Proposed Deal from a Cubbune Writer..

[BrandoFan]

This wouldn't necessarily be an awful deal if the Sox got a good prospect in return as well as utilized the financial flexibility by making another trade, maybe even going after a bigger fish like Carlos Beltran.

There will not be a Beltran.

 

He wants 8/140

 

Sox can barely pay HALF of that.

[israel4ever]

The trade is stupid!

 

Corey Patterson sucks, and we can get Clement during the off season via free agency, if we want him!

[whitesox61382]

He is 30.

 

He is a two-pitch pitcher with a fastball topping out at 91-92 in last couple of years.

 

There is always a concern about that slider ruining his arm, Jon Lieber style.

 

His back and groin seem to be recurring every other year.

 

He will be FA after 2004.  Makes 6 Mill this year.

 

Career ERA of 4.30 (league average was 4.20)

 

Career WHIP of 1.40

 

Pitched in Qualcomm, Pro Player and Wrigley - all either neutral or pitcher's parks.

 

 

This great start certainly raises his value, but MC is not and will never be a # 1-2.

Lets get a few things straight. Clement is 29 and not 30. Either way he is still in the prime of his career, so what is the point that you are trying to make? Is this a poor attempt to find something wrong with Clement, because thats what it appears to be.

 

He is a two pitch pitcher, but so are many starters. Johnson and Clemens are just two examples of 2 pitch pitchers, and they have been the 2 most dominating pitchers in this era, so once again what is your point? Clements slider is rated as one of the top 5 sliders in the game, and for the record his fastball is almost always in the mid 90's. In fact I can't remember the last time I saw his fastball consistantly in the low 90's and I watch a ton of Cubs games(I hate to admit that, but living in Arizona I only get WGN and love to watch baseball). When you have an above average fastball and a GREAT secondary pitch, than you don't need a 3rd or 4th pitch. I think an arguement can be made that most starters would be better off throwing 2 pitches(a fastball and their top offspeed pitch). How many times does a pitcher get beat on his 3rd or 4th best pitch? Once again a poor attempt on your behalf to find a flaw in Clement.

 

There is always concerns about a pitcher getting hurt, and sliders do put a lot of stress on a pitchers arm, but you can't let that prevent you from making a move. RJohnson throws a slider and has almost never had arm problems. Some pitchers arms are made to endure more pain, and Clement has never had arm problems(5 straight seasons with 30+ starts).

 

His back and groin? Now you are really grasping at straws. He has had 30+ starts the past 5 seasons, so quit with this BS injury stuff. He has been one of the most healthiest pitchers in the game over the past half decade.

 

He will be a FA this year, but so will most of the pitchers that the Sox are targeting. Furthermore, if the Sox were to trade Maggs for Clement, than they would save 8M. Chances are that Clement would cost less than 14M to sign, so I think you can make an arguement that Clement would be easier to sign, wouldn't take up as much of the payroll as Maggs, and addresses a bigger weakness(a top or the rotation starter is harder to find than a power hitting corner outfielder, especially with the Sox system staked with outfield prospects). Furthermore, chances are that the Sox won't offer Maggs arbitration if he walks, which means no compensation picks. The Sox would most likely offer Clement arbitration since he would probably only get 8-10M. Who knows maybe he loves Chicago and will accept, but even if he doesn't the Sox would still get compensation picks for him.

 

Career ERA is not a useful stat in most cases. How does his ERA when he was an inexperienced 25-26 year old pitcher relate to him now? The answer, it doesn't. The fact of the matter is that his ERA over the past 2+ years(a much more accurate indication of how is pitching now) is 3.70, which is an ERA of a front of the rotation starter. Factor in that he averages 200+ innings, 12+ wins(the past 2 years), an opponent BA under .227, and roughly 8.5 SO per 9 innings, and you have yourself a front of the rotation pitcher. End of arguement.

 

Once again, you use career stats because you are grasping at straws. Everyone can see how flawed your arguement is and how career stats aren't a good indication of how a player is performing in the present(which is the only thing that matters). I don't know what you have against Clement. Maybe you hate every Cub no matter how good they are. Maybe Clement beat you up in high school. Maybe you just want to get an arguement with me. What ever your reasoning, you have presented an extremely flawed arguement. Few experts would agree with you that Clement IS NOT a front of the rotation starter. His WHIP the past 2+ years is a solid 1.25, add that to his his amazing opponents BA, low HR total, high SO total, 200+ IP, low opponent OPS, and double digit wins, and his peripheral are outstanding over the past couple of years and show that he is a top of the rotation starter.

 

This would be a great trade for the Sox in the short-term and long-term.

 

Short-term benefits

 

Adding Clement would give the Sox a front of the rotation starter(which they definately need) and give them one of the better rotations in baseball. While Patterson is overrated, his offensive dropoff from Maggs isn't THAT significant. Not to mention the fact that he improves the defense, adds more speed, and gives the Sox a lefty bat in the middle of the lineup. Losing Wunsch is no bigger with Cotts moving back to the bullpen. Clement + Patterson > Maggs + Wunsch. This move gives the Sox a better shot at winning this year.

 

Long-term benefits

 

Maggs and Wunsch are probably gone after this season with nothing to show for them. While Clement is a FA the Sox chances of signing him would probably be better than signing Maggs since he will probably cost 2-4M less to sign. Furthermore, as mentioned above the Sox would almost certainly offer Clement arbitation, which can't be said about Maggs, so even if Clement were to sign with someone else they would likely get compensation picks. The Sox would also have Patterson in CF for the next couple of years. Like I mentioned before, he isn't far off from a .280/20/80 20 SB 30 2B season with very good D in CF. He has also made some strides to improve his BB total. He is relatively cheap over the next couple of years as well. So lets review: Patterson + compensation picks > nothing.

 

This trade improves the team in the short-term and long-term. It also hurts the Cubs, which is always a good thing. They will be stuck with 3 corner outfielders making up one of the worst defensive outfielders. They will make their already right handed dominated lineup even more right handed dominated. They will trade away their best pitcher at this point(Clement or Zambrano), and with the health of Wood and Prior in the air that isn't a smart move. The Cubs won't likely be able to keep Maggs with Sosa getting 17M next year, Alou with an option for 11.5M next year, and Wood a FA(their top priority assuming he is healthy).

 

It is a win-win-win situation. Now if only the Cubs were stupid enough to make that move.

[BrandoFan]

Lets get a few things straight. Clement is 29 and not 30. Either way he is still in the prime of his career, so what is the point that you are trying to make? Is this a poor attempt to find something wrong with Clement, because thats what it appears to be.

