Chisoxfn Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Shades of 2000? Part Three: The Offense By Matt Michel February 20, 2003 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 as good as that article was... i can not and wont let myself even come close to comparing this team to the 2000 team and get hopes up that something like that season will return now with this season.........you tend to foreget that key elements of the teams chemistry are long gone now and i havent seen much of a replacement.....believe what you wish with all your numbers but you need to have a common bond or chemistry amoung these guys as well or it isnt going to flow smooth................nice article but im not getting any hopes up to the height of the 2000 team ......that was a magic year....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan420 Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 as good as that article was... i can not and wont let myself even come close to comparing this team to the 2000 team and get hopes up that something like that season will return now with this season.........you tend to foreget that key elements of the teams chemistry are long gone now and i havent seen much of a replacement.....believe what you wish with all your numbers but you need to have a common bond or chemistry amoung these guys as well or it isnt going to flow smooth................nice article but im not getting any hopes up to the height of the 2000 team ......that was a magic year....... no that was a good year. i think we have some chemisrty with our young blood being a big part of that. has for a magical season i dont think so. a magical year is one like the angels had last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleM23 Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 as good as that article was... i can not and wont let myself even come close to comparing this team to the 2000 team and get hopes up that something like that season will return now with this season.........you tend to foreget that key elements of the teams chemistry are long gone now and i havent seen much of a replacement.....believe what you wish with all your numbers but you need to have a common bond or chemistry amoung these guys as well or it isnt going to flow smooth................nice article but im not getting any hopes up to the height of the 2000 team ......that was a magic year....... No one thought the 2000 team was going anywhere, either. Stranger things have happened. And its waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too premature to be saying that this team has no chemistry. They haven't even reported to Spring Training yet fer'chrissake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 No one thought the 2000 team was going anywhere, either. Stranger things have happened. And its waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to premature to be saying that this team has no chemistry. They haven't even reported to Spring Training yet fer'chrissake. Exactly. I think this team has a lot of potential in ability and in chemistry. I liked KW addressing the chemistry question at SoxFest and saying that is a consideration on who we sign. It is early, but I have hopes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 21, 2003 Author Share Posted February 21, 2003 Well I remember quite a few players mentioning last season how much better the clubhouse got after the trade deadline. I'm sure some of that had to do with Royce leaving, but it also had to do with the new players coming up bringing an upbeat attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 No one thought the 2000 team was going anywhere, either. Stranger things have happened. And its waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to premature to be saying that this team has no chemistry. They haven't even reported to Spring Training yet fer'chrissake. Exactly. I think this team has a lot of potential in ability and in chemistry. I liked KW addressing the chemistry question at SoxFest and saying that is a consideration on who we sign. It is early, but I have hopes. kw the guy who brought you people like lofton and clayton...and he knows chemistry?????? lmao.........that was a small joke right cw????? kw knows nothing about chemistry or he would have left things alone for at least one more season to actually test the whole theory out......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 HSC....that was KW from last year and the year before....he has learned, and is making himself out to be a capable, yet still a stupid, GM....he needs to quit toying around with Buehrle and he needs to get rid of Lee come mid-season, or at the very least after this year. I think he is a big part of the bad chemsitry....him killing rallies on the bases for the offense and helping to start rallies on defense for the opposing team hurt us....but he does have a good bat. We have enough good bats as it is....we need some lefty-power....something Rios/Daubach/Borchard could do for us from the LF spot. However, from watching the Twins win the past two years with some not so great talent, he has learned that great team chemistry, which is something the Twins did have, is exactly what it takes sometimes. I assume he realizes that the theory has been tested....by the Twins, and he's taking notes. The only guys that have a shot at causing trouble at all in the clubhouse both make less than $1 mill(Rios and Gordon)....if needed, he can just give them their outright release. He got rid of K-layton and Lofton, two of the biggest cancers on the team, last year and replaced them with Jose(who was replaced at 3B by Crede) and Rowand in CF. During the offseason, he got rid of Liefer, giving him his chance to start(making him as well as others on the team right now happy...I know for a fact that Konerko is happy) and Ritchie....Liefer is replaced by a guy that busts his ass wherever he plays and hits very well in Brian Daubach, and he replaced Ritchie with Bartolo Colon(who is damn good). All these guys that he brought in do nothing to take away from team chemistry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 alas i have no more enegry to argue the dumbness of kw and all of his exec. decisions..........im very bored with it actually.........all i can point out to you is the mere fact he took a winning team 95 of those wins to be exact and ran that team into the ground.... and he is working on running a #1 ranked minor league system into the ground too.........with all this running things into the ground we will have a landfill instead of a ball park very soon............