Just putting a thought out there.

[baggio202]

doubleM23, kipwellsfan, sideshowapu, soxheads, you ever come to Chicago, the drinks are on me

 

I'll drive down from Michigan just to say thank you in person -

im staying away from the park that day

[KipWellsFan]

What are you thanking me for?

[bjmarte]

You guys talk about how thousands of people died in 9/11 well this is true and it was a terrible tragedy and I feel terrible for friends and family of the victims.  But what many people take a blind eye to is that tens upon thousands of people all over the world die every day due to hunger.  Why cant america spend money on these types of problems instead of "Star Wars" and all those other crazy weapons systems.  I am by no means an expert on war or politics but I know the US could spend more money on these types of things.

 

PS U.S. has one of the highest child poverty rates in the world.

 

Im Canadian by the way.

 

All replies and opinions welcome.

Total ignorance. Capitalism has been more successful than any other system at raising the people under it out of poverty. As a country we are giving more money than any other country, but to you it isn't enough. When will enough be enough. The greatest gift we can give is spreading capitalism.

[cwsox]

we as a nation and as individuals per capita give a very small percentatge of actual GNP and income to assist others

 

but I agree that American consumerism can sweep anything out of the way and we could use that as force for everything we wanted without recourse to war if we were so inclined

[bjmarte]

we as a nation and as individuals per capita give a very small percentatge of actual GNP and income to assist others

 

but I agree that American consumerism can sweep anything out of the way and we could use that as force for everything we wanted without recourse to war if we were so inclined

I'd call your intentional (benefit of the doubt) misinterpretation of my post stupid if I didn't already have so much respect for you.

[Guest hotsoxchick1]

we as a nation and as individuals per capita give a very small percentatge of actual GNP and income to assist others

 

but I agree that American consumerism can sweep anything out of the way and we could use that as force for everything we wanted without recourse to war if we were so inclined

I'd call your intentional (benefit of the doubt) misinterpretation of my post stupid if I didn't already have so much respect for you.

wheres that picture bj??????????i want to see it now......lol

[cwsox]

we as a nation and as individuals per capita give a very small percentatge of actual GNP and income to assist others

 

but I agree that American consumerism can sweep anything out of the way and we could use that as force for everything we wanted without recourse to war if we were so inclined

I'd call your intentional (benefit of the doubt) misinterpretation of my post stupid if I didn't already have so much respect for you.

the respect is very mutual

 

and it seems that I have missed something in your post - stupidity is not unknown in my life -

 

 

and send HSC the picture again! It is obviously cold in Chicago and she needs you to light her fire as only you can do!

[bjmarte]

we as a nation and as individuals per capita give a very small percentatge of actual GNP and income to assist others

 

but I agree that American consumerism can sweep anything out of the way and we could use that as force for everything we wanted without recourse to war if we were so inclined

I'd call your intentional (benefit of the doubt) misinterpretation of my post stupid if I didn't already have so much respect for you.

the respect is very mutual

 

and it seems that I have missed something in your post - stupidity is not unknown in my life -

 

 

and send HSC the picture again! It is obviously cold in Chicago and she needs you to light her fire as only you can do!

I'm not advocating capitalism as a means to avoid war when called for, just a means to lift people out of poverty.

 

 

 

 

I'll look for the pic for HSC when I get some more time. I'm worried about the affects it has on Heather though.

[cwsox]

oh, ok, but in the sign of your signature, war did not end slavery in Europe, it was done because of the abolitionist social movement which peacefully took hold everywhere except in he US where it was resisted by war...

 

facism collapsed under its own weight, Mussolini was gone before the allied troops were anywhere close to taking Italy -

 

and if Communism fell in any war in 1989, I missed it - actually all of Eastern Europe threw off communism without war and the Soviet Uniuon collapsed without war and China turned away from communism without war -

 

so the dude with the sign is abit silly and a tad ill informed!

