Ed Farmer says Sox quit on Manuel

[BrandoFan]

If true.....how f***ing dare they.

 

:puke

[flippedoutpunk]

Hope they don't do the same to Ozzie. A game like todays doesn't help.

[Mr. Showtime]

If true.....how f***ing dare they.

 

:puke

I think it was more along the lines of they just tuned him out, and went into business for themselves.

 

Either way, as we're seeing now with Ozzie, it's the players not the manager.

[Rowand44]

I like ozzie better then Manuel no doubt about it. But after watching this crap happen again this year, I realize I blamed far to much on Manuel.

[Old Socks]

No, you didn't.

[BrandoFan]

Hope they don't do the same to Ozzie.  A game like todays doesn't help.

I don't think they quit.

 

I think they were less talented than they/we thought.

Choking didn't help, either.

 

But if they really did quit....then they didn't quit on Manuel - they quit on Sox organization, Sox history and Sox fans.

 

And by "quit" I mean "took a dump on".

[flippedoutpunk]

I hate brown showers.

[qwerty]

he just could not manage in any which way or form imo

[BrandoFan]

he just could not manage in any which way or form imo

Funny but I distinctly remember him squeezing out 76 wins out of the 1999 squad that had a 20 Mill payroll and was missing Frank Thomas in the final 2 months.

 

He then led a 30 Mill budget 2000 team to 95 wins - and that was while Indians still had Lofton, Robbie, Fryman, Gonzalez, Colon and Thome. If 2004 Sox squad had to play under those circumstances, they'd be lucky to win 85 games.

 

2001 is a wash since Sox sustained to many key injuries early in the season and didn't really have a chance. .

 

He made a few blunders (Sullivan to Ortiz comes to mind), but it was the PLAYERS who ultimately failed in 2002 and 2003. Tinkering was just a futile attempt to jump-start these overpaid, choking bums.

 

2002 team was burried when Wells-for-Ritchie swap occured and Thomas couldn't regain batspeed from tricepts tear until September when it was too late. Then Kenny Lofton quit on the team in May. Red-hot Crede should have been brought up earlier, but having Clayton at SS didn't allow for it to happen. Minny got the lead and never looked back -- just as the Sox did to a more "talented" Indians team in 2000.

 

2003 team was basically sabotaged by the Unholy Quartet of Koch, White, Konerko and Wright. Rios and Daubach didn't help, but those 4 regulars stopped EVERY 1st half momentum dead in its tracks -- and the season was basically lost in the 1st half.

 

You're now seeing Ozzieball in full bloom - blown off the field by Cleveland f***ing Indians.

[qwerty]

Funny but I distinctly remember him squeezing out 76 wins out of the 1999 squad that had a 20 Mill payroll and was missing Frank Thomas in the final 2 months.

 

He then led a 30 Mill budget 2000 team to 95 wins - and that was while Indians still had Lofton, Robbie, Fryman, Gonzalez, Colon and Thome. If 2004 Sox squad had to play under those circumstances, they'd be lucky to win 85 games.

 

2001 is a wash since Sox sustained to many key injuries early in the season and didn't really have a chance. .   

 

He made a few blunders (Sullivan to Ortiz comes to mind), but it was the PLAYERS who ultimately failed in 2002 and 2003. Tinkering was just a futile attempt to jump-start these overpaid, choking bums.

 

2002 team was burried when Wells-for-Ritchie swap occured and Thomas couldn't regain batspeed from tricepts tear until September when it was too late. Then Kenny Lofton quit on the team in May. Red-hot Crede should have been brought up earlier, but having Clayton at SS didn't allow for it to happen. Minny got the lead and never looked back  -- just as the Sox did to a more "talented" Indians team in 2000. 

 

2003 team was basically sabotaged by the Unholy Quartet of Koch, White, Konerko and Wright.    Rios and Daubach didn't help, but those 4 regulars stopped EVERY 1st half momentum dead in its tracks -- and the season was basically lost in the 1st half.   

 

You're now seeing Ozzieball in full bloom - blown off the field by Cleveland f***ing Indians.

offensively i think ur right he tried all he could with flip flopping the line-up it just did not pan out the way we would have all hoped. he could not handle the pitchers at all though one game he wouldleave in a guy to long the next game he would take the guy out in the 5 after just giving up say one run was there a reason no just a bad managerial decision . oh and the bullpen don't if want to discuss how he used the bullpen

[BrandoFan]

offensively i think ur right he tried all he could with flip flopping the line-up it just did not pan out the way we would have all hoped. he could not handle the pitchers at all though one game he wouldleave in a guy to long the next game he would take the guy out in the 5 after just giving up say one run was there a reason no just a bad managerial decision . oh and the bullpen don't if want to discuss how he used the bullpen

I don't agree with a thing you said.

