witesoxfan Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 How bout someone who can lay off a f***ing curve ball in the dirt? Willie probably couldn't do that either. It's also been proven Jose can't hit breaking balls at all. If he had to hit a breaking ball to win the World Series, I would cry. Honest to god, I would. What we really need is a good utility IF, one who can hit a breaking ball, can hit LHP, and one who can play 2B, SS, and 3B. Damn I miss Tony G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 How bout someone who can lay off a f***ing curve ball in the dirt? Honestly I'll take my chances with Willie. I forgot who said this earlier but he's only had a few sample sizes at the majors hitting against lefties. His first couple stints he was hitting right .200 as a whole. Let him play against lefties and lets really see if he could hit them. Atleast with Willie he'll go into left field and stay on the ball a little longer, Jose only pulls the ball causing him to pull of the ball even more, making that breaking ball even harder for him to hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Valentin has always made me sick to my stomach. I'm just glad that I missed this game... Valentin --> :puke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Even f***ing Konerko layed off that pitch. Listen, you make no sense - Konerko is a Right-handed batter versus left-handed pitcher, so I should hope he lays off that curveball. I don't know who propagated this notion that Jose can;t hit a breaking ball, but it's utter nonsense - half of his homers came off breaking pitches. It's important that Jose was able to drive pitches off the wall aganst Santana and Romero in Minnesota. It shows (as if his torrid spring training didn't) that he can hang with lefties from the left side as long as he stays back nicely and hit for power when he DOES connect -- something he couldn't do as a right-hander the last few years. onight he was over-anxious and Kenny Rogers exploited him. s*** happens, and I hope Ozzie and Walke tell Jose to use the entire-field against south-paws because it's clear they are working him away, away, away. Adjustments have to be made, no question. Manos came into this game with a 300+ OBP/640 OPS against lefties, for pete's sake. Is it easy to learn to hit all-lefty at 34? No, it's hard as hell, but until tonight he did a tolerable job this season. Incomparably better than Willie, who is BEYOND brutal against lefties - makes Valentin look like Bonds this season. You people need to stop freaking out over an 0-for-4 game. It won't be the first time Jose failed to reach base in a game, and it won't be the last. He'll is and will be ok against lefties and that's why Ozzie will continue starting him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 I don't know who propagated this notion that Jose can;t hit a breaking ball, but it's utter nonsense - Kenny Rogers propogated that notion pretty damn well this evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Kenny Rogers propogated that notion pretty damn well this evening. Yes, because I should disregard everything else in favor of 4 ugly at bats..... Nice military logic there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Yes, because I should disregard everything else in favor of 4 ugly at bats..... Nice military logic there. Common sense is something else aint it? Thing of it is is that Valentin is notorious for waving at crap pitches like that or popping them up to RF at best. Sometimes he's just painful to watch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Common sense is something else aint it? Thing of it is is that Valentin is notorious for waving at crap pitches like that or popping them up to RF at best. Sometimes he's just painful to watch. No, common sense would go something like this: "Jose came into this game with a stellar 870 OPS, so he must know a little bit about hitting, including breaking pitches". Hitters overswing. Especially when they go lefty-on-lefty. Sometimes they wave at breaking pitches. Sometimes a smart pitcher uses such over-eagerness to his advantage, making the hitter look foolish. Can Joe Crede, Rowand, Lee, Konerko, Olivo hit a breaking ball? They are prone to "waving" at the pitch, so I guess that means they can't hit it. Ever. You don't like strike-outs. Cry me a river. An out is an out - be thankful it wasn't a DP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 This Anti-Valentin sentiment just boggles the mind. For the life of me I can't understand why some people cannot see what a valueable asset Jose Valentin is to the Sox. But I digress. I'm tired of fighting this idiotic battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 This Anti-Valentin sentiment just boggles the mind. I know, it's hilarious isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 I have no problem with him at all i was just saying he had a rough night with some really bad swings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 I have no problem with him at all i was just saying he had a rough night with some really bad swings. Granted. That he did. It's all the rest of the rhetoric that is absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 This Anti-Valentin sentiment just boggles the mind. For the life of me I can't understand why some people cannot see what a valueable asset Jose Valentin is to the Sox. But I digress. I'm tired of fighting this idiotic battle. not antiValentin and certainly not Valentin hating as has been falsely charged - different people see different things, none of us agree on all players I would like to trade Valentin for value that is not to me "antiValentin" or "hating" him If everytime we made a trade or thought we might, if that meant hate or being anti, we'd be in a world of hurt you see him as being worth more to the Sox than I do, that is just a difference in what we perceive, that is all, it is the source of all baseball conversations about players I don't like the bashing on Jose he has given us some great moments I said when we still had Royce that I wanted both Royce and Jose to move on and us get going with our future - I was challenged then by saying "what future" and the answer has been given: Uribe. But I am in no way anti Jose or a hater nor in agreement with those who bash him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 This Anti-Valentin sentiment just boggles the mind. For the life of me I can't understand why some people cannot see what a valueable asset Jose Valentin is to the Sox. But I digress. I'm tired of fighting this idiotic battle. I just guess it's because when he looks bad, it's bad. Valentin is a top 10 SS in the league, behind Nomar, Tejada, Jeter etc. The problem is is that he's overpaid at $5 million so ppl expect more out of him, but the SS position is 1 that is very high in demand, but not in supply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 