 

He is a two pitch pitcher, but so are many starters. Johnson and Clemens are just two examples of 2 pitch pitchers, and they have been the 2 most dominating pitchers in this era, so once again what is your point? Clements slider is rated as one of the top 5 sliders in the game, and for the record his fastball is almost always in the mid 90's. In fact I can't remember the last time I saw his fastball consistantly in the low 90's and I watch a ton of Cubs games(I hate to admit that, but living in Arizona I only get WGN and love to watch baseball). When you have an above average fastball and a GREAT secondary pitch, than you don't need a 3rd or 4th pitch. I think an arguement can be made that most starters would be better off throwing 2 pitches(a fastball and their top offspeed pitch). How many times does a pitcher get beat on his 3rd or 4th best pitch? Once again a poor attempt on your behalf to find a flaw in Clement.

 

There is always concerns about a pitcher getting hurt, and sliders do put a lot of stress on a pitchers arm, but you can't let that prevent you from making a move. RJohnson throws a slider and has almost never had arm problems. Some pitchers arms are made to endure more pain, and Clement has never had arm problems(5 straight seasons with 30+ starts).

 

His back and groin? Now you are really grasping at straws. He has had 30+ starts the past 5 seasons, so quit with this BS injury stuff. He has been one of the most healthiest pitchers in the game over the past half decade.

 

He will be a FA this year, but so will most of the pitchers that the Sox are targeting. Furthermore, if the Sox were to trade Maggs for Clement, than they would save 8M. Chances are that Clement would cost less than 14M to sign, so I think you can make an arguement that Clement would be easier to sign, wouldn't take up as much of the payroll as Maggs, and addresses a bigger weakness(a top or the rotation starter is harder to find than a power hitting corner outfielder, especially with the Sox system staked with outfield prospects). Furthermore, chances are that the Sox won't offer Maggs arbitration if he walks, which means no compensation picks. The Sox would most likely offer Clement arbitration since he would probably only get 8-10M. Who knows maybe he loves Chicago and will accept, but even if he doesn't the Sox would still get compensation picks for him.

 

Career ERA is not a useful stat in most cases. How does his ERA when he was an inexperienced 25-26 year old pitcher relate to him now? The answer, it doesn't. The fact of the matter is that his ERA over the past 2+ years(a much more accurate indication of how is pitching now) is 3.70, which is an ERA of a front of the rotation starter. Factor in that he averages 200+ innings, 12+ wins(the past 2 years), an opponent BA under .227, and roughly 8.5 SO per 9 innings, and you have yourself a front of the rotation pitcher. End of arguement.

 

Once again, you use career stats because you are grasping at straws. Everyone can see how flawed your arguement is and how career stats aren't a good indication of how a player is performing in the present(which is the only thing that matters). I don't know what you have against Clement. Maybe you hate every Cub no matter how good they are. Maybe Clement beat you up in high school. Maybe you just want to get an arguement with me. What ever your reasoning, you have presented an extremely flawed arguement. Few experts would agree with you that Clement IS NOT a front of the rotation starter. His WHIP the past 2+ years is a solid 1.25, add that to his his amazing opponents BA, low HR total, high SO total, 200+ IP, low opponent OPS, and double digit wins, and his peripheral are outstanding over the past couple of years and show that he is a top of the rotation starter.

 

This would be a great trade for the Sox in the short-term and long-term.

 

Short-term benefits

 

Adding Clement would give the Sox a front of the rotation starter(which they definately need) and give them one of the better rotations in baseball. While Patterson is overrated, his offensive dropoff from Maggs isn't THAT significant. Not to mention the fact that he improves the defense, adds more speed, and gives the Sox a lefty bat in the middle of the lineup. Losing Wunsch is no bigger with Cotts moving back to the bullpen. Clement + Patterson > Maggs + Wunsch. This move gives the Sox a better shot at winning this year.

 

Long-term benefits

 

Maggs and Wunsch are probably gone after this season with nothing to show for them. While Clement is a FA the Sox chances of signing him would probably be better than signing Maggs since he will probably cost 2-4M less to sign. Furthermore, as mentioned above the Sox would almost certainly offer Clement arbitation, which can't be said about Maggs, so even if Clement were to sign with someone else they would likely get compensation picks. The Sox would also have Patterson in CF for the next couple of years. Like I mentioned before, he isn't far off from a .280/20/80 20 SB 30 2B season with very good D in CF. He has also made some strides to improve his BB total. He is relatively cheap over the next couple of years as well. So lets review: Patterson + compensation picks > nothing.

 

This trade improves the team in the short-term and long-term. It also hurts the Cubs, which is always a good thing. They will be stuck with 3 corner outfielders making up one of the worst defensive outfielders. They will make their already right handed dominated lineup even more right handed dominated. They will trade away their best pitcher at this point(Clement or Zambrano), and with the health of Wood and Prior in the air that isn't a smart move. The Cubs won't likely be able to keep Maggs with Sosa getting 17M next year, Alou with an option for 11.5M next year, and Wood a FA(their top priority assuming he is healthy).

 

It is a win-win-win situation. Now if only the Cubs were stupid enough to make that move.

 

Unit, Rocket, Clement...hmm, something is not like the other.

 

Clement "consistently in mid-90s".........Sure buddy, keep on BS-ing - I actually see Cub games on both WCIU ana WGN - he hasn't consistently hit 93 since 2002. Most scouting reports had him in 90-93 zone last year - and after a disasterous Spring Training, he hasn't been throwing a four-seamer at all, instead preferring the 90-91 sinker that he can also tail. Not that it makes any difference, just get it right.

 

I also know you haven't watched a single game in 2003, because he's been having a tender groin (which thankfully for the Cubs stopped just short of Roy Oswaltitis but could flare up in the future) -- in fact they mentioned it on the air numerous times while he was LIMPING into the dugout after each inning. His back has been a concern since forever - although to be fair it hasn't sidelined him yet. As you get into your 30's, the nagging ailments are that much harder to overcome. Bartolo Colon is beginning to find that out, for instance.

 

Put him in AL, and he is a 4.00 ERA pitcher. Would be a #2 or a #3 on this Sox team, but won't be a difference maker, not even close. Last year, only a rain-out in May (Cardinals were tagging him for 7 runs in first 3 innings before the game was called) kept his ERA from going over 4.20 -- in a pitcher neutral Wrigley Field, in NL where you have a pitcher batting no less!

 

I could care less about compensation picks, it's win now, now, now with this frtanchise - losing Maggs to a cross town rival? Niiice....Sure they will re-sign him -- A-Gone is off the books, and so will be Alou. Magglio will look nice in Cubbie blue. A PR nightmare - especially if Sox don't make the playoffs and Cubs do in 2004......Patterson is talented but this year he is just bad. His defense is "very good"? Are you blind? Bad jumps and a weak arm, something that even his speed can't make up for. No better than Aaron. And as long as he continues overswinging and uppercutting, he will never come close to 800 OPS, not in 2004 or 2005 anyway.

 

I remember you telling me how Konerko is worth as much as Odalis Perez. I told you what I saw of him and that he was poised for a break-out despite lousy stats in 2003. How's Odalis doing now?

