JoshPR Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Jimmy Greenfield -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GRAND STANDING Working together to fan trade winds What trade can the White Sox and Cubs make with each other that would help both clubs? It goes against Cubs and White Sox fans' fiber to want to help each other out, which makes what I'm about to ask you to do even more difficult. The month of May isn't over yet, but it's apparent that it won't take a whole lot for either team to go to the playoffs. The Cubs are near the top of the NL Central despite losing Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, Sammy Sosa, Mark Grudzielank, Alex Gonzalez and Mike Remlinger at various times. The Sox are in good shape, too, even though they might have been better off forfeiting every fifth game rather than subjecting their bullpen to dozens of innings of extra work mopping up for Dan Wright, Felix Diaz and Neal Cotts. Plenty has gone right but there's room for improvement, which is why we're going to play my favorite game: Let's Make a Pretend Deal. The only rules: It needs to make sense for both the Cubs and the White Sox, and it can only involve those two teams. No three-way trades allowed. If you want to include prospects, go right ahead. At first, I didn't think I could find a blockbuster to help both teams and was prepared to offer up a minor trade. But then it hit me: The Cubs trade Matt Clement and Corey Patterson to the White Sox for Magglio Ordonez and Kelly Wunsch. It's a scary trade because of the marquee players involved and because Ken Williams and Jim Hendry would have plenty at stake if they actually pulled it off. But here's the reason they should do it: The trade makes sense. The White Sox's biggest need is quite clearly a fifth starter. They also need, in no particular order, a fifth starter, a fifth starter and a fifth starter. Everything else pales in comparison. On the other hand, the Cubs have had decent outings from their No. 5 starter Sergio Mitre, who will go to the minors when Prior comes back early next month. If Clement is dealt, Mitre can step back in and back end a rotation of Prior, Wood, Zambrano and Maddux. So Clement goes to the White Sox and they save millions while filling a huge need. But why deal Ordonez? First of all, because you have to give up talent to get talent. Second of all, the Sox have enough offense in Carlos Lee, Paul Konerko, Frank Thomas and Jose Valentin to get by without Maggs. Third of all, there's not a chance he signs with the White Sox next season. The Sox don't give out long-term deals worth tens of millions of dollars. They just don't. Clement is also a free agent next season, which means the Sox don't have to make a commitment to him. The Cubs get a dependable lefty in Wunsch, who has worn out his welcome with the Sox and put Ordonez in center field to replace Patterson, who gives the Sox the lefty bat they need. Why would the Sox want the free-swinging Patterson? Because he's good defensively, cheap for a few more years and not only has the potential to be great but produces every now and then. Plus, if he works out he's a huge marketing tool for the Sox. If the Sox had a No. 5 starter anywhere in the system, they would have found him by now. The Cubs have the depth to part with Clement, and a consistent superstar like Ordonez will be insurance if Sosa is hurt for a while. More importantly, it'll help prevent such a hit-or-miss offense. That's my bright idea. You got a better one? :puke :puke :puke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilJester99 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Man seems like almost everyone at the Cubune are smoking some good s***. I bet their elevator music is Bob Marley as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I hate to say it, but I like the idea, mostly. Corey Patterson's attitude scares me. But, if he doesn pan out, it's a great move for the Sox. A rotation of Buehrle, Clement, Loaiza, Honey Weisse, and Garland for the next 3-4 years sounds fine to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxrd5 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 The thing I dont understand about this trade is it really doesnt help either team.... The Cubs especially...Where would they play Magglio, Sosa and Alou? Nothing against Maggs defense but that just wouldnt work! Come on Jimmy Greenjeans....you can do better than this trade! I've seen better offers made on the street corner! He must of worked hard to find a trade where absolutely both teams lose out... He must definitely be a Cubs fan to think another power hitter would help their team at this point!?!?