Good grief..

[Steff]

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/news/050304_nw...sault_case.html

 

 

SANTA ANA — Jurors Monday were shown photographs that a prosecutor said proved three teenage boys used a bottle, juice can, lit cigarette and large end of a pool cue to sexually assault an unconscious 16-year-old girl.

 

San Clemente resident Gregory Haidl, the 18-year-old son of Orange County Assistant Sheriff Don Haidl, and Kyle Joseph Nachreiner and Keith James Spann, both 19 from Rancho Cucamonga, each face up to 55 years in prison if convicted of the 24 charges against them.

 

"They threw her onto a (pool) table and sexually penetrated her genitals with a can, a bottle and a stick, and they danced with joy" to rap music, Orange County Deputy District Attorney Dan Hess said in his opening statement.

 

"They danced and smiled and laughed, and that's the way they set it up," the prosecutor told the panel, adding that the alleged attack was videotaped by the defendants.

 

But defense attorneys told the panelists that the now-18-year-old woman orchestrated the videotaping, then only pretended to be drunk.

 

"There was videotaped sex and it is awful and disgusting," said John Barnett, Nachreiner's attorney. "But what the evidence will show is this: this pornography stuff, she used that along with the appearance of being intoxicated as an excuse, as a way of explaining bad choices, very bad choices, but they were choices (she made).

 

"Nobody is going to argue this is OK, that this is morally all right," Barnett added. "It ain't. Nobody's going to argue that it's not disgusting. It is. But it was a choice. On the video, she ... is acting. This is exactly what she said she wanted to do."

 

Barnett said all four teens, including the girl, are part of a subculture "for whom pornography has become acceptable, even glamorous." "Pornography has become an excuse, an explanation for promiscuity," Barnett said.

 

If one is "acting, everything is OK," he said. "It's conduct we don't want to look at, four teenagers who lost their moral compass. But for all that, there was no crime" because it was consensual.

 

Haidl's attorney, Joseph Cavallo, said the girl took part in the videotaped sex in order to try and make a young man jealous after he had rejected her.

 

"She wanted to be popular," Cavallo said. "She knew how to use her body and she knew how to use sex -- not in any ordinary way."

 

Each defendant faces three counts of rape by intoxication, two counts of oral copulation by intoxication, 14 counts of sexual penetration by intoxication, four counts of penetration by force and one count of assault with a deadly weapon.

 

The alleged attack took place on the evening of July 5, 2002, and into the early hours the following day, according to police. The youths were gathered in the garage of the home, and the attack allegedly took place on a pool table.

 

The girl, Haidl's girlfriend and two other young women had spent the Fourth of July at the Corona del Mar home of the elder Haidl, who was away.

 

Cavallo said the girl jumped into a swimming pool and had sex with Nachreiner within 10 minutes of meeting him, then had sex with Haidl and Spann later in the day.

 

The girls went back home to their homes in Rancho Cucamonga the next morning. One of the boys invited the alleged victim to return the next night, with the other girls, but the other two did not want to go back, Cavallo said.

 

The alleged victim realized she would have the boys all to herself and went to the home after getting off work, Cavallo said.

 

Orange County Superior Court Judge Francisco Briseno denied the prosecution's request to show the videotape during opening statements, but he did allow still photographs taken from the tape to be shown.

 

Hess told jurors that they will view the videotape "several" times during the trial. In accordance with the judge's order, the media and the public will not be able to see the tape during the trial.

 

The beginning of the videotape shows the defendants giving the girl a drink that she told them she didn't like because it tasted like pine needles, Hess said.

 

Initially, the girl -- who Hess referred to as "Jane Doe" -- sat on the couch.

 

"I am so f----- up," she reportedly said after imbibing the drink.

 

"She is slouched on the couch, slurring her words," Hess said.

 

One photo taken from tape shows her engaging in a sex act with Nachreiner on the couch, and Spann kneeling behind her, Hess said. At one point, he said, "she falls on her face unconscious on the couch."

 

Several times, the girl was slapped on the buttocks, and each time she failed to respond, the prosecutor said. Hess told jurors that the boys pointed to the pool table in the garage and one said, "Let's switch her up." "Jane Doe is flopping like a rag doll," Hess said. `Her arms are splayed out, and she is completely limp. Lying naked and unconscious on the pool table, the camera is aimed (up her legs)."