 

the non violent collapse of communism can be attributed to a number of factors, and if we applied those same factors towards anywhere else, I believe the same results would happen. Without war.

 

Now if the young man carying the sign would care to enlist to put his own ass on the line for what he claims to believe, that would be cool!

 

 

Send HSC that picture! It is precisely because of its effect on Heather that HSC wants it!

[bjmarte]

oh, ok, but in the sign of your signature, war did not end slavery in Europe, it was done because of the abolitionist social movement which peacefully took hold everywhere except in he US where it was resisted by war...

 

facism collapsed under its own weight, Mussolini was gone before the allied troops were anywhere close to taking Italy -

 

and if Communism fell in any war in 1989, I missed it - actually all of Eastern Europe threw off communism without war and the Soviet Uniuon collapsed without war and China turned away from communism without war -

 

so the dude with the sign is abit silly and a tad ill informed!

 

the non violent collapse of communism can be attributed to a number of factors, and if we applied those same factors towards anywhere else, I believe the same results would happen.   Without war.

 

Now if the young man carying the sign would care to enlist to put his own ass on the line for what he claims to believe, that would be cool!

 

 

Send HSC that picture!  It is precisely because of its effect on Heather that HSC wants it!

Doesn't change the fact that it was war that ended slavery in this country. And although Mussolini was gone already it's hard to say that War didn't play into his fall. Same with Communism, it's hard to argue that pressure from American military didn't weigh heavly into the reasons for the fall of the USSR. Specifically with the Civil War and WWII, I'd like to hear the arguments about how we could have and should have avoided combat at any cost.

 

 

 

I found the pic. I won't post it directly, just the link: Me in HSC's (and Heather's) dream

[bjmarte]

Oh, and while you are telling me about how unjust and immoral those two wars were, feel free to take on the other two signs in my sig/avatar.

[DonkeyKongerko]

i think i speak for others bj when i say your signature pic is unnecessarily huge.

[cwsox]

BJ, I clicked on the picture and realized it was the sdame one that we me $500 of therapy to get out of my mind the last time I saw it!

 

For the rest - you know me well enough to know I am very well prepared to discourse on those at length - the fall of communism particularly was the triumph of ideas and consumerism over ideology and repression - no war there -

 

if anything, massive military spending helped backrupt the USSR; with the projected $350 billion deficit without the proposed tax cuts and without the costs of any of this war preparation and probable war factored in, we are following right in their footsteps.

 

For the rest - what do you take as your starting date? I dop not feel that we are in any way in any situation comprable to 1939 or 1941 and 1861 vis a vis Iraq and there were so many possibilities that were never explored in the prior years to WWII and the Civil War -

 

I wrote major papers in seminary on the role of Bonhoeffer with the German resistance and the assassination plots and pacifism and the penultimate situations in which an ethic may be broached - too too much to do here in this forum and I am in a baseball mood -

 

I feel like hugging my friends and looking at all we have in common in celebrating, not contention. Get me another day when I am pissed at things. There are other options, there are always other options.

 

But I will tell you one thing: any little male supporter of war that is not in the military is to be a f***ing god damned hypocrite who should be forcably shut up. I felt that way in the Vietnam years and I feel that way now. Anyone who thinks people should fight and die in wars, go do it and put your ass on the line. Arm chair warriors who sit at home and say others should fight and die disgust me. Especially arm chair warriors who ahve a million whiny self-in dulgent excuses: I'm in school. I can't leave my dvd player.

 

Believe it, then back it up with your whole life and risk your own self for what you believe. Anything else is hypocrasy and mortal cowardice of the extreme kind. And if America really should go war, all the patriots would be on the front lines and not in the campus bars saying f*** France, right? How can anyone criticise France when they will not put their own ass on the line? Cowards want the French to fight wars they will not fight themselves. The hypocrasy of it, I detest.