 

Don't be fooled by a great start. Clement won't have a sub-3.75 ERA in the NL this year, mark it down - that is if he doesn't go down with a f***ed elbow courtesy of one too many tantalizing sliders.

 

Just watch, all the way from Arizona.

[Chisoxfn]

Umm Brando, Perez has arguably been the best starter in the DOdgers rotation. He's been very impressive with a 3.32 ERA.

 

I was a big proponent of getting Odalis and its looking like he would of been a very good pickup.

[Rowand44]

Umm Brando, Perez has arguably been the best starter in the DOdgers rotation.  He's been very impressive with a 3.32 ERA. 

 

I was a big proponent of getting Odalis and its looking like he would of been a very good pickup.

I think that's what he's trying to say that odalis has been good.

[BrandoFan]

Umm Brando, Perez has arguably been the best starter in the DOdgers rotation.  He's been very impressive with a 3.32 ERA. 

 

I was a big proponent of getting Odalis and its looking like he would of been a very good pickup.

Jason, I was the one arguing FOR Perez, not the other way around.

 

With Clement, it's the opposite - after a stellar 2002, I expected him to fall back down to earth, regardless of his excellent peripherals.

 

He is not an ace and never will be. You'll see.

[Chisoxfn]

Jason, I was the one arguing FOR Perez, not the other way around.

 

With Clement, it's the opposite - after a stellar 2002, I expected him to fall back down to earth. He is not an ace and never will be. You'll see.

Lol Brando, I'm so used to debating you that I forget we actually agreed for once on Perez.

 

I think me and you were his two biggest backers

[BrandoFan]

Lol Brando, I'm so used to debating you that I forget we actually agreed for once on Perez. 

 

I think me and you were his two biggest backers 

Whatever doubts anyone had, they were dispelled during his unbelievable showing in Spring Training.

 

Sometimes you just have to watch a pitcher, stats be damned...Did I mention Clement is due for a major cool-off?

[Chisoxfn]

Whatever doubts anyone had, they were dispelled during his unbelievable showing in Spring Training.

 

Sometimes you just have to watch a pitcher, stats be damned...Did I mention Clement is due for a major cool-off?

I'd agree with you that Clement isn't as good as he is pitching although I would say that you could debate the fact that Clement does posess front of the rotation stuff. His slider is sick and his fastball/sinker has good life on it.

 

Even though he's a two pitch pitcher, both of his pitches are excellent and are tough to get hit hard. He isn't a #1, but I think he's a good #2. I also don't see the Cubs giving him up, although their has been a lot of speculation (especially early in the year) that the Cubs would be willing to deal him. That was before Wood and Prior went down though.

[BrandoFan]

I'd agree with you that Clement isn't as good as he is pitching although I would say that you could debate the fact that Clement does posess front of the rotation stuff.  His slider is sick and his fastball/sinker has good life on it. 

 

Even though he's a two pitch pitcher, both of his pitches are excellent and are tough to get hit hard.  He isn't a #1, but I think he's a good #2.  I also don't see the Cubs giving him up, although their has been a lot of speculation (especially early in the year) that the Cubs would be willing to deal him.  That was before Wood and Prior went down though.

Of course he has good stuff - otherwise we wouldn't even be having a debate about it. His 2002 was very good - then he could reach 93-95. But then he regressed in 2003 - again, he was a Cardinal game rain-out away from his career ERA average. Far from spectacular, despite his good peripherals.

 

Of course Sox can't re-sign Maggs, but this season is a MUST win and the ONLY way you give him up to the Cubs is for Zambrano or Prior, which Cubs would will never do.

 

Patterson is all potential; expecting him to excel (800 OPS? Sure )in the next 2 years is silly and it's a chance Sox simply cannot take. Even before his knee-tear, his OBP was dropping fast. In effect, he had only 1 really good month in 2003 - so did Jimenez, btw.

 

Clement IMO is a 4.00 ERA pitcher in AL. That's not enough to lead the team into postseason, far from it.

 

This trade is not nearly as 1-sided as WS0682 claims. There are serious downsides - and compensation draft picks wouldn't begin to, well, "compensate" for the brewing disaster of Sox missing playoffs and Magglio possibly winning the World Series as a Cub in 2004

 

And I still think Clement is a health risk, call it a hunch.

[Soxfest]

Cubbune with a stupid ass trade offer. :fthecubs :fthecubs

[Chisoxfn]

OH I agree, I think the deal makes sense from both sides to a point. However, I don't quite see how Maggs fits in, even if he is capable of playing CF.

 

But it was basically a pretend trade just to get people interested. Obviously the writer did his job cause we've definately had some good debate in the thread

[Rowand44]

Of course he has good stuff - otherwise we wouldn't even be having a debate about it. His 2002 was very good - then he could reach 93-95. But then he regressed in 2003 - again, he was a Cardinal game rain-out away from his career ERA average.  Far from spectacular, despite his good peripherals.

 

Of course Sox can't re-sign Maggs, but this season is a MUST win and the ONLY way you give him up to the Cubs is for Zambrano or Prior, which Cubs would will never do.

 

Patterson is all potential; expecting him to excel (800 OPS? Sure )in the next 2 years is silly and it's a chance Sox simply cannot take. Even before his knee-tear, his OBP was dropping fast.  In effect, he had only 1 really good month in 2003 - so did Jimenez, btw.   

 

Clement IMO is a 4.00 ERA pitcher in AL. That's not enough to lead the team into postseason, far from it.

 

This trade is not nearly as 1-sided as WS0682 claims.    There are serious downsides - and compensation draft picks wouldn't begin to, well,  "compensate" for the brewing disaster of Sox missing playoffs and Magglio possibly winning the World Series as a Cub in 2004

 

And I still think is a health risk, call it a hunch.

WOW, I find myself agreeing with you more lately brando. Anyways I doubt either side would do this. I'm just not sure if Maggs could play cf full time and while clement has been solid, he's been very inconsistant over his career and is definitely a health concern. Now if it were Zambrano instead of Clement I'd do that deal in a heartbeat but that obviously would never happen but either would this proposed trade.

[Chisoxfn]

Man, what I'd give to get Zambrono. Zambrono is a freaking stud.

[Rowand44]

Man, what I'd give to get Zambrono.  Zambrono is a freaking stud.

Yes he is, he's better then Kerry Wood by far imo.

[BrandoFan]

Anyways I doubt either side would do this

 

Ther are too many variables, and it can go either direction, so RISK management is also important.

 

What if Sosa's back doesn't heal? They could use Maggs.

 

But what if Clement is the real deal?

 

But what if Prior and Wood both come back healthy, thus rendering Clement expendable?

 

But what if Patterson is a bust?

 

But what if Kelly Wunsch holds the opponents to 140 BA in 50+ innings?

 

But what if Magglio is ready to break out for a 150 RBI/1100 OPS season?