 

While the attack is under way, "Spann is mugging for the camera. Sex rap music is playing. They dance along with the music, making hand signs," Hess said. "Spann ... gets up on the table and rapes Jane Doe again."

 

Then, Hess said, "defendant Haidl takes his turn" with the victim by inserting the items.

 

Despite the defense's insistence that the girl willingly participated in the videotape to supposedly realize a dream of becoming a porn star, Hess said the girl did not want to be photographed having sex.

 

A few days before the alleged attack, the teens had secretly videotaped the girl and Spann -- who were dating at the time -- having sex, Hess said. When she saw the footage, "she told them to erase it but they didn't," the prosecutor said.

 

"They targeted her, isolated her, got her intoxicated and filmed her anyway," Hess alleged.

 

While defense attorneys have denied drugs were involved, Hess said he will call an expert witness who will testify that the girl appeared to be under the influence of a date rape-type drug.

 

The investigation into the case began after friends of the younger Haidl watched the footage. One couple, fearing the girl was a victim, took the camcorder home and showed it to a Pasadena police officer, Hess said.

 

Cavallo said Haidl's father, an assistant sheriff who is not paid a salary, "came from nothing and made himself into what he is today."

 

"He developed a business on his own ... he raised his son as best he could," Cavallo said. "His father should not be here prosecuted. He's a self-made man."

 

Cavallo said the defense will call friends of the woman in an attempt to attack her credibility.

 

Prosecutors have said that despite previous consensual sex, it is against the law in California to have sex with someone who is unconscious.

[Texsox]

Good reason to not get drunk. Is this called playing prisoner and prison guard :headshake

[Steff]

Good reason to not get drunk. Is this called playing prisoner and prison guard  :headshake

Apparently it's thought she was given the "date rape" drug.

 

Regardless.. IMO, "a good reason not to get drunk" is a weak argument. People get drunk all the time without incident.

[mreye]

A good reason not to hang out with loser punks. Whether she was a whore or not, she didn't deserve this.

[Wong & Owens]

Apparently it's thought she was given the "date rape" drug.

 

Regardless.. IMO, "a good reason not to get drunk" is a weak argument. People get drunk all the time without incident.

Word.

 

This is just a case of some stupid kids doing stupid things.

 

Not that any of what happened was right by any means, but there have been guys that have used drugs/alcohol to "loosen" girls up since the beginning of time. There have always been girls willing to be as promiscuous as necessary to be considered cool. Teens have always experimented with sex.

 

Pornography is not destroying the youth of america.

 

This has nothing to f***ing do with god or any lack of god.

[Texsox]

Apparently it's thought she was given the "date rape" drug.

 

Regardless.. IMO, "a good reason not to get drunk" is a weak argument. People get drunk all the time without incident.

Why would you want to lose control of yourself like that? My comment was along the lines of locking your door, not flashing around $500 cash while leaving a bar, etc. There are basic steps to protect yourself from crime. Certainly people have left their doors open and flashed large amounts of money without incident. But why take the chances?

[Steff]

Why would you want to lose control of yourself like that? My comment was along the lines of locking your door, not flashing around $500 cash while leaving a bar, etc. There are basic steps to protect yourself from crime. Certainly people have left their doors open and flashed large amounts of money without incident. But why take the chances?

Tex.. I have no idea. But I sure don't feel that the action deserves a reaction such as this.

[Texsox]

Tex.. I have no idea. But I sure don't feel that the action deserves a reaction such as this.

Of course not. I wasn't blaming the victim at all. Just pointing out how often bad things can happen when you are that drunk. With no way to protect yourself, all sorts of very bad things can happen.

[Steff]

Of course not. I wasn't blaming the victim at all. Just pointing out how often bad things can happen when you are that drunk. With no way to protect yourself, all sorts of very bad things can happen.

I'm sorry.. I knew I wasn't clear after I hit reply...

 

I know you're not condoning it.

 

I just can't bring myself to say "well.. don't drink and bad things won't happen to you.." I don't think that's fair or accurate.

[Texsox]

I'm sorry.. I knew I wasn't clear after I hit reply...

 

I know you're not condoning it.

 

I just can't bring myself to say "well.. don't drink and bad things won't happen to you.." I don't think that's fair or accurate.

No, but drinking until you are a "rag doll" isn't wise. Plus, from a guy perspective, if you both are falling down drunk and have sex, only one of you could be conficted of rape.