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 either smoking s*** or taking some acid - must have been a slow news days to put filler like that in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 That trade is far worse for the Cubs than the White Sox. Eventhough we lose Maggs, we get Patterson (left handed bat in CF), and we can easily find another RF who will put up numbers. Hell we can sign Mondesi as long as we are willing to just pay him a mil or so. Clement would give us the power rhp we have been looking for. Where as the Cubs now would have 3 RF or LF, with no CF. They would also have hurt there staff considerably, because Clement has been one of the most consistent pitchers in the NL. Id be really reluctant to make this deal, but the bottomline is: Maggs makes $14mil, Wunsch under $1, Patterson under $1, Clement $6mil. Sox save $8mil, which we can then use to with some prospects to take on another bat or pitcher. If it was Zombrano id say yes without a doubt, but even with Clement Im pretty tempted. SB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Cmon now, people have to realize that the chance of the Sox re-signing Ordonez after this year are pretty slim, especially given our outfield prospects in the minors. Turning him into Clement and Patterson sounds like it accomplishes two things 1) Keeping the Sox competitive now, and 2) Allowing the Sox to be competitive for years to come. It also give the Sox more flexibility in upcoming seasons, as far as using prospects in deals etc. It doesn't do much for the Cub after this season, but who cares about them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxrd5 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 That trade is far worse for the Cubs than the White Sox. Eventhough we lose Maggs, we get Patterson (left handed bat in CF), and we can easily find another RF who will put up numbers. Hell we can sign Mondesi as long as we are willing to just pay him a mil or so. Clement would give us the power rhp we have been looking for. Where as the Cubs now would have 3 RF or LF, with no CF. They would also have hurt there staff considerably, because Clement has been one of the most consistent pitchers in the NL. Id be really reluctant to make this deal, but the bottomline is: Maggs makes $14mil, Wunsch under $1, Patterson under $1, Clement $6mil. Sox save $8mil, which we can then use to with some prospects to take on another bat or pitcher. If it was Zombrano id say yes without a doubt, but even with Clement Im pretty tempted. SB I almost completely agree with you...Its naive to think that Maggs Bat would help the Cubs...they would be losing there only player with above average speed (although he doesnt steal bases) and their second best starter this year... The Sox would truly have to consider this trade because of the value they would be recieving in both talent and salary...I still probably would need a little more to give up Maggs but there is no way the Cubs would even consider this ridiculous trade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 How about Jeremy Reed and Maggs Ordonez for Carlos Zambrano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted May 25, 2004 Author Share Posted May 25, 2004 How about Jeremy Reed and Maggs Ordonez for Carlos Zambrano Zambrano ain't worth both Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 There is one flaw in this whole thing. Odds sound fairly decent that Maggs will be resigned. It sounds like there is a near zero chance of Clement going back to the Cubs. If Maggs signs a deal with us, there is no chance of him being traded until late in his contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 How about Jeremy Reed and Maggs Ordonez for Carlos Zambrano Maggs for Zambrano and a prospect would work. And no to Reed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnB Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Nah, I don't think I could stomach mags in a cubbie uniform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Maggs for Zambrano and a prospect would work. Naah, it wouldn't. Zambrano: WHIP: 0.92 (38 hits and 14 walks in 56 IP) ERA: 2.08 OPPONENTS BA FOR RH: .175 OPPONENTS BA FOR LH: .206 OVERALL OPPONENTS BA: .190 K/9IP: 8 2 HR allowed in 56 IP When Prior and Wood get back, that is the foremost world series contender in the sport. Looks like Seaver/Ryan/Koosman type s*** to me. I'm jealous. Seriously. And Clement's WHIP ratio is 1.06? He is hands down the best 4th starter in all of baseball. So, basically, if I were the Cubs GM, and you offered me Jeremy Reed and Maggs for Zambrano, I would absolutely laugh my ass off. And you think that's too much??? Well, that's why we haven't won a world series since 1917. Although you should be given a free pass as you are the foremost Jeremy Reed fan on this site from what I can tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 There is one flaw in this whole thing. Odds sound fairly decent that Maggs will be resigned. It sounds like there is a near zero chance of Clement going back to the Cubs. If Maggs signs a deal with us, there is no chance of him being traded until late in his contract. Maggs isn't coming back, regardless of what you've heard. It's just not going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moochpuppy Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 The Cubs are near the top of the NL Central despite losing Mark Prior, Kerry Wood, Sammy Sosa, Mark Grudzielank, Alex Gonzalez and Mike Remlinger at various times. Positive spin The Sox are in good shape, too, even