 

But what if there will be a HUMONGOUS fan backlash, which will exacerbated if Sox godforbid fail to reach postseason, esp if Clement is anything but stellar?

 

And many others.....

[Rowand44]

Ther are too many variables, and it can go either direction, so RISK management is also important.

 

What if Sosa's back doesn't heal? They could use Maggs.

 

But what if Clement is the real deal?

 

But what if Prior and Wood both come back healthy, thus rendering Clement expendable?

 

But what if Patterson is a bust?

 

But what if Kelly Wunsch holds the opponents to 140 BA in 50+ innings?

 

But what if Magglio is ready to break out for a 150 RBI/1100 OPS season?

 

But what if there will be a HUMONGOUS fan backlash, which will exacerbated  if Sox godforbid fail to reach postseason, esp if Clement is anything but stellar?

 

And many others.....

Haha Brando way to confuse the hell out of me. But I do understand what your saying there is so many different things that could happen to make either team pull the trigger or not pull the trigger, jeez couldn't you just say it like that.

[whitesox61382]

Unit, Rocket, Clement...hmm, something is not like the other.

 

Clement "consistently in mid-90s".........Sure buddy, keep on BS-ing - I actually see Cub games on both WCIU ana WGN - he hasn't consistently hit 93 since 2002. Most scouting reports had him in 90-93 zone last year - and after a disasterous Spring Training, he hasn't been throwing a four-seamer at all, instead preferring the 90-91 sinker that he can also tail.    Not that it makes any difference, just get it right.

 

I also know you haven't watched a single game in 2003, because he's been having a tender groin (which thankfully for the Cubs stopped just short of Roy Oswaltitis but could flare up in the future) -- in fact they mentioned it on the air numerous times while he was LIMPING into the dugout after each inning.       His back has been a concern since forever - although to be fair it hasn't sidelined him yet.    As you get into your 30's, the nagging ailments are that much harder to overcome. Bartolo Colon is beginning to find that out, for instance.

 

Put him in AL, and he is a 4.00 ERA pitcher. Would be a #2 or a #3 on this Sox team, but won't be a difference maker, not even close. Last year, only a rain-out in May  (Cardinals were tagging him for 7 runs in first 3 innings before the game was called)  kept his ERA from going over 4.20 -- in a pitcher neutral Wrigley Field, in NL where you have a pitcher batting no less!

 

I could care less about compensation picks, it's win now, now, now with this frtanchise -  losing Maggs to a cross town rival? Niiice....Sure they will re-sign him -- A-Gone is off the books, and so will be Alou.    Magglio will look nice in Cubbie blue. A PR nightmare - especially if Sox don't make the playoffs and Cubs do in 2004......Patterson is talented but this year he is just bad. His defense is "very good"? Are you blind? Bad jumps and a weak arm, something that even his speed can't make up for. No better than Aaron.    And as long as he continues overswinging and uppercutting, he will never come close to 800 OPS, not in 2004 or 2005 anyway.

 

I remember you telling me how Konerko is worth as much as Odalis Perez.  I told you what I saw of him and that he was poised for a break-out despite lousy stats in 2003.    How's Odalis doing now?   

 

Don't be fooled by a great start. Clement won't have a sub-3.75 ERA in the NL this year, mark it down - that is if he doesn't go down with a f***ed elbow courtesy of one too many tantalizing sliders.

 

Just watch, all the way from Arizona. 

The only reason why I brought up Johnson and Clemens was to show you that 2 above average pitches are more than enough, and Clement has 2 above average pitches. So listing that as a flaw is a clear case of you grasping at straws in a weak attempt to prove a point. Nice try.

 

Here is an unbias source: "Along with a sinking fastball in the low 90s and a terrific hard slider, he mixes in a few four-seamers and changeups." His sinker is in the low 90's and his four-seam fastball is generally in the 92-94 range. I have consistantly seen him in the 92-94 range over the past couple of years. Either way, the point is that he has an above average fastball(both velocity and movement wise) and a GREAT slider.

 

What does watching a game have to do with his groin? I watch about 100 Cubs game a year(WGN, ESPN, TBS, and games against the D-Backs), and I can't remember them mentionin a groin injury. The point is that he still made 32 starts and has 5 straight seasons of 30+ starts, so playing the injury card is just another weak attempt of yours to find flaws when there are none to be found. Nice try. Comparing Colon's health/conditioning to Clement is almost as bad as me comparing Clement to Johnson or Clemens(although I wasn't comparing them from a numbers/career standpoint). Colon has 250+ lb on a 5'10 frame, while Clement has a perfect pitchers body(at 6'3 210 lb) and stays in pretty good shape.

 

How is a solid #2 starter not a difference maker? Please put down the crack pipe before you type. You realize that the Sox are handing away a game every 5th day with their #5 starter. Adding a solid #2 starter(which is what a high 3-low 4 ERA pitcher is today) would move everyone down a spot in the rotation and SIGNIFICANTLY improve the rotation. In the case that the Sox do make the playoffs, he would give the Sox a very good starter who is capable of winning a game by himself. How is that not a difference maker?

 

Its far from a guarantee that the Cubs would resign him. They have 17M locked up in Sammy, they have holes at CF, SS, 3B, C, CP, ect that need to be addressed, raises from Lee(7M; 2M increase), Wood(8.5M; 1.5M increase), Maddux(9M; 3M increase), Prior(?), ect. 14+M/yr for Maggs is not a guarantee.

 

Patterson's D is above average. Read a scouting report and watch some games. He has above average range and his great speed makes up for bad jumps. His arm isn't great, but it isn't terrible either. Patterson no where close to .800 OPS? Please tell me that you knew that he had a .840 OPS last year before getting hurt. As someone who has had 2 ACL surguries it takes more than a year before you are completely healthy and back to your old ways. Give him some time. I wouldn't be surprised if he has a very good 2nd half. Furthermore, are you suggesting that a 24 year old kid can't improve? He has already showed some minor improvements from a plate disipline standpoint. His power will come back, along with his speed. This kid isn't far from an .800+ season, and he has done it in the past. Might I suggest that you check the stats before you get punked again. Thanks for playing.

 

Perez has had a very good year, but just as pointed out for Clement, you have to adjust his stats for the AL and take him out of by far the best pitchers park in baseball. I would have liked to see Perez in a Sox uniform, but he is far from a proven player. Clement has posted 2 consecitive solid seasons and is adding another as we speak. That is called consistancy, which is something that Perez has yet to show(only 1 good season in his career).

 

I am going to hold you to that 3.75+ ERA prediction. Be prepared to eat some chow(nothing new for you).

[whitesox61382]

Of course he has good stuff - otherwise we wouldn't even be having a debate about it. His 2002 was very good - then he could reach 93-95. But then he regressed in 2003 - again, he was a Cardinal game rain-out away from his career ERA average.  Far from spectacular, despite his good peripherals.