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 witesoxfan, very good analysis. thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 kw the guy who brought you people like lofton and clayton...and he knows chemistry?????? lmao.........that was a small joke right cw????? kw knows nothing about chemistry or he would have left things alone for at least one more season to actually test the whole theory out......... 2 things get affected DRAMATICALLY when a team is winning vs. when they are losing... 1) Attendance, and 2) Team chemistry In 2000, the Sox had "great chemistry" largely due to the fact that they were winning. In 2001 and 2002, they were losing, so they "didn't have chemistry". When you're winning, the inter-team fights don't surface, and the media isn't hounding them for the story, like with the Konerko/Thomas situation (Paulie was VERY wrong to criticize Frank, by the way). Most of the key components from the 2000 squad are still here (save Ray Ray and CJ, who was only here for the 2nd half), so there's no reason to believe we can't do it again. Paulie and Mags are much better now than they were then, and once again, Frank has some non-believers to shut up. TO ANYONE WHO DOUBTED OR CONTINUES TO DOUBT FRANK EVER, f*** YOU. He'll prove all of you wrong in '03 while leading the Sox to a run for the World Series. Plus, our pitching should be better than it was in 2000 - that will take a lot of pressure off the offense and allow them to be freer at the plate. BTW, your excessive ............................ is annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 all i can point out to you is the mere fact he took a winning team 95 of those wins to be exact and ran that team into the ground Players from that 2000 team that are no longer here... James Baldwin -- Traded after becoming a walking wound Cal Eldred -- Retired after an incredible 2000 (even though his ERA was high, he somehow won) Ray Durham -- Signed by the Giants for more money than the Sox could give him Charles Johnson -- Was pretty much a rental for the Playoff run Mike Sirotka -- Traded just in time ( ) Keith Foulke -- Traded after falling out of favor with Sox management for some reason Chris Singleton -- Don't remember how we "lost" him Jim Parque -- Herbert Perry -- Traded to the Rangers, I think (or maybe TX just signed him, I don't remember) Ken Hill -- LOL, that was funny for a couple of games I'm sure there are more...but I think those are the main ones. So how did Kenny Williams "run this team into the ground"? We've replaced our rotation (most of which is either retired or still not recovered from their injuries) with some great young (and healthy) arms in Dan Wright, Mark Buehrle, Bartolo Colon, and maybe Jon Rauch. We've replaced Singleton/Perry with Rowand/Crede, and we've replaced Ray Ray with D'Angelo, who has tremendous potential (he could score 130 runs quite easily if he can do his job). Our bullpen is better now than it was in 2000 IMO, and our overall team D is probably about the same I'd say. KW takes way too much heat. :fyou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 22, 2003 Author Share Posted February 22, 2003 all i can point out to you is the mere fact he took a winning team 95 of those wins to be exact and ran that team into the ground Players from that 2000 team that are no longer here... James Baldwin -- Traded after becoming a walking wound Cal Eldred -- Retired after an incredible 2000 (even though his ERA was high, he somehow won) Ray Durham -- Signed by the Giants for more money than the Sox could give him Charles Johnson -- Was pretty much a rental for the Playoff run Mike Sirotka -- Traded just in time ( ) Keith Foulke -- Traded after falling out of favor with Sox management for some reason Chris Singleton -- Don't remember how we "lost" him Jim Parque -- Herbert Perry -- Traded to the Rangers, I think (or maybe TX just signed him, I don't remember) Ken Hill -- LOL, that was funny for a couple of games I'm sure there are more...but I think those are the main ones. So how did Kenny Williams "run this team into the ground"? We've replaced our rotation (most of which is either retired or still not recovered from their injuries) with some great young (and healthy) arms in Dan Wright, Mark Buehrle, Bartolo Colon, and maybe Jon Rauch. We've replaced Singleton/Perry with Rowand/Crede, and we've replaced Ray Ray with D'Angelo, who has tremendous potential (he could score 130 runs quite easily if he can do his job). Our bullpen is better now than it was in 2000 IMO, and our overall team D is probably about the same I'd say. KW takes way too much heat. :fyou They traded Singleton for Willie Harris. By the way, I agree with you on KW taking too much heat. I'll also say he made some mistakes as well, some very big mistakes, but he's done good too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molto Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 clujer, you are right. the performance on the field affects team chemistry, good and bad. you are also right in saying this team is better than the 2000 team. BUT, let me say this, the 2000 team was a 85 win at best. we got very lucky that year thanks to the career