All bias aside.....

[greasywheels121]

Will Maddux be last to win 300?

Peers agree milestone could soon be unattainable

By Carrie Muskat / MLB.com

 

HOUSTON -- Greg Maddux may be the last Major League pitcher to win 300 games.

 

Maddux's former teammate Tom Glavine thinks so. The New York Mets left-hander is 43 shy of 300.

 

"There are so few people who have played the game and have gotten there and that makes it a special and unique accomplishment," Glavine said. "After Greg, I don't know if you're going to see any more."

 

Arizona's Randy Johnson agrees.

 

"I don't think 300 wins will be achieved beyond Greg Maddux," said the Diamondbacks left-hander, who is 65 wins away with a 235-118 record. "I think the bar will come down considerably for pitchers when it comes to evaluating how pitchers are. That being said, with the bar coming down, it's a lot to be said for anybody who wins 300.

 

"Obviously, Greg has been consistent over the years and that's why he has come so close," Johnson said. "And being healthy, too. He's gotten what he deserves. He's one of the premier pitchers and has been. It's inevitable that he'll win his 300th game."

 

Roger Clemens notched his 300th last season. Maddux will get there eventually. On Wednesday, he dropped to 3-4 for the season and remained on hold with 292 victories after a 7-3 loss to the Houston Astros.

 

The 38-year-old right-hander is the only Major League pitcher to win at least 15 games in 16 consecutive seasons. That consistency is one of the reasons he's close to becoming the 22nd pitcher to achieve the magical 300.

 

"He's the epitome of what pitching is all about," Cincinnati pitching coach Don Gullett said. "He doesn't try to throw the ball by people. He understands the importance of location and ball movement and changing his speeds.

 

"Obviously, he's very intelligent about how he goes about attacking each hitter and their strengths and weaknesses," Gullett said. "He's like a surgeon out there. When he executes, that's why he's successful."

 

Maddux doesn't like to talk about 300. He doesn't want to look ahead.

 

"He knows the numbers and what he's accomplished but he doesn't like talking about it," Glavine said. "He might tell you he doesn't know how many wins he needs but I guarantee you he does.

 

"I think that's his way of not wanting to talk about something that it's not time to talk about," Glavine said. "He knows 300 wins is within his reach and barring some major catastrophe, he's going to get there. To him, the most important thing is who his next game is. That's how he chooses to think or has to think based on what his preparation is. And it's worked for him."

 

The young Chicago Cubs pitchers are learning how cerebral Maddux is. When he signed with the Cubs, there was talk about how he would be a mentor for Kerry Wood, Mark Prior and Carlos Zambrano. Maddux downplayed it but they are learning from the veteran.

 

"Obviously, he knows quite a bit about it," Wood said. "Sometimes he's a little deeper than I thought people were on the mound. I've got a lot to learn. It's been fun having him around and fun to watch him pitch and see him do his work in between."

 

Deeper?

 

"Thinking-wise," Wood said. "Sometimes, I don't think as much as he does, which could be a bad thing -- or it could be a good thing. We haven't figured out which one it is, good or bad."

 

Wood began this season with 59 big league wins. Prior has 24. Former big league pitcher and current San Francisco broadcaster Mike Krukow, who posted a 124-117 record over 14 seasons, thinks the two Cubs also have a chance at 300.

 

"The thing I look for is who learns to pitch the fastest," Krukow said. "A lot of things have to fall into place. Prior has a chance. The crapshoot is staying healthy. You have to have a long career."

 

Prior's not sure. Injuries have bugged the young right-hander, who made his second minor league rehab start Tuesday for Class A Lansing as he comes back from a sore right Achilles. Plus, the emphasis on relievers and the pressure of pitch counts has altered a starting pitcher's chances of finishing what he started.

 

"I think the game has changed to the point where it's driven by getting your starters through six, then turning it over to specialized relievers," Prior said. "You don't see a lot of complete games anymore. If you have two or three innings left in a game, a lot can happen, especially if it's a two- or three-run game.