 

Of course Sox can't re-sign Maggs, but this season is a MUST win and the ONLY way you give him up to the Cubs is for Zambrano or Prior, which Cubs would will never do.

 

Patterson is all potential; expecting him to excel (800 OPS? Sure )in the next 2 years is silly and it's a chance Sox simply cannot take. Even before his knee-tear, his OBP was dropping fast.  In effect, he had only 1 really good month in 2003 - so did Jimenez, btw.   

 

Clement IMO is a 4.00 ERA pitcher in AL. That's not enough to lead the team into postseason, far from it.

 

This trade is not nearly as 1-sided as WS0682 claims.    There are serious downsides - and compensation draft picks wouldn't begin to, well,  "compensate" for the brewing disaster of Sox missing playoffs and Magglio possibly winning the World Series as a Cub in 2004

 

And I still think Clement is a health risk, call it a hunch. 

Regressed isn't really the word I would use. His ERA only increased by .51, he actually won 2 more games, and his peripherals were still outstanding. He showed that his 2002 season wasn't a fluke and that he was establishing himself as a solid front of the rotation starter. He has only further prove that point this season.

 

This IS a must win season, and this trade IMPROVES the Sox chances of winning now. What has been this teams biggest weakness? The 5th starter by far. They have combined to post an 0-6 record, 28.2 IP, and a 9.73 ERA. How can you say that replacing those numbers with a 6-3 record, 60.1 IP, and a 2.69 ERA isn't a SIGNIFICANT improvement and drasticly increases the Sox chances of winning this year? The Sox would take an offensive hit by replacing Maggs with Patterson, but this lineup is good enough to make up for that. Plus Patterson does provide some improvements. Improved defense in the outfield, improved speed(more SB and fewer DP), and adds another lefty bat to the order. Besides, I truely believe that Patterson could have a good 2nd half considering that it normally takes 1 year to complete health from an ACL surgury. The point is that the improvement from Clement to the current group of 5th starters is great than the decrease that is likely from Maggs to Patterson. Therefore, this trade DOES improve the Sox chance of winning now. Not to mention the fact that Clement is capable of shuting down a team in the playoffs(something few of the Sox current starters are capable of). It is that simple. When you factor into the equation that this trade puts the Sox in better position in the future(with Patterson and compensation picks versus nothing), than it is a no-brainer. Improve the team now and in the future.

[BrandoFan]

The only reason why I brought up Johnson and Clemens was to show you that 2 above average pitches are more than enough, and Clement has 2 above average pitches. So listing that as a flaw is a clear case of you grasping at straws in a weak attempt to prove a point. Nice try.

 

Here is an unbias source: "Along with a sinking fastball in the low 90s and a terrific hard slider, he mixes in a few four-seamers and changeups." His sinker is in the low 90's and his four-seam fastball is generally in the 92-94 range. I have consistantly seen him in the 92-94 range over the past couple of years. Either way, the point is that he has an above average fastball(both velocity and movement wise) and a GREAT slider.

 

What does watching a game have to do with his groin? I watch about 100 Cubs game a year(WGN, ESPN, TBS, and games against the D-Backs), and I can't remember them mentionin a groin injury. The point is that he still made 32 starts and has 5 straight seasons of 30+ starts, so playing the injury card is just another weak attempt of yours to find flaws when there are none to be found. Nice try. Comparing Colon's health/conditioning to Clement is almost as bad as me comparing Clement to Johnson or Clemens(although I wasn't comparing them from a numbers/career standpoint). Colon has 250+ lb on a 5'10 frame, while Clement has a perfect pitchers body(at 6'3 210 lb) and stays in pretty good shape.

 

How is a solid #2 starter not a difference maker? Please put down the crack pipe before you type. You realize that the Sox are handing away a game every 5th day with their #5 starter. Adding a solid #2 starter(which is what a high 3-low 4 ERA pitcher is today) would move everyone down a spot in the rotation and SIGNIFICANTLY improve the rotation. In the case that the Sox do make the playoffs, he would give the Sox a very good starter who is capable of winning a game by himself. How is that not a difference maker?

 

Its far from a guarantee that the Cubs would resign him. They have 17M locked up in Sammy, they have holes at CF, SS, 3B, C, CP, ect that need to be addressed, raises from Lee(7M; 2M increase), Wood(8.5M; 1.5M increase), Maddux(9M; 3M increase), Prior(?), ect. 14+M/yr for Maggs is not a guarantee.

 

Patterson's D is above average. Read a scouting report and watch some games. He has above average range and his great speed makes up for bad jumps. His arm isn't great, but it isn't terrible either. Patterson no where close to .800 OPS? Please tell me that you knew that he had a .840 OPS last year before getting hurt. As someone who has had 2 ACL surguries it takes more than a year before you are completely healthy and back to your old ways. Give him some time. I wouldn't be surprised if he has a very good 2nd half. Furthermore, are you suggesting that a 24 year old kid can't improve? He has already showed some minor improvements from a plate disipline standpoint. His power will come back, along with his speed. This kid isn't far from an .800+ season, and he has done it in the past. Might I suggest that you check the stats before you get punked again. Thanks for playing.

 

Perez has had a very good year, but just as pointed out for Clement, you have to adjust his stats for the AL and take him out of by far the best pitchers park in baseball. I would have liked to see Perez in a Sox uniform, but he is far from a proven player. Clement has posted 2 consecitive solid seasons and is adding another as we speak. That is called consistancy, which is something that Perez has yet to show(only 1 good season in his career).

 

I am going to hold you to that 3.75+ ERA prediction. Be prepared to eat some chow(nothing new for you).

No, it's only enough when you have a fastball in the mid-upper 90's. I dare you to watch a Cub game next time and post as soon as you see a fastball exceeding 93 mph..........Also, his slider is indeed pretty devastating, but godforbid there is a slightest health problem (a tendonitis, a groin flare-up, nothing terrible), he won't have anything to fall back on. When his mechanics were altered/erratic, his slider was hanging and his contol deserted him - the very reasons why he struggled with SD and Florida. And while that could be said for a lot of power pitchers, I maintain that he is a higher health risk than most. You disagree, fine.

 

I won't argue with him having a "plus" fastball. But it's NO longer because of velocity but because of his slider, release point and movement. He hasn't come close to a 94 mph four seamer either during 2004 ST or regular season. This is in no way relevant to your core point, however, so I will agree to disagree.

 

It's funny that you claim you have seen 100+ games and yet you do not recall him LIMPING INTO THE DUGOUT AFTER EACH INNING FOR THE ENTIRE 2ND HALD OF 2003. Are you sure you've never heard "tender groin" mentioned at all? I bet most people reading this can back me up on this one......The point with Colon was that he was a power-pitching HORSE just like Clement. Suspect mechanics and work ethic. In his 20's, he could get away with his supposed back spasms, but now seeing him lose velocity and break, one begins to wonder if at 31, time is catching up to him.

