affirm both as proAmerican in the best sense of the term.

 

SideshowApu, God bless you and :bringit

How can you say apus not anti-American? He detests democracy, capitalism, the Bush regime. Look at his sig. Can you say thats not anti-US? Everything about this guy is hateful. No mention hes one of the most classless posters on the board...

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OldRoman, democracy actually asks people to get involved with their government. You might want to learn that there is a thing here called "FREEDOM OF SPEECH" so I can say near damn anything I like.

 

I've said it once and I'll say it again....I don't need to pledge allegiance to a war to be patriotic.

 

Pfft. Capitalism. We've seen where that got us. 41 million without heath care, high unemployment, unions being crushed, NAFTA moving jobs to Mexico for bigger corporate profits while the people who buy the goods in the US are unemployed, firings of workers while corporations are making record profits. Yeah capitalism is great.

 

But it is pretty funny that you can't show me where my statements are WRONG. Everything I say about the United States is fact. Cold, hard fact. Like it or lump it, that's the United States.

 

And OldRoman, tell me how I am hateful when I am part of the pacifist peace movement. I dislike warmongering a lot. I dislike it that my friend is in naval intelligence and he is over in country with his fiance because George W. Chickenhawk wants to be John Wayne instead of using diplomacy. I swear, if either of them come home in a box, I am going to worker harder than before on impeaching this son of a b****.

 

Come on, OldRoman. Crack out the facts. Show me that I'm wrong when I say that the US lied about the Gulf of Tonkin incident to get us into Vietnam. Show me that I am wrong that the CIA sold cocaine to finance the Contra war. Show me I am wrong when our own Secretary of Defense admits to the want to use illegal weapons. Prove to me, using facts, that my statements about the U.S. are wrong instead of just calling me anti-American.

 

And OldRoman, tossing around epithets like that, you really don't do your case any favors. Show me the facts that prove my assertions about the government wrong. :bringit

 

Cuz remember everybody, Pledge Allegiance to the War! You're either with the President or you're Anti-American! It's just that simple! :lol:

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OldRoman, democracy actually asks people to get involved with their government.  You might want to learn that there is a thing here called "FREEDOM OF SPEECH" so I can say near damn anything I like.

 

I've said it once and I'll say it again....I don't need to pledge allegiance to a war to be patriotic.

 

Pfft.  Capitalism.  We've seen where that got us.  41 million without heath care, high unemployment, unions being crushed, NAFTA moving jobs to Mexico for bigger corporate profits while the people who buy the goods in the US are unemployed, firings of workers while corporations are making record profits.  Yeah capitalism is great.

 

But it is pretty funny that you can't show me where my statements are WRONG.  Everything I say about the United States is fact.  Cold, hard fact.  Like it or lump it, that's the United States.

 

And OldRoman, tell me how I am hateful when I am part of the pacifist peace movement.  I dislike warmongering a lot.  I dislike it that my friend is in naval intelligence and he is over in country with his fiance because George W. Chickenhawk wants to be John Wayne instead of using diplomacy.  I swear, if either of them come home in a box, I am going to worker harder than before on impeaching this son of a b****.

 

Come on, OldRoman.  Crack out the facts.  Show me that I'm wrong when I say that the US lied about the Gulf of Tonkin incident to get us into Vietnam.  Show me that I am wrong that the CIA sold cocaine to finance the Contra war.  Show me I am wrong when our own Secretary of Defense admits to the want to use illegal weapons.  Prove to me, using facts, that my statements about the U.S. are wrong instead of just calling me anti-American.

 

And OldRoman, tossing around epithets like that, you really don't do your case any favors.  Show me the facts that prove my assertions about the government wrong. :bringit

 

Cuz remember everybody, Pledge Allegiance to the War!  You're either with the President or you're Anti-American!  It's just that simple!  :lol:

so if you had the choice , since you dont like capitalism , what country would you pattern the US after??

 

also..arnt you gonna rebute my previous post??.im curious about your reply to my quandry question facing liberals

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that statement to me represents the quandry the democrats  / liberals are in trying to oppose this war...if you are correct and saddam has the weapons hidden from inspectors then he is in violation of every UN mandate against him...and by the UN's own rules if iraq doesnt comply it will lead to him being forcefully removed....so the first bio/chem weapon launched by iraq vindicates bush and proves that if we waited any longer to take him out things would only be worse as he would have had more time develop more weapons and better ways to deliver them...first bio /chem weapon lauched brings every UN nation on board..