cwsox - You are 1005 correct in everything you said in that post. We have a difference of opinion on the percieved value of JV. And hey, that is very cool. No problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 I just guess it's because when he looks bad, it's bad. Valentin is a top 10 SS in the league, behind Nomar, Tejada, Jeter etc. The problem is is that he's overpaid at $5 million so ppl expect more out of him, but the SS position is 1 that is very high in demand, but not in supply. That is another isuue I vehemently disagree with. That Jose is overpaid. Not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 I still say about 3 million sounds right for him imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 not antiValentin and certainly not Valentin hating as has been falsely charged - You have nothing to apologize for - you don't like Valentin, you don't think he is worth a damn in the clubhouse, you don't like his production. There is no need to be defensive and play the "I am being viciously attacked" persecution card. Not likeing a player is far from a crime - in fact, it's a healthy part of sports. I would like to trade Valentin for value But at 34yo he has NO value. That's why it was so important when he stopped swinging for the fences (only 2 HR) during 2004 Spring Training, and instead unleashed an unholy attack on all pitchers, lefties included - something like 1200 OPS for the entire month of March. He actually became that all-around hitter everyone wanted him to be and committed zero errors on spring training-quality infields. In short, his value shot up. But once the season began, bad habits returned - both overswinging at the plate and carelessness in the field. It didn't help that he got hurt just as he was getting on a roll and it took him a while to get the rhythm back. So right now, you won't get anything in return until he does what he did during ST for at least 4-6 weeks straight.....Which is why the club trots him out there - they hope he puts a nice streak together and they can trade him and get something in return. KW overpaid for his services and now he is reaping what he's sewn. I was challenged then by saying "what future" and the answer has been given: Uribe Uribe is the future and so is Willie, but since they can play 2B/3B and CF, that allows some roster flexibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotop Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 When talking contracts I think it's pretty darn hard to say a player is overpaid for 5million. Especially when it's the last year of said player's contract. I'm not going to get on the Jose bandwagon or the Anti-Jose bandwagon, I'm pretty netural on Jose because over time the bad stuff (K's) evens out with the really good stuff (above avg range, power). But to say Jose is overpaid you must have the mentality of the Twins. A 5million dollar, short term contract is not the death knell for a team like the White Sox. I think it's safe to say we're not a small market team and therefore can afford to "overpay" a player like Valentin who may bring intangibles that every good team needs (leadership, excitement, etc.). I may or may not know that he provides this, but he's obviously good for the rest of the team because you've never heard the words "clubhouse cancer" in the same breath as Jose Valentin. I think high character, hustle players deserve their pay. Jose defines this and even though he may have his 0-4 nights w/4 K's, he'll have his nights w/two homers or knocking in the game winning run. Hell Fernando Vina and Kenny Lofton make 3million a year, to think that Jose is "overpaid" for 5 is downright laughable. I just think instead of living day by day people should look at the big picture and calm down. We're tied for first without our offense in its highest gear (crede struggling, Jose struggling, CF a mess). Maybe we can all just have fun watching a first place team for awhile and wait for something truly drastic to happen before going nuts. Maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 I just think instead of living day by day people should look at the big picture and calm down. We're tied for first without our offense in its highest gear (crede struggling, Jose struggling, CF a mess). Maybe we can all just have fun watching a first place team for awhile and wait for something truly drastic to happen before going nuts. Maybe? The rest of your post was pretty damn good too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 This Anti-Valentin sentiment just boggles the mind. For the life of me I can't understand why some people cannot see what a valueable asset Jose Valentin is to the Sox. But I digress. I'm tired of fighting this idiotic battle. If you've read my posts since I came to Soxtalk then you know that I've been one of Valentin's biggest backers but I dont care who it is, if they turn in a s***ty performance, especially one that I paid to go see live, then I'm gonna take some swipes after the fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 If you've read my posts since I came to Soxtalk then you know that I've been one of Valentin's biggest backers but I dont care who it is, if they turn in a s***ty performance, especially one that I paid to go see live, then I'm gonna take some swipes after the fact. Given the fact that you are a paying customer, I'll let it slide this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 I just think instead of living day by day people should look at the big picture and calm down. We're tied for first without our offense in its highest gear (crede struggling, Jose struggling, CF a mess). Valentin came into tonight's game with an 870 OPS and very good "clutch" stats across the board. He is has few sac bunts and even a couple of steals. And that is diluted by his trying to learn the lefty-on-lefty thing, mind you. I have no idea where the "Jose is not hitting" thing comes from. He hasn't really gotten on big streak, sure, but he's been very, very solid at the plate so far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 What sort of stas would you guys be happy with for the year from valentin??? .270 25 hr's 65-70 rbi's and an ops of around .800 That would be excellent imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotop Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Brando, the "Jose struggling" was an assumption really...I haven't seen him do much as of late and I was at tonight's game so I put two and two together. Also, I was speaking in terms of the here and now...not really based on what he may have done for the first couple weeks of the season or whatever. But I do believe Jose will give us what he's always given us, and that's solid numbers. He hasn't shown us in the past that he will do otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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