 

Why wouldn't they re-sign him? Alou's 9.5 Mill is gone. A-Gone's 5.7 Mill is gone. Tribune is rolling with cash - especially if they go deep in the playoffs, they'll make a TON of dough. Signing Maggs is not only insurence against Sosa's age and back issues, but it is also a PR KNOCK-OUT punch to the rest of the Soxdom....But even if they don't re-sign him, the issue here is can Matt Clement be a dominant pitcher in the AL for the entire season to off-set the loss of Maggs, both from production and popularity standpoints. It's far from a sure thing, buddy.

 

Please, his speed is already back. Are you sure you are watching Cub games? He is almost as fast as ever -- and the only reason why he doesn't swipe bags is because 1) he fancies himself a #3 slugger as he admited on more than one occasion and 2) he is afraid of re-injuring himself, something that won't just go away after a few moths........Did you see his 2003 splits? His entire season was MAY - April and June and a little in July, he was the same selfish dumbass. Which is what he is now and has been prior to 2003. Do you even realize WHY his power is GONE this year - his flukey production against lefties notwithstanding? Because he SWINGS AT PITCHES EAR-HIGH -- not because his knee is hurting.

I simply do not trust him to "figure it out" at the plate this season...............Finally, his defense has definately been mediocre. Ask any Cub fan and they'll tell you that besides a couple of mental errors like throwing to the wrong base, he's misplayed a few singles into doubles, broke the wrong way on balls into the wind, let bloopers fall in, etc --- in other words how is this different from what you would get from another overrated fielder, Aaron Rowand?

 

Even if you forget that he was bailed out by rain in the Card shellacking last year....He was anything BUT stellar. Just an average pitcher once you adjust for Park Factor. Peripherals are nice and all, but your job is ultimately to prevent runs. So, no, a 2003 Clement is not worth the "very good #2" hype.

 

Crow? Pot kettle.

[YASNY]

I'd make this trade. Clement is not a top of the rotation pitcher, but he's solid. Patterson is solid also and should only get better. I don't think this trade would hurt the overall strength of the White Sox this year, but I believe it would benefit the team in the long run.

[BrandoFan]

You realize that the Sox are handing away a game every 5th day with their #5 starter.

 

Yes, I do.

 

Which doesn't mean I think giving up a good, cheap reliever and a perennial All-Star/fan favorite/face of the franchise to the team's archest rival in return for what I consider to be a 4.00 ERA pitcher in AL, one who has only had one truly good year in his career and who throws an extremely arm-taxing trick slider.....is an ideal remedy for this problem.

 

Sox have prospects. Use them. Get a legitimate ace pitcher and solve two needs at once.

 

In the case that the Sox do make the playoffs, he would give the Sox a very good starter who is capable of winning a game by himself. How is that not a difference maker?

 

I remember his difference maker-ness in 2003 playoffs: despite having a couple of spectacular defensive plays made behind him (by A-Gone and Lofton) that saved runs, he still managed the ever so stellar 5.11 ERA. Thankfully, Cubs had Wood and Prior.

[whitesox61382]

No, it's only enough when you have a fastball in the mid-upper 90's.    I dare you to watch a Cub game next time and post as soon as you see a fastball exceeding 93 mph..........Also, his slider is indeed pretty devastating, but godforbid there is a slightest health problem (a tendonitis, a groin flare-up, nothing terrible), he won't have anything to fall back on. When his mechanics were altered/erratic, his slider was hanging and his contol deserted him - the very reasons why he struggled with SD and Florida. And while that could be said for a lot of power pitchers, I maintain that he is a higher health risk than most.    You disagree, fine.

 

I won't argue with him having a "plus" fastball. But it's NO longer because of velocity but because of his slider, release point and movement. He hasn't come close to a 94 mph four seamer either during 2004 ST or regular season. This is in no way relevant to your core point, however, so I will agree to disagree.

 

It's funny that you claim you have seen 100+ games and yet you do not recall him LIMPING INTO THE DUGOUT AFTER EACH INNING FOR THE ENTIRE 2ND HALD OF 2003. Are you sure you've never heard "tender groin" mentioned at all? I bet most people reading this can back me up on this one......The point with Colon was that he was a power-pitching HORSE just like Clement.  Suspect mechanics and work ethic.    In his 20's, he could get away with his supposed back spasms, but now seeing him lose velocity and break, one begins to wonder if at 31, time is catching up to him.   

 

Why wouldn't they re-sign him? Alou's 9.5 Mill is gone. A-Gone's 5.7 Mill is gone.    Tribune is rolling with cash - especially if they go deep in the playoffs, they'll make a TON of dough.    Signing Maggs is not only insurence against Sosa's age and back issues, but it is also a PR KNOCK-OUT punch to the rest of the Soxdom....But even if they don't re-sign him, the issue here is can Matt Clement be a dominant pitcher in the AL for the entire season to off-set the loss of Maggs, both from production and popularity standpoints.  It's far from a sure thing, buddy.

 

Please, his speed is already back. Are you sure you are watching Cub games? He is  almost as fast as ever -- and the only reason why he doesn't swipe bags is because 1) he fancies himself a #3 slugger as he admited on more than one occasion and 2) he is afraid of re-injuring himself, something that won't just go away after a few moths........Did you see his 2003 splits? His entire season was MAY - April and June and a little in July, he was the same selfish dumbass.    Which is what he is now and has been prior to 2003.  Do you even realize WHY his power is GONE this year - his flukey production against lefties notwithstanding? Because he SWINGS AT PITCHES EAR-HIGH -- not because his knee is hurting. 

I simply do not trust him to "figure it out"  at the plate this season...............Finally, his defense has definately been mediocre.    Ask any Cub fan and they'll tell you that besides a couple of mental errors like throwing to the wrong base, he's misplayed a few singles into doubles, broke the wrong way on balls into the wind, let bloopers fall in, etc --- in other words how is this different from what you would get from another overrated fielder, Aaron Rowand? 

 

Even if you forget that he was bailed out by rain in the Card shellacking last year....He was anything BUT stellar. Just an average pitcher once you adjust for Park Factor. Peripherals are nice and all, but your job is ultimately to prevent runs.    So, no, a 2003 Clement is not worth the "very good #2" hype.

 

Crow? Pot kettle.

Brando, arguing with you is like arguing with a 5 year old kid and your wife combined. You never admit it when you are wrong no matter how much stats/information/facts are presented against, and the fact that almost all your information is backed by pure speculation instead of hard facts. That makes for a weak arguement on your behalf.

 

I don't need to watch another game this season in order to show you that he has reached 93 mph, because he has done it on multiple occasions this season. I honestly think you are the one that needs to watch the games more carefully and understand that the little number in the top corner is the speed of the pitcher, because on numerous games he has reached the 93 mph mark. Furthermore, the main point is that his fastball is still a plus pitch, which few knowledgible baseball fans would disagree with.