though they might have been better off forfeiting every fifth game rather than subjecting their bullpen to dozens of innings of extra work mopping up for Dan Wright, Felix Diaz and Neal Cotts. Negative spin Welcome to the Cubune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzietheairedale Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Maybe I'm missing something, but this would be a great deal for the Cubs and it would suck for the Sox. Once Prior and Wood return, the Cubs can afford to plug Rush or Mitre into the 5th starter slot and not miss a beat losing Clement. With the best starting pitching in baseball, they lose almost nothing giving away Clement. The Sox lose their best hitter, period. Admittedly they would gain a #3 starter but trading your best hitter for a #3 starter seems stupid to me. Neither player is signed for next year, so they both likely walk. I still think, with Magglio's stated preference for the Sox, there is a glimmer of hope of re-signing him if he stays with the Sox thru the year.(especially if the Sox go to the playoffs). I don't want Patterson at any price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxrd5 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Maybe I'm missing something, but this would be a great deal for the Cubs and it would suck for the Sox. Once Prior and Wood return, the Cubs can afford to plug Rush or Mitre into the 5th starter slot and not miss a beat losing Clement. With the best starting pitching in baseball, they lose almost nothing giving away Clement. The Sox lose their best hitter, period. Admittedly they would gain a #3 starter but trading your best hitter for a #3 starter seems stupid to me. Neither player is signed for next year, so they both likely walk. I still think, with Magglio's stated preference for the Sox, there is a glimmer of hope of re-signing him if he stays with the Sox thru the year.(especially if the Sox go to the playoffs). I don't want Patterson at any price. I dont see how you can actually think this trade can help the cubs...not that i really care... What do they do with three corner outfielders...they have enough bashers already! As for the sox if they were to make this trade (which the more i think about it wouldnt be to bad) They would improve there starting pitching and give them an additional lefty bat while losing a guy we most likely wont resign anyway and Kelly Wunsch who from all accounts isnt wanted by the higher ups in the White Sox Organization. I mean its fun to discuss but I think im done with this nonsense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Maybe I'm missing something, but this would be a great deal for the Cubs and it would suck for the Sox. Once Prior and Wood return, the Cubs can afford to plug Rush or Mitre into the 5th starter slot and not miss a beat losing Clement. With the best starting pitching in baseball, they lose almost nothing giving away Clement. The Sox lose their best hitter, period. Admittedly they would gain a #3 starter but trading your best hitter for a #3 starter seems stupid to me. Neither player is signed for next year, so they both likely walk. I still think, with Magglio's stated preference for the Sox, there is a glimmer of hope of re-signing him if he stays with the Sox thru the year.(especially if the Sox go to the playoffs). I don't want Patterson at any price. This writer has too much time on his hands and needed to fill some space. This trade purposal of his has no chance of happening, but it is fun to break it down. It is pretty obvious that it favors the Sox though, and here is why. 1) If ARod has shown us anything it is that mid-market teams(like the Sox) can't tie up large portions of payroll in one player. Maggs getting 14+M/yr would serevely handicap the Sox. Besides, he isn't worth quite that much. Add in the fact that the Sox are extremely deep in outfield prospects, and it appears that Magg's days in a Sox uniform are numbered. Furthermore, it is unlike that the Sox will offer him arbitration, with the fear that he could get 14+M in arbitration and decide to stay with the Sox, which means no compensation picks. So getting something in return for Maggs would be nice. 2) This trade looks very similar to a trade that the Sox and Cubs made about a decade ago. A raw but young talented outfielder traded for a short-term solution(if the Cubs didn't sign Maggs long-term). I am not a huge Patterson fan, in fact I think he is one of the most overrated players in the game, but with that said, he isn't too far off from .280/20/80 30 2B 20 SB .800 OPS type numbers(not to mention very good D in CF). He was on pace for those numbers last year(before he got injuried). Furthermore, he has shown a little more plate disipline this year(12 BB in 157 AB's on pace for 45 BB). He is still very young(24), cheap(500K), and won't be a FA for a couple of years. He also adds a left handed bat to the order. 