 

Remember the moral quandry this guy wound up in when the Dean's daughter passed out

 

[Steff]

No, but drinking until you are a "rag doll" isn't wise. Plus, from a guy perspective, if you both are falling down drunk and have sex, only one of you could be conficted of rape.

 

Remember the moral quandry this guy wound up in when the Dean's daughter passed out

 

What if, as it's suggested here, she was given the "date rape" drug?

 

 

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think drinking until you are a "rag doll" is a normal activity.

[moochpuppy]

Of course not. I wasn't blaming the victim at all. Just pointing out how often bad things can happen when you are that drunk.

Especially under-age drinking. This generation of teens hasn't proven to be the most intelligent. :headshake

[Steff]

Especially under-age drinking.  This generation of teens hasn't proven to be the most intelligent. :headshake

If they had only been going to church on a regular basis....

[southsider2k5]

Especially under-age drinking.  This generation of teens hasn't proven to be the most intelligent. :headshake

This generation of teens? I would have to say I haven't seen any generation of smart teens.

[Texsox]

What if, as it's suggested here, she was given the "date rape" drug?

 

 

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think drinking until you are a "rag doll" is a normal activity. 

But she did, and that is what I was responding to

 

Several times, the girl was slapped on the buttocks, and each time she failed to respond, the prosecutor said. Hess told jurors that the boys pointed to the pool table in the garage and one said, "Let's switch her up." "Jane Doe is flopping like a rag doll," Hess said. `Her arms are splayed out, and she is completely limp. Lying naked and unconscious on the pool table, the camera is aimed (up her legs)."

[Steff]

But she did, and that is what I was responding to

You missed this part of the article...?

 

 

"While defense attorneys have denied drugs were involved, Hess said he will call an expert witness who will testify that the girl appeared to be under the influence of a date rape-type drug. "

[Texsox]

You missed this part of the article...?

 

 

"While defense attorneys have denied drugs were involved, Hess said he will call an expert witness who will testify that the girl appeared to be under the influence of a date rape-type drug. "

Let's forget the article for a moment, and let me make this statement:

 

In general, it is a bad idea to get so drunk with strangers that you lose control of your yourself. I am talking specifically about impared motor ability and equally important, diminished judgement. I equate that to, not locking your doors at night, and flashing around $500 while walking to your car parked on the street, six blocks from the United Center.

 

I am not equating that to having a few drinks with close friends. She may have been drugged, she may not have, that is for a jury to decide.

[Steff]

Let's forget the article for a moment, and let me make this statement:

 

In general, it is a bad idea to get so drunk with strangers that you lose control of your yourself. I am talking specifically about impared motor ability and equally important, diminished judgement. I equate that to, not locking your doors at night, and flashing around $500 while walking to your car parked on the street, six blocks from the United Center.

 

I am not equating that to having a few drinks with close friends. She may have been drugged, she may not have, that is for a jury to decide.

I agree.. but since the article and the incident IS what you're basing your comments on...

 

And maybe I'm niave.. but I don't think getting drunk as a "rag doll" is the norm.

[Texsox]

I agree.. but since the article and the incident IS what you're basing your comments on...

 

And maybe I'm niave.. but I don't think getting drunk as a "rag doll" is the norm.

Getting that drunk seems to be more the norm for the college crowd. The article sparked my comment, but I was really expanding beyond the article to a lesson people could learn from this poor girl's experience.

[Soxy]

In general, it is a bad idea to get so drunk with strangers that you lose control of your yourself. I am talking specifically about impared motor ability and equally important, diminished judgement.

Fair point--I would say alcohol is by far the most prominent "Date Rape" drug out there.

 

But for college aged kids about 84% of them are assaulted by their someone they know--so I don't know if that really helps the stranger danger idealogy.

[EvilJester99]

If those boys go to jail, I am sure Bubba will show them what it was like for that girl. No worries, "what comes around goes around".

[Steff]

Getting that drunk seems to be more the norm for the college crowd. 

I'm out of that mix. Thankfully...

[moochpuppy]

If they had only been going to church on a regular basis....

Even church can't help stupid people.

[Wong & Owens]

I'm out of that mix. Thankfully...

Hmmm, then there goes my theory as to the identity of the topless yodeller on the roof of the IHOP on Roosevelt and Mannheim

[Steff]

Hmmm, then there goes my theory as to the identity of the topless yodeller on the roof of the IHOP on Roosevelt and Mannheim

Definitely wasn't me.. that place is so nasty I wouldn't use their parking lot to make a U-turn. :puke