 

Health problem...Health problem...Health problem....PURE SPECULATION...PURE SPECULATION...PURE SPECULATION. The guy has no history of arm problems yet you routinely bring up his health. Sure there is the chance that he could get hurt, but you can say that with EVERY pitcher in the game, so quit using it as a flaw. What percentage of major league pitchers have had at least 1 major arm/shoulder/elbow surgury in the past 5 years? Yet you consider him a health concern. I am sorry but your hunch/speculation holds no water against hard stats(5 straight seasons of 30+ starters and no major surgury). I hope that you aren't a defense lawyer, because everyone of your clinents would be in jail if you tried to defend them with a hunch against the prosecusion who uses facts.

 

Once again, his perfermance in San Diego and Florida has almost no relevance. Its funny how I brought up how flawed drawing comparisons based on career stats are, and you never mention them again. The fact of the matter is that he has posted two solid seasons with great peripherals(which indicate staying power). He simple isn't the same pitcher now. It would be like using Randy Johnson's early control problem seasons in Seattle to indicate how he is pitching now. It has no relevance, and is a clear case of your grasping at straws to find flaws. Everyone can see that in your arguement except you.

 

You are stupid if you think that every telecast shows Clement limping to the dugout. For starters, the telecast rarely shows a pitcher walking to the dugout. Secondly, it is nearly impossible to tell if a player is limping, and what the causes might be if he is. Your now that he has no history of health problems, so you try and make this weak arguement hold water, but I am not going to buy your BS. You can't use health problems as a flaw considering that he has been one of the most healthiest pitchers in the game over the past 5 years. End of arguement.

 

Clement and Colon don't have much in common. Clement is long and skinny with a perfect pitchers body. While Colon is fat and short with a less than ideal pitchers body. Clement has never had more than 205 inning pitched in a season and only averages 97 pitches per start over his career. While Colon has exceeded the 220 innings pitched mark in each of the past 3 seasons and averages over 105 pitches per start over his career. Clements mechanics aren't flawed, neither are Colons for the most part. Comparing their work ethics is like comparing Harris and Konerko from a speed standpoint. The fact of the matter is that Clement and Colon have little in common, and Colon is far more likely to struggle/get hurt because of his work load/poor conditioning. Once again a pathetic attempt on your behalf to make your weak health concern arguement stick. You are going to have to come stronger than that if you want to battle the big boys.

 

I hope that the Cubs try and resign Maggs, because that would mean they would have over 55M tied up in 5 players with a ton of holes left to address. Even the Cubs have limits to their spend power, and history has shown that tying up large portions of the payroll in a few players is the recipe for failure.

 

Clement doesn't have to be dominating for him to offset Maggs offensive lose. IF Clement comes to the Sox and posts 10+ wins, 4.00 ERA, and 150 IP, compared to the godawful stats that the current 5th starters are averaging, than the 150 point OPS drop(potentially less) from Maggs to Patterson is more than offset(not to mention the improvements that Patterson brings from a speed and defense perspective). Clement has a pretty big following on the northside, and winning is the #1 recipe for drawing fans, so there is no concern in that area.

 

You are just going to have to take the word of a college athlete who has come back from 2 ACL surguries. It take at least 1 full year to fully recover and get back to top form. It is no coincidence that most pro athletes don't get back to the career averages until the 2nd full season back from the surgury. Take it from me, he is not 100% all the way back to his full speed, yet he still has above average speed(both defensively and on the base pads). You need to look at his splits more carefully. He did have a great May, but he was still consistant in April and June where he posted respectable high .700 OPSs. That is pretty consistant if you ask me. Check out most hitters splits and you will see that they usually have 1 or 2 good months that stand out. The great thing about the overall numbers is that it equally measures the good and the bad, and in the end Patterson had a .840 OPS, which shows that he has the potential to be an .800 OPS guy. Furthermore, the guy is only 24 for pete sakes. Are you saying that he has reached his peek and has no room for improvement? Most 24 year olds are in their 1st season in the majors. He has the skills to be a very good player and has plenty of room for improvement. His power isn't gone either. He has 14 extra base hits so far, which is only 3 less than the great Maggs, 1 less than CLee, the same as Konerko, and more than Crede for comparison, so how has his power completely left him. Furthermore, how has his power reached a peek when he isn't fully healthy(over 1 year to recover fom ACL surgury) and he is only 24.

 

Will you quit with the Cards rainout? You know that you are desperate when you have to fall back on adding games that didn't count. His 2003 ERA was within .20(which is almost the difference in one game as you continue to point out with your Cards example) of pitchers like Russ Ortiz(20 game winner), Hampton, Maddux, Leiter, Millwood, and Eaton. It was better than pitchers like Peavy, Penny, Wade Miller, Lawrence, Wolf, Sheets, Perez, and Glavine. I would say that most of the pitchers listed away are considered front of the rotation starters. Furthermore, the league average for NL starters last year was in the 4.50-4.60 range(middle of the rotation starter), so Clements 4.11 ERA was well average the league average(solid #2 starter). The stats severely hurt you arguement.

 

Thanks for playing, and I will continue to pick apart your weak arguements. Might I suggest that you use stats/information/sources/facts to back up your arguements instead of pure speculation. It makes for a stronger arguement.

[BrandoFan]

Brando, arguing with you is like arguing with a 5 year old kid and your wife combined. You never admit it when you are wrong no matter how much stats/information/facts are presented against, and the fact that almost all your information is backed by pure speculation instead of hard facts. That makes for a weak arguement  on your behalf.

 

I don't need to watch another game this season in order to show you that he has reached 93 mph, because he has done it on multiple occasions this season. I honestly think you are the one that needs to watch the games more carefully and understand that the little number in the top corner is the speed of the pitcher, because on numerous games he has reached the 93 mph mark. Furthermore, the main point is that his fastball is still a plus pitch, which few knowledgible baseball fans would disagree with.

 

Health problem...Health problem...Health problem....PURE SPECULATION...PURE SPECULATION...PURE SPECULATION. The guy has no history of arm problems yet you routinely bring up his health. Sure there is the chance that he could get hurt, but you can say that with EVERY pitcher in the game, so quit using it as a flaw. What percentage of major league pitchers have had at least 1 major arm/shoulder/elbow surgury in the past 5 years? Yet you consider him a health concern. I am sorry but your hunch/speculation holds no water against hard stats(5 straight seasons of 30+ starters and no major surgury). I hope that you aren't a defense lawyer, because everyone of your clinents would be in jail if you tried to defend them with a hunch against the prosecusion who uses facts.

 

Once again, his perfermance in San Diego and Florida has almost no relevance. Its funny how I brought up how flawed drawing comparisons based on career stats are, and you never mention them again. The fact of the matter is that he has posted two solid seasons with great peripherals(which indicate staying power). He simple isn't the same pitcher now. It would be like using Randy Johnson's early control problem seasons in Seattle to indicate how he is pitching now. It has no relevance, and is a clear case of your grasping at straws to find flaws. Everyone can see that in your arguement except you.