 

That is why baggio, HSC, and I never get into it although we totally disagree. They are veterans. No hypocrasy in their lives. And any punk ass white boy who thinks that war is good while my son is a Marine and they are not in the military talking tough in this country, like that guy in the sign, I would like to take that sign and peacefully and while singing Where Have All the Flowers Gone shove that sign up the two bit hypocrite's asshole. Why isn't that f***er in the service if he thinks war is good? I'll you why - he is a coward, a moral coward, and no friend of America if he will not enlist and fight for what he thinks is right. Pansy ass wants to send others to fight wars while he stays at home? f***ing asshole should be shot - peacefully.

 

And if my son is killed in this war that others want - trust me, every male of military age who talks big stuff about this war and does not enlist - better avoid me for the rest of their lives. Stay the f*** away from Comiskey because my son ain't dying in some war that anyone else wants so they can drink beers at a baseball game. Someone wants war - enlist or shut the f*** up and get some moral connections in their life. Back up what one says with their life. That is all I will respect.

 

See why I like baseball? It is easier to discuss. I wil need to do an hour of yoga tonight to calm down.

[bjmarte]

i think i speak for others bj when i say your signature pic is unnecessarily huge.

Are you sure? How many others?

 

We can take a poll.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Oh, and while you are telling me about how unjust and immoral those two wars were, feel free to take on the other two signs in my sig/avatar.

Saddam does kill his own people, but then again, so do the UN Sanctions in Iraq. 500,000+ children dead.

 

But what about all the dictators that killed more that we were in cahoots with and that we didn't try to stop? Pinochet, Chairman Mao, Roberto D'Aubuisson, et al. We trained and installed almost all these leaders into power so we didn't care that they killed people. If we are going to say that we are "wanting to bring human rights to the world" then why not start by putting Henry Kissinger on trial for his mass murders that he helped orchestrate or how about putting the CIA on trial for destabilizing governments all over the world and holding them accountable for the mass violence that occured afterwards.

[bjmarte]

Oh, and while you are telling me about how unjust and immoral those two wars were, feel free to take on the other two signs in my sig/avatar.

Saddam does kill his own people, but then again, so do the UN Sanctions in Iraq. 500,000+ children dead.

 

But what about all the dictators that killed more that we were in cahoots with and that we didn't try to stop? Pinochet, Chairman Mao, Roberto D'Aubuisson, et al. We trained and installed almost all these leaders into power so we didn't care that they killed people. If we are going to say that we are "wanting to bring human rights to the world" then why not start by putting Henry Kissinger on trial for his mass murders that he helped orchestrate or how about putting the CIA on trial for destabilizing governments all over the world and holding them accountable for the mass violence that occured afterwards.

Or why not start with getting rid of Saddam the Kurd mudering weapon monger?

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Or why not start with getting rid of Saddam the Kurd mudering weapon monger?

Ah yes, Saddam's weapons that he used to kill the Kurds. You know who has the receipts for those? Rumsfeld.

 

We had no problem when he was gassing the Kurds. So don't give me the "We need to save the Kurds" BS because the U.S. knew that he was doing it and gave him the weapons to do so. K Thx. This war is far from being about human rights.

[bjmarte]

Or why not start with getting rid of Saddam the Kurd mudering weapon monger?

Ah yes, Saddam's weapons that he used to kill the Kurds. You know who has the receipts for those? Rumsfeld.

 

We had no problem when he was gassing the Kurds. So don't give me the "We need to save the Kurds" BS because the U.S. knew that he was doing it and gave him the weapons to do so. K Thx. This war is far from being about human rights.

Well it depends on how you look at it. It is about keeping Saddam from buying, developing, and/or using weapons of mass destruction against the Kurds, the US, or anyone else.

[doubleM23]

You guys talk about how thousands of people died in 9/11 well this is true and it was a terrible tragedy and I feel terrible for friends and family of the victims.  But what many people take a blind eye to is that tens upon thousands of people all over the world die every day due to hunger.  Why cant america spend money on these types of problems instead of "Star Wars" and all those other crazy weapons systems.  I am by no means an expert on war or politics but I know the US could spend more money on these types of things.