3) I don't think people realize how good Clement is. On most staffs this guy is an ace(he would be an ace on the Sox staff). He isn't some veteran bottom of the rotation starter. He has been very consistant over the past 2+ years. One amazing stat is that opponents haven't hit above .227 against him the past 2+ years(including a .190 BA against this year). He is also an innings eater(200+ the past 2 years). At this point I would probably trade Clement for Maggs straight up, since a top of the rotation pitcher is harder to find. Do the math, a top of the rotation starter + a young talented outfielder who will be around for a couple of years > a very good outfielder who is gone after this year + a toss in lefty. To bad the Cubs aren't stupid enough to do this trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 This wouldn't necessarily be an awful deal if the Sox got a good prospect in return as well as utilized the financial flexibility by making another trade, maybe even going after a bigger fish like Carlos Beltran. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighHeat45 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I really like clement, maybe we can go for him in the offseason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 This writer has too much time on his hands and needed to fill some space. This trade purposal of his has no chance of happening, but it is fun to break it down. It is pretty obvious that it favors the Sox though, and here is why. 1) If ARod has shown us anything it is that mid-market teams(like the Sox) can't tie up large portions of payroll in one player. Maggs getting 14+M/yr would serevely handicap the Sox. Besides, he isn't worth quite that much. Add in the fact that the Sox are extremely deep in outfield prospects, and it appears that Magg's days in a Sox uniform are numbered. Furthermore, it is unlike that the Sox will offer him arbitration, with the fear that he could get 14+M in arbitration and decide to stay with the Sox, which means no compensation picks. So getting something in return for Maggs would be nice. 2) This trade looks very similar to a trade that the Sox and Cubs made about a decade ago. A raw but young talented outfielder traded for a short-term solution(if the Cubs didn't sign Maggs long-term). I am not a huge Patterson fan, in fact I think he is one of the most overrated players in the game, but with that said, he isn't too far off from .280/20/80 30 2B 20 SB .800 OPS type numbers(not to mention very good D in CF). He was on pace for those numbers last year(before he got injuried). Furthermore, he has shown a little more plate disipline this year(12 BB in 157 AB's on pace for 45 BB). He is still very young(24), cheap(500K), and won't be a FA for a couple of years. He also adds a left handed bat to the order. 3) I don't think people realize how good Clement is. On most staffs this guy is an ace(he would be an ace on the Sox staff). He isn't some veteran bottom of the rotation starter. He has been very consistant over the past 2+ years. One amazing stat is that opponents haven't hit above .227 against him the past 2+ years(including a .190 BA against this year). He is also an innings eater(200+ the past 2 years). At this point I would probably trade Clement for Maggs straight up, since a top of the rotation pitcher is harder to find. Do the math, a top of the rotation starter + a young talented outfielder who will be around for a couple of years > a very good outfielder who is gone after this year + a toss in lefty. To bad the Cubs aren't stupid enough to do this trade. You are forgetting one thing. Clement is a FA at the end of the season as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 The Cubs trade Matt Clement and Corey Patterson to the White Sox for Magglio Ordonez and Kelly Wunsch. Vlad the Impaler had the right idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzietheairedale Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Do the math, a top of the rotation starter + a young talented outfielder who will be around for a couple of years > a very good outfielder who is gone after this year + a toss in lefty. To bad the Cubs aren't stupid enough to do this trade. Did Jim Hendry write the above summary of this proposed trade? Only somebody who works for the Cubs could sum up the trade that way. A Sox fan would say: Best hitter on the team/best outfielder/Sox icon and fan favorite who wants to stay next year + a lefty reliever > a #3 right handed pitcher who was given up for dead 2 years ago and will definitely leave after this year + a wild swinging, knucklehead CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 3) I don't think people realize how good Clement is He is 30. He is a two-pitch pitcher with a fastball topping out at 91-92 in last couple of years. There is always a concern about that slider ruining his arm, Jon Lieber style. His back and groin seem to be recurring every other year. He will be FA after 2004. Makes 6 Mill this year. Career ERA of 4.30 (league average was 4.20) Career WHIP of 1.40 Pitched in Qualcomm, Pro Player and Wrigley - all either neutral or pitcher's parks. This great start certainly raises his value, but MC is not and will never be a # 1-2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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