 

now if iraq doesnt have these weapons and they are as disorganized as they were the last time  then the war ends in a week with the removal of saddam and nobody cares that iraq didnt have any weapons of mass destruction because the evil dictator that killed hundreds of thousands of his own people is now either dead or out of power...

 

either way..its a win/win for the US..

If the US invades, with the current plans for urban warfare, we are also in breach of UN Resolutions. The U.S. has also broken UN resolutions. In fact, the UN condemned our embargo on Cuba with a vote of 117-3. (Israel, US, and Uzbekistan or the Faulkland Islands, I can't remember the 3rd one)

The U.S. has also allowed Israel to brake UN Resolution 242 link that asks for Israel to work towards peace etc. After it was passed, the US has vetoed 43 times to keep this from being enforced against Israel.

 

If the U.S. invades Iraq with a unilateral attack, we break the UN Resolution of 1990. How can we b**** that a person is breaking UN Resolutions when our country is going to break one as well?

 

Saddam is evil, yes. But there have been more bloodthirsty men that him in the past. Pinochet? Noriega? Oh wait, we were helping those guys. What about Chairman Mao? We never really tried that hard to overthrow him. How about Roberto D'Aubuisson? Wait, we trained him too. Pol Pot? No no, he killed millions of Cambodians but that was no matter to us. Hugo Banzer Suarez (Bolivia)? No, we trained and put him in power too.

 

The U.S. has been in bed with some of the worst human rights abusers and has allowed the most bloodthirsty people to ravage their nations in the past. Why is this Iraq situation any different?

 

Can anybody say "Wag the dog?" War presidents usually get re-elected. If there is no war, he might have to talk about the economy or the failing "War on Terror" or the fact that Ashcroft and Co. are stealing our civil liberties via the USA Patriot Act.

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so if you had the choice , since you dont like capitalism , what country would you pattern the US  after??

 

also..arnt you gonna rebute my previous post??.im curious about your reply to my quandry question facing liberals

I just got back on the boards a few minutes ago, I've been reviewing for my Balkan history class all evening.

 

A democratically socialist state such as Sweden would be fantastic. National health care and the government takes care of people pretty damn well.

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so if you had the choice , since you dont like capitalism , what country would you pattern the US  after??

 

also..arnt you gonna rebute my previous post??.im curious about your reply to my quandry question facing liberals

I just got back on the boards a few minutes ago, I've been reviewing for my Balkan history class all evening.

 

A democratically socialist state such as Sweden would be fantastic. National health care and the government takes care of people pretty damn well.

im probably one of the few conservatives in the country thats for a national health plan..as rich as this country is no one should ever have to worry about stuff like do i take my kid to the doctor or put food on the table..

 

but all these national health plans put limits on what doctors can make..somebody has got to come up with a plan that insures everyone but also makes it lucrative enough for the best minds in our country to keep going into the medical fields..if we limit what doctors can make then the best minds will become lawyers or whatever...we have to have the very best in the medical field...nothing is more important to quality of life the your health...someone show me a plan like that and ill back it...

 

im not very educated in the swedish government so i cant argue or agree..i did visit sweden in the mid 80's...its a beautiful country.. as for quality of life it didnt look much different then the US imo...most people we living well but they had their share of poverty too...

 

i love our form of government and think its the best..but i also know there are others out there where the vast majority of their population lives fullfilling lives...i can tell you first hand about germany..which is similiar to sweden (or it was when i was there)

 

i lived in germany for 4 years..lived on the economy...lived with a german girl for awhile..their quality of life is very similiar to ours too (atleast it was before they absorbed east germany)...this is what it was like in the mid 80's...big difference i noticed was that very few people there own homes...everyone lives in apartments...great public transportation..you really dont need a car in germany if you live in any good size city...another difference is most people work 30 hour weeks and get 4 weeks vacation (that change id welcome here :D )...though they have their workaholics too...alcoholism is a real problem there...everyone drinks beer...young kids can get beer at clubs (im talking like 12 year olds) until 10 pm..its a major problem...smoking too..EVERYONE smokes in that country..its unbelievable..that have no anti - smoking campaigns at all...there is no such thing as non smoking areas in public places...seems like the national pastime is drinking and smoking :( ..probably have more people in poverty but they also have a serious immigration problem stemming from africa and the meiddle east...big cities are just loaded with immigrants and most are treated like crap...only allowed to work minimum wage jobs and thats only if they pay off the right official to get a work permit...they cant seem to get a handle on that problem...i dont understand why they just dont close off the borders...thought they might say the same about us

 

all in all..id say quality of life is similiar to ours...probably the same in sweden...i almost stayed in germany working for our military as a civilian..but at the last minute decided i missed it back home too much

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