 

PS U.S. has one of the highest child poverty rates in the world.

 

Im Canadian by the way.

 

All replies and opinions welcome.

Not even worrying about the rest of the world, most expert estimate that around 30% of Americans are dealing with poverty.

 

While the Census figures reveal a significant number of Americans living in poverty, many experts feel that the measures used by the federal government drastically underestimate the real scale of poverty in America - primarily because the official poverty thresholds are considered "too low." Many experts believe a more realistic poverty threshold for a family of four would be in the area of $30,000 a year - and that a more accurate estimate of the poverty rate in America would be 30% of the total population. (Economic Policy Institute, 2001.)

 

And without checking the stats, I think the U.S. has the highest rates of child and overall poverty for any industrialized nations... If it's not at the top of both categories, we're up there.

[bjmarte]

You guys talk about how thousands of people died in 9/11 well this is true and it was a terrible tragedy and I feel terrible for friends and family of the victims.  But what many people take a blind eye to is that tens upon thousands of people all over the world die every day due to hunger.  Why cant america spend money on these types of problems instead of "Star Wars" and all those other crazy weapons systems.  I am by no means an expert on war or politics but I know the US could spend more money on these types of things.

 

PS U.S. has one of the highest child poverty rates in the world.

 

Im Canadian by the way.

 

All replies and opinions welcome.

Not even worrying about the rest of the world, most expert estimate that around 30% of Americans are dealing with poverty.

 

While the Census figures reveal a significant number of Americans living in poverty, many experts feel that the measures used by the federal government drastically underestimate the real scale of poverty in America - primarily because the official poverty thresholds are considered "too low." Many experts believe a more realistic poverty threshold for a family of four would be in the area of $30,000 a year - and that a more accurate estimate of the poverty rate in America would be 30% of the total population. (Economic Policy Institute, 2001.)

 

And without checking the stats, I think the U.S. has the highest rates of child and overall poverty for any industrialized nations... If it's not at the top of both categories, we're up there.

I'm not arguing that there aren't people in America who struggle financially. Nor am I arguing that they don't need any help. I will tell you though that Americans have almost no concept of poverty at all when compared to the poor in other, less capitalist nations. The web site you quote lists the poverty rate for a family of four at $30,000 a year. How may of those families have TVs and VCRs? How many families in North Korea, Afghanistan, or Ethiopia would love to make that much money. If you want to challenge me then I dare you to look up the median incomes for any of those countries and post them here, then tell me I'm wrong.

[Mathew]

doubleM23, kipwellsfan, sideshowapu, soxheads, you ever come to Chicago, the drinks are on me

 

I'll drive down from Michigan just to say thank you in person -

I want that same deal when I come this summer. Not the thanks, the drinks!

[Mathew]

kipwellsfan..in goerge bush's budget proposal..he has set aside i want to say 400 billion but thats sound like way too much...so i cant give you a specific figure but its an awful lot of money for aide to africa in the form of food and medical supllies..including testing for aides and money for research and drugs to help those infected..

Canada's giving a lot to Africa this year too, must be a trend. The U.S. is borrowing a ton this year though aren't they, that probably will suck for the economy, I'm guessing(I don't really know).

[Heads22]

doubleM23, kipwellsfan, sideshowapu, soxheads, you ever come to Chicago, the drinks are on me

 

I'll drive down from Michigan just to say thank you in person -

You'll have to make it a chocolate milk or something, I'm 15.

[doubleM23]

You guys talk about how thousands of people died in 9/11 well this is true and it was a terrible tragedy and I feel terrible for friends and family of the victims.  But what many people take a blind eye to is that tens upon thousands of people all over the world die every day due to hunger.  Why cant america spend money on these types of problems instead of "Star Wars" and all those other crazy weapons systems.  I am by no means an expert on war or politics but I know the US could spend more money on these types of things.

 

PS U.S. has one of the highest child poverty rates in the world.