 

"Three hundred wins means staying healthy, longevity, being lucky a lot of times," Prior said. "The fact that [Maddux] was with the Braves when they were winning close to 100 games a year helps. There are a lot of factors that go into winning 300 games. The only way you don't do it by being on a good team is being a freak like Nolan [Ryan] and playing for 28 years and just being around."

 

"I can't even relate to it," Cincinnati pitcher Todd Jones said of 300. "I don't think you can start thinking about it until you're at 250 and your arm hasn't fallen off."

 

And 250 could be the new milestone.

 

"In this day and age of five-man rotations and bullpens and everything else, winning 300 games is next to impossible," Glavine said. "With a five-man rotation, the odds of winning 20 games are so hard. You push that number down to 15, 16 a year and the 300 number will come down with it. You're looking at guys getting to that 250 plateau as being a really big accomplishment and the 300 plateau almost being virtually impossible.

 

"You don't get the opportunity to win as many games any more with the five-man rotation and the way the offenses are nowadays," Glavine said. "It's harder and harder for starters to stay in there and get the decisions. The bullpen has become such a commodity, starting pitchers are being taken out of games that are tied and don't get the chance to win anymore."

 

Fernando Valenzuela agrees. He pitched 17 years, and had a career 173-153 record.

 

"It's hard not only to pitch every fifth day but to win the games," said Valenzuela, now a broadcaster with the Los Angeles Dodgers. "Sometimes you pitch good and don't have the offense and support from the team and it goes as a no decision. This game is a team game. Everybody has to do it together to win games."

 

Tom Seaver remembers his milestone game Aug. 4, 1985, when he was going for his 300th win. He was pitching for the Chicago White Sox and pitching coach Dave Duncan was the acting manager for skipper Tony La Russa, who had been ejected in the second inning. The White Sox were playing the New York Yankees at Yankee Stadium.

 

"It's the ninth inning, two guys on, 4-1 ballgame, Yankee Stadium," Seaver said. "Duncan comes out and he says, 'If you think I'm taking you out of this game in front of 60,000 people at Yankee Stadium, you're out of your mind.'"

 

Seaver got the win.

[witesoxfan]

Personally, I highly doubt Maddux is the last. Maybe the last for 10 or 15 years, but definately not the last.

 

I look for Prior, assuming he can stay healthy, to do it too.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Personally, I highly doubt Maddux is the last.  Maybe the last for 10 or 15 years, but definately not the last.

 

I look for Prior, assuming he can stay healthy, to do it too.

I really liked Maddux when he was with Atlanta & even when he was a Flub.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Nice article. Makes a lot of good points. I think after Maddux, it will be a long time before anybody wins 300 again.

[BrandoFan]

Last 300-game winner? No way.

 

Pitchers are capable of mantaining good form deep into 30s and some have gone over into 40's.

 

There will be a phenom with a rubber arm who comes into the league at 20-21yo and will finish his career at 40yo and will have the talent to average 15 wins per season.

 

Mark Prior will win 300 no prob. Hopefully not as a Cub.

[AngelasDaddy0427]

Maddux is a great pitcher but he will not be the last to win 300 games.

[Gene Honda Civic]

There will be a phenom with a rubber arm who comes into the league at 20-21yo and will finish his career at 40yo and will have the talent to average 15 wins per season.

I present to you the case of Mark Buerhle: Born: March 23, 1979

 

Season	TM	G	GS	CG	SHO	IP	H	R	ER	HR	BB	SO	W	L	SV	HLD	BLSV	ERA
2000	CWS	28	3	0	0	51.1	55	27	24	5	19	37	4	1	0	3	2	4.21
2001	CWS	32	32	4	2	221.1	188	89	81	24	48	126	16	8	0	0	--	3.29
2002	CWS	34	34	5	2	239.0	236	102	95	25	61	134	19	12	0	0	--	3.58
2003	CWS	35	35	2	0	230.1	250	124	106	22	61	119	14	14	0	0	--	4.14
2004	CWS	11	11	0	0	70.1	80	31	27	8	16	57	5	1	0	0	--	3.46
Total	--	140	115	11	4	812.1	809	373	333	84	205	473	58	36	0	3	2	3.69

 

MB is a rubber armed pitcher who doesn't feature the most dazzling stuff in the Major Leagues. He knows how to get hitters out even without the most dominant stuff.