 

Nothing wrong with tinkering. Whatsoever. It's laughable to blame anyone but the hitters for their woes.

 

I am not sure how you wanted him to "handle" Ritchie, Wright, White, Koch and Bartolo.....Needless to say, he was actually smart not letting Garland pitch deep into the games because Garland falls apart in the 7th regularly, it's supported by numbers. Maybe if Judy had an actual desire to excel and an out pitch, he would have made it deep into the games on his own. But I am sure, Jerry didn't encourage him enough..... :puke

 

As far as bullpen....He did ok for the most part. Foulke crapped out early in 2002, so he lost the closer's job. If he didn't lose his job, do you think Thomas would have started hitting in April-August all of the sudden? Or Wells-Ritchie abomination of a trade would have been reversed? Maybe Clayton would have disappeared during ST, so Jose could slide back to SS with then-dominant Crede ccould be brought up to start at 3B from ST on? Then a team would have gotten on a serious roll, easily 10-12 game improvement in May-June; Kenny Lofton and Ray Durham continue wrecking havoc on the basepaths and don't get traded. Everybody in the line-up continues to feed off one another ala in 2000, Minnesota chokes, Sox cruise......

 

I called for Manuel's head this time last year, but looking back at 2001-2003 Black Hole, I realize The Great Ghandini was the LEAST of Sox problems.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

If true.....how f***ing dare they.

 

:puke

The temptation was pretty great to quit on a slug like that. He was totally worthless.

[qwerty]

I don't agree with a thing you said.

 

Nothing wrong with tinkering. Whatsoever. It's laughable to blame anyone but the hitters for their woes.

 

I am not sure how you wanted him to "handle" Ritchie, Wright, White, Koch and Bartolo.....Needless to say, he was actually smart not letting Garland pitch deep into the games because Garland falls apart in the 7th regularly, it's supported by numbers. Maybe if Judy had an actual desire to excel and an out pitch, he would have made it deep into the games on his own.  But I am sure, Jerry didn't encourage him enough..... :puke

 

As far as bullpen....He did ok for the most part. Foulke crapped out early in 2002, so he lost the closer's job. If he didn't lose his job, do you think Thomas would have started hitting in April-August all of the sudden? Or Wells-Ritchie abomination of a trade would have been reversed? Maybe Clayton would have disappeared during ST, so Jose could slide back to SS with then-dominant Crede ccould be brought up to start at 3B from ST on? Then a team would have gotten on a serious roll, easily 10-12 game improvement in May-June;  Kenny Lofton and Ray Durham continue wrecking havoc on the basepaths and don't get traded.  Everybody in the line-up continues to feed off one another ala in 2000, Minnesota chokes, Sox cruise......

 

I called for Manuel's head this time last year, but looking back at 2001-2003 Black Hole, I realize The Great Ghandini was the LEAST of Sox problems.

i never said tinkering the lineup was bad i just said that even though he did it hardly worked out until the latter part of the year when we were already 8-10 games out of it

[qwerty]

The temptation was pretty great to quit on a slug like that.  He was totally worthless.

just how i feel

[BrandoFan]

The temptation was pretty great to quit on a slug like that.  He was totally worthless.

Ignorant bulls***: Manuel is worthless.

 

Sickening bulls***: players have a right to quit on this franchise and its starving fans under ANY circumstances.

[Chisoxfn]

Well for those that knock tinkering, just look at Mike Scioscia, he easily tinkers as much as Manuel did.

 

My problem with Manuel was it didn't seem like he had the guts to tell those players that zoned him out to get lost. I think Ozzie has the balls to do it and that he and KW have the relationship to the point that if a player isn't working out, Ozzie can tell Kenny and Kenny will ship the guy out and try to get what he can in return.

[aboz56]

Well I will agree with Brando on this and say that no matter how bad of a manager someone is, a true professional never quits, no matter the circumstances.

[BrandoFan]

Turning point of the Manuel Era (after the triumphant 2000):

 

1. Thomas blows out his tricepts. It essentially kills 2001 and 2002 in retrospect since it took him almost 2 years to heal. Boomer, Barcelo and Rauch injuries were pretty underrated in how much they hurt the Sox, but this one is the biggest.

 

2. Kip Wells is traded for Ritchie. If Hurt's and Rauch's injury didn't kill the 2002 season, this one did for sure. And once 2002 was "dead", JR wasn't gonna go on a spending spree in 2003, something that resulted in such season-killing "bargains" as White and Koch.