 

Im Canadian by the way.

 

All replies and opinions welcome.

Not even worrying about the rest of the world, most expert estimate that around 30% of Americans are dealing with poverty.

 

While the Census figures reveal a significant number of Americans living in poverty, many experts feel that the measures used by the federal government drastically underestimate the real scale of poverty in America - primarily because the official poverty thresholds are considered "too low." Many experts believe a more realistic poverty threshold for a family of four would be in the area of $30,000 a year - and that a more accurate estimate of the poverty rate in America would be 30% of the total population. (Economic Policy Institute, 2001.)

 

And without checking the stats, I think the U.S. has the highest rates of child and overall poverty for any industrialized nations... If it's not at the top of both categories, we're up there.

I'm not arguing that there aren't people in America who struggle financially. Nor am I arguing that they don't need any help. I will tell you though that Americans have almost no concept of poverty at all when compared to the poor in other, less capitalist nations. The web site you quote lists the poverty rate for a family of four at $30,000 a year. How may of those families have TVs and VCRs? How many families in North Korea, Afghanistan, or Ethiopia would love to make that much money. If you want to challenge me then I dare you to look up the median incomes for any of those countries and post them here, then tell me I'm wrong.

I'm not gonna argue with you. US$18,000 a year, the government's poverty line, is still ridiculously wealthy in many, many countries. However, the fact that nearly 1/3 of the population in the world's wealthiest country struggle to make ends meet just might shed some light on why people don't like us.

 

I haven't talked to everyone in the world, so I really don't know the exact numbers, but I'm willing to bet a lot more people don't like the US because they're their poor; they're not poor because they don't like the US.

[bjmarte]

You guys talk about how thousands of people died in 9/11 well this is true and it was a terrible tragedy and I feel terrible for friends and family of the victims.  But what many people take a blind eye to is that tens upon thousands of people all over the world die every day due to hunger.  Why cant america spend money on these types of problems instead of "Star Wars" and all those other crazy weapons systems.  I am by no means an expert on war or politics but I know the US could spend more money on these types of things.

 

PS U.S. has one of the highest child poverty rates in the world.

 

Im Canadian by the way.

 

All replies and opinions welcome.

Not even worrying about the rest of the world, most expert estimate that around 30% of Americans are dealing with poverty.

 

While the Census figures reveal a significant number of Americans living in poverty, many experts feel that the measures used by the federal government drastically underestimate the real scale of poverty in America - primarily because the official poverty thresholds are considered "too low." Many experts believe a more realistic poverty threshold for a family of four would be in the area of $30,000 a year - and that a more accurate estimate of the poverty rate in America would be 30% of the total population. (Economic Policy Institute, 2001.)

 

And without checking the stats, I think the U.S. has the highest rates of child and overall poverty for any industrialized nations... If it's not at the top of both categories, we're up there.

I'm not arguing that there aren't people in America who struggle financially. Nor am I arguing that they don't need any help. I will tell you though that Americans have almost no concept of poverty at all when compared to the poor in other, less capitalist nations. The web site you quote lists the poverty rate for a family of four at $30,000 a year. How may of those families have TVs and VCRs? How many families in North Korea, Afghanistan, or Ethiopia would love to make that much money. If you want to challenge me then I dare you to look up the median incomes for any of those countries and post them here, then tell me I'm wrong.

I'm not gonna argue with you. US$18,000 a year, the government's poverty line, is still ridiculously wealthy in many, many countries. However, the fact that nearly 1/3 of the population in the world's wealthiest country struggle to make ends meet just might shed some light on why people don't like us.

 

I haven't talked to everyone in the world, so I really don't know the exact numbers, but I'm willing to bet a lot more people don't like the US because they're their poor; they're not poor because they don't like the US.

What you say is all true but I couldn't ferret out a point. The point you should be trying to make is that their being poor doesn't have anything to do with us directly so their being mad at us because we don't give them enough aid doesn't really make any sense.