 

You are stupid if you think that every telecast shows Clement limping to the dugout. For starters, the telecast rarely shows a pitcher walking to the dugout. Secondly, it is nearly impossible to tell if a player is limping, and what the causes might be if he is. Your now that he has no history of health problems, so you try and make this weak arguement hold water, but I am not going to buy your BS. You can't use health problems as a flaw considering that he has been one of the most healthiest pitchers in the game over the past 5 years. End of arguement.

 

Clement and Colon don't have much in common. Clement is long and skinny with a perfect pitchers body. While Colon is fat and short with a less than ideal pitchers body. Clement has never had more than 205 inning pitched in a season and only averages 97 pitches per start over his career. While Colon has exceeded the 220 innings pitched mark in each of the past 3 seasons and averages over 105 pitches per start over his career. Clements mechanics aren't flawed, neither are Colons for the most part. Comparing their work ethics is like comparing Harris and Konerko from a speed standpoint. The fact of the matter is that Clement and Colon have little in common, and Colon is far more likely to struggle/get hurt because of his work load/poor conditioning. Once again a pathetic attempt on your behalf to make your weak health concern arguement stick. You are going to have to come stronger than that if you want to battle the big boys.

 

I hope that the Cubs try and resign Maggs, because that would mean they would have over 55M tied up in 5 players with a ton of holes left to address. Even the Cubs have limits to their spend power, and history has shown that tying up large portions of the payroll in a few players is the recipe for failure.

 

Clement doesn't have to be dominating for him to offset Maggs offensive lose. IF Clement comes to the Sox and posts 10+ wins, 4.00 ERA, and 150 IP, compared to the godawful stats that the current 5th starters are averaging, than the 150 point OPS drop(potentially less) from Maggs to Patterson is more than offset(not to mention the improvements that Patterson brings from a speed and defense perspective). Clement has a pretty big following on the northside, and winning is the #1 recipe for drawing fans, so there is no concern in that area.

 

You are just going to have to take the word of a college athlete who has come back from 2 ACL surguries. It take at least 1 full year to fully recover and get back to top form. It is no coincidence that most pro athletes don't get back to the career averages until the 2nd full season back from the surgury. Take it from me, he is not 100% all the way back to his full speed, yet he still has above average speed(both defensively and on the base pads). You need to look at his splits more carefully. He did have a great May, but he was still consistant in April and June where he posted respectable high .700 OPSs. That is pretty consistant if you ask me. Check out most hitters splits and you will see that they usually have 1 or 2 good months that stand out. The great thing about the overall numbers is that it equally measures the good and the bad, and in the end Patterson had a .840 OPS, which shows that he has the potential to be an .800 OPS guy. Furthermore, the guy is only 24 for pete sakes. Are you saying that he has reached his peek and has no room for improvement? Most 24 year olds are in their 1st season in the majors. He has the skills to be a very good player and has plenty of room for improvement. His power isn't gone either. He has 14 extra base hits so far, which is only 3 less than the great Maggs, 1 less than CLee, the same as Konerko, and more than Crede for comparison, so how has his power completely left him. Furthermore, how has his power reached a peek when he isn't fully healthy(over 1 year to recover fom ACL surgury) and he is only 24.

 

Will you quit with the Cards rainout? You know that you are desperate when you have to fall back on adding games that didn't count. His 2003 ERA was within .20(which is almost the difference in one game as you continue to point out with your Cards example) of pitchers like Russ Ortiz(20 game winner), Hampton, Maddux, Leiter, Millwood, and Eaton. It was better than pitchers like Peavy, Penny, Wade Miller, Lawrence, Wolf, Sheets, Perez, and Glavine. I would say that most of the pitchers listed away are considered front of the rotation starters. Furthermore, the league average for NL starters last year was in the 4.50-4.60 range(middle of the rotation starter), so Clements 4.11 ERA was well average the league average(solid #2 starter). The stats severely hurt you arguement.

 

Thanks for playing, and I will continue to pick apart your weak arguements. Might I suggest that you use stats/information/sources/facts to back up your arguements instead of pure speculation. It makes for a stronger arguement.

Speculation is part of the game, esp when it comes to, um, PREDICTING THE FUTURE. I also gave you plenty of hard facts. Not a believer in a career ERA? Well that just breaks me heart - Ponson is another who's "really stepped up" in the last coupe of seasons compared to his earlier years - how is he doing now? Good #2, would you say? A #1 maybe?

 

Yes, it's a plus pitch, where did I say otherwise? It's no longer in the mid-90's, and he throws the four-seamer a lot less. It's a fact. WGN and WCIU radar guns have not clocked higher than 93 all season - mind you I haven't seen every one of his starts; even in 2003, his velocity was down to low-90's. FOX radar gun I have no idea about, other than to say that it inflates velocities, unless of course you believe Josh Beckett can reach 101 mph and Garland - 96.

 

Aren't you cute when you attempt to satirize? Stick to reminiscing about your football days. The injury is coming, you're gonna see it in the next 1-2 years. My opinion? Sure, I admitted it as such a while ago.

 

It's much more important WHY he was struggling with SD and Fla, and whether or not much has changed since. His 2003 was that hot either. Only 2002 stands as the only year when Clement has met my standard for a #2 Sox need.

 

4.00 ERA is a "very good #2" on a playoff team in the AL? I disagree. Hell, Jon Garland might just have a 4.00 ERA season one of htese years, and he is a mediocre #3 at best, nor does he make 6 Mill.

 

Yes, we can all see Patterson's "power" this season, his slugging % is just b****ing'. But I am sure his knee is sore and hasn't regained full range of motion and is psychologically affecting his mechanical approach at the plate....balablablablabla, I'll take my opinion over yours, thanks. This year his pitch-selection is even worse. He might figure it out soon - or he might not - and that risk is not worth giving Maggs to the Cubs, not even close.

 

You WANT Cubs to re-sign the only true All-Star we have and a huge fan favorite? Obviously their payroll is gonna break 100 plateu a years from now.

A-Gone, Remlinger, Clement, Alou are gone. That's enough to pay for Maggs (with deferred money of course).

 

Sox can solve the #5 problem without getting rid of Maggs. And since I don't think either Clement or Willie Mays-Mays will carry this team for the enture year.....

 

The rain-out happened, deal with it. That 4.11 ERA is 4.25+ if he hadn't been bailed out by mother nature. Do you know what the park Adjusted ERA was for NL in 2003? 4.24. But even 4.11 isn't particularly great in the National League.

 

Don't flatter yourself. How's Greg Miller for Maggs sound? I am sure Dodgers are salivating over Wright and Pacheco now...

 

Just keep on watching WGN, time will judge which one of us is right.