 

3. Almost 5 Mill is wasted on Cancer Clayton who not only displaces Valentin to CF which leads to hamstring problems and timing issues, but who is absolutely brutal at the plate in the 1st half while the team still had a chance. The funniest part is that in 2001, Clayton wasn't even better than Valentin at SS, with Val having a much higher RangeFactor and turning a ton more DP to make up for the extra errors..........This idiotic signing continues to haunt the Sox in 2002 where not only Clayton's 4.5 Mill could have been spent on a #2-3 pitcher, which would have negated the need to trade for Ritchie, but it also blocked Joe Crede from being called up much earlier in 2002 -- and we know what an offensive force Crede was that year.

 

 

The complete cause-effect of these events has not been established yet: if say 2001 team is healthy and winning, drawing bigger crowds in the process, 2002 team has a higher payroll, probably winning the division or being in it 'til the end. Then the 2003 payroll is much higher than 50 Mill, with Sox definately winning the division....That's how you build momentum and win your fanbase back.

 

Obviously, those forces were WAY to strong for Manuel to make a difference either way. The chips fell REALLY badly in 2001 and it snow-balled from there....

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Turning point of the Manuel Era (after the triumphant 2000):

 

1. Thomas blows out his tricepts.  It essentially kills 2001 and 2002 in retrospect.    Boomer, Barcelo and Rauch injuries were pretty underrated in how much they hurt the Sox, but this one is the biggest.

 

2. Kip Wells is traded for Ritchie.  If Hurt's and Rauch's injury didn't kill the 2002 season, this one did for sure. And once 2002 was "dead", JR wasn't gonna go on a spending spree in 2003, something that resulted in such season-killing "bargains" as White and Koch. 

 

3. Almost 5 Mill is wasted on Cancer Clayton who not only displaces Valentin to CF which leads to hamstring problems and timing issues, but who is absolutely brutal at the plate in the 1st half while the team still had a chance.  The funniest part is that in 2001, Clayton wasn't even better than Valentin at SS, with Val having a much higher RangeFactor and turning a ton more DP to make up for the extra errors..........This idiotic signing continues to haunt the Sox in 2002 where not only Clayton's 4.5 Mill could have been spent on a #2-3 pitcher, which would have negated the need to trade for Ritchie, but it also blocked Joe Crede from being called up much earlier in 2002 -- and we know what an offensive force Crede was that year.

 

 

The complete cause-effect of these events has not been established yet:  if 2001 team is healthy and winning, drawing bigger crowds in the process, 2002 team has a higher payroll, probably winning the division or being in it 'til the end. Then the 2003 payroll is much higher than 50 Mill, with Sox definately winning the division....That's how you build momentum and win your fanbase back.

I agree on all points but to add to the Thomas part is that now he is so terrified he wont make it to 500 HR's that thats all he's trying to get now. He totally forgot about the team and is on this mad dash to hit HR's. That's costing the team big time also.

[BrandoFan]

I agree on all points but to add to the Thomas part is that now he is so terrified he wont make it to 500 HR's that thats all he's trying to get now.  He totally forgot about the team and is on this mad dash to hit HR's.  That's costing the team big time also.

Yeah, but it has very little to do with the fact that Manuel was the victim of and the scapegoat for what basically amounted to an injury epidemic and Kenny's huge deal-making f***-ups.

 

It can all be traced back to 2001.

 

If Hurt, Boomer and Rauch are healthy and Clayton's money is spent on a pitcher...Sox probably win the division 3 straight years and have a big payroll in 2004. There is certainly no Ritchie, White or Koch trade because the team has other options and doesn't have to penny-pinch.......It's like that movie Sliding Doors where events unforld favorably in a parallel universe.

[BrandoFan]

Well for those that knock tinkering, just look at Mike Scioscia, he easily tinkers as much as Manuel did.

 

My problem with Manuel was it didn't seem like he had the guts to tell those players that zoned him out to get lost.  I think Ozzie has the balls to do it and that he and KW have the relationship to the point that if a player isn't working out, Ozzie can tell Kenny and Kenny will ship the guy out and try to get what he can in return.

Remember that Manuel had a Dusty Baker rep of knowing how to relate to and motivate players....Manager of the Year in 2000 and personal hero of every Sox fan circa that era.

 

Combination of key injuries and KW's idiotic decisions did the 2001-2002 teams in. Manuel had NO chance. Piniella wouldn't have saved those train-wrecks.

 

2003 is squarely on JR and on the players' conscience. I don't care if you suck because you're trying too hard or not enough; go tell your excuses on the mountain. Season was lost in the 1st half. White, Koch, Konerko, Wright, Rios, Daubach, Konerko, Crede, Buerhle, Rowand, Colon - all severely underperformed their career averages in the first half. Thomas, Ordonez, Valentin didn't get hot until June, either. In essence, Loaiza and Jimenez were carrying the team in April and May. 2 f***in' players!

 

The team briefly showed what it could do when everyone is clickng and feeding off one another in August. But obviously it was too late.

 

It's always easy to blame the manager. It's silly but nonetheless convenient. I was guilty of that myself.