 

I'm not saying MB is going to win 300 games. He most likely will not. He is exactly the type of pitcher who could though. The most likely event that would prevent a pitcher from winning 300 is injury. Almost all pitchers are bound to go on the DL at some point. Even Prior the Messiah is already on the DL for the second time in his career.

[Texsox]

Only a fool would say never. Of course we will see another 300 win pitcher. It will be an even bigger accomplishment than some current 300 game winners with the trends involved.

[southsider2k5]

These things go in cycles. Right now we are in a hitting era, soon it will move back to pitching. Look at the history of the game. Plenty of changes happen.

[The Critic]

Fernando Valenzuela made a key point in this discussion:

"This game is a team game. Everybody has to do it together to win games."

If Maddux had not left the Cubs, he would not be in position to win his 300th game now. He had the benefit of the best NL team of the 90's to win him some games when maybe he didn't have his best stuff. The Cub teams of the 90's would not have won him that type of game very often.

This is a fact many Cub fans are currently choosing to ignore as they prepare for his coronation.

[witesoxfan]

I present to you the case of Mark Buerhle:  Born: March 23, 1979

 

Season	TM	G	GS	CG	SHO	IP	H	R	ER	HR	BB	SO	W	L	SV	HLD	BLSV	ERA
2000	CWS	28	3	0	0	51.1	55	27	24	5	19	37	4	1	0	3	2	4.21
2001	CWS	32	32	4	2	221.1	188	89	81	24	48	126	16	8	0	0	--	3.29
2002	CWS	34	34	5	2	239.0	236	102	95	25	61	134	19	12	0	0	--	3.58
2003	CWS	35	35	2	0	230.1	250	124	106	22	61	119	14	14	0	0	--	4.14
2004	CWS	11	11	0	0	70.1	80	31	27	8	16	57	5	1	0	0	--	3.46
Total	--	140	115	11	4	812.1	809	373	333	84	205	473	58	36	0	3	2	3.69

 

MB is a rubber armed pitcher who doesn't feature the most dazzling stuff in the Major Leagues.  He knows how to get hitters out even without the most dominant stuff. 

 

I'm not saying MB is going to win 300 games.  He most likely will not.  He is exactly the type of pitcher who could though.  The most likely event that would prevent a pitcher from winning 300 is injury.  Almost all pitchers are bound to go on the DL at some point.  Even Prior the Messiah is already on the DL for the second time in his career.

Right now, I would venture to guess that Mark Buehrle has a solid shot of doing it. MB is capable of winning 15 a year, and can even win more on occasion.

 

Honest to God, I would expect someone like Mark Buehrle to get it over a Mark Prior. Power pitchers, even with fluid and flawless mechanics, are more likely to get injured then a guy who throws 88-90. That being said, considering where they are in their respective careers, I like both Buehrle and Prior's chances of doing it. Buehrle just gets wins, and Prior's talent is insane.

[Yoda]

Fernando Valenzuela made a key point in this discussion:

"This game is a team game. Everybody has to do it together to win games."

If Maddux had not left the Cubs, he would not be in position to win his 300th game now. He had the benefit of the best NL team of the 90's to win him some games when maybe he didn't have his best stuff. The Cub teams of the 90's would not have won him that type of game very often.

This is a fact many Cub fans are currently choosing to ignore as they prepare for his coronation.

The Cubs were horrible in the 90's and I have to agree that Maddux wouldn't have his 292nd W if he stayed with the Cubs all of that time. Honestly, the Cubs have only been very impressive last year and they have a chance of doing that again. Maddux is doing bad right now. I know he can do allot better and there's no doubt (or am I too sure?) that Maddux will get his 300th win while wearing cubbie blue.