years by Perry, Valentin, Sirotka, Eldred (well, compared to his last 3-4 years before then), Baldwin, Wunsch. Our rotation was very questionable going, but turned into one of the deepest in baseball. the offense was great, but like 2001 and 2002, couldn't score when it really counted. Plus, they recieved a lot of breaks. I can't understand how people say he dismantled this team or dried up our farm system. Siro is in the minors with the Cubs, Parque is somewhere (forgot where), Eldred is with the Cards, coming off injury and retirement, and Baldwin is stuck at the bottom of the rotation. the reason our minors are dry is because people come up. when you have top prospect, eventually they are either going to come up and perform, thus no longer being prospects, or they are going to fade away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 22, 2003 Author Share Posted February 22, 2003 The only talented players he traded away were Kip, Fogg, Myette(Sucked in Texas), and Bradford. Thats about all I can think of. Oh ya, put Guerrier in there, he's got a shot at developing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 I think this team has a lot of potential in ability and in chemistry. I liked KW addressing the chemistry question at SoxFest and saying that is a consideration on who we sign. With Royce "the Choice" gone the potential for team chemistry knows no limits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 KW takes way too much heat. :fyou All the heat he gets is deserved though for the way he's GM'ed this team with the exception of this offseason..... and that's also debatable (see; Mark Buehrle). He has 3 times the bad moves as he does the good ones. And let's not forget how he is reportedly handling the whole Mark Buehrle situation. Signing Buehrle to a Zito-type deal should be KW's priority. Supposedly lying the the fans telling us he offered MB a "Zito-esque" contract that MB refused, when, in actuality, he offered MB the hundred thousand part in Zito's contract and not the million part is bulls***. KW still has much more to prove to show he is a competant GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 KW takes way too much heat. :fyou All the heat he gets is deserved though for the way he's GM'ed this team with the exception of this offseason..... and that's also debatable (see; Mark Buehrle). He has 3 times the bad moves as he does the good ones. And let's not forget how he is reportedly handling the whole Mark Buehrle situation. Signing Buehrle to a Zito-type deal should be KW's priority. Supposedly lying the the fans telling us he offered MB a "Zito-esque" contract that MB refused, when, in actuality, he offered MB the hundred thousand part in Zito's contract and not the million part is bulls***. KW still has much more to prove to show he is a competant GM. I remember hearing that he offered Buehrle a CC Sabathia-like contract (something like $9M for 4 years). That's always been the Sox "policy", though. They never give pitchers large contracts for some reason. I hope they break the mold this time, though, because they need to keep Buehrle and Colon if they want to contend beyond 2003. Keeping both will cost the Sox about $15-$20M per year. BTW, Kenny can't just offer someone millions of dollars -- the man signing the check has to OK it, and that man is not Kenny Williams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 BTW, Kenny can't just offer someone millions of dollars -- the man signing the check has to OK it, and that man is not Kenny Williams. True. Us KW bashers know this . We give him flack for lying to the fans..... reportedly of course. KW backers will say that KW offered MB a Zito-esque contract..... only he offered MB the type of money that Zito is getting on the front end of his contract. KW is playing the semantics game here. KW should just come out and tell us like it is and not try to pass something off that isn't completely there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 BTW, Kenny can't just offer someone millions of dollars -- the man signing the check has to OK it, and that man is not Kenny Williams. True. Us KW bashers know this . We give him flack for lying to the fans..... reportedly of course. KW backers will say that KW offered MB a Zito-esque contract..... only he offered MB the type of money that Zito is getting on the front end of his contract. KW is playing the semantics game here. KW should just come out and tell us like it is and not try to pass something off that isn't completely there Guess I'm not up on the news... What did Kenny SAY he offered Mark? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 BTW, Kenny can't just offer someone millions of dollars -- the man signing the check has to OK it, and that man is not Kenny Williams. True. Us KW bashers know this . We give him flack for lying to the fans..... reportedly of course. KW backers will say that KW offered MB a Zito-esque contract..... only he offered MB the type of money that Zito is getting on the front end of his contract. KW is playing the semantics game here. KW should just come out and tell us like it is and not try to pass something off that isn't completely there Guess I'm not up on the news... What did Kenny SAY he offered Mark? CWsox would be better able to explain the actual numbers for you. He is a friend of the Buehrle's and what I know of the situation is because of what he posted here and when we talked to Buehrle's bro at SoxFest. Basically, without getting into the actual numbers (because I don't know them), say Zito's contract is configured like this: First year: 650,000 Second year: 875,000 Third Year: 3 million Fourth Year: 5 million (w/a CY Young bonus of 1 million) KW offered Buehrle this: First year: 650,000 Second year: 825,000 No provision for a third or fourth year or a bonus of any kind during either year..... and KW says he offered MB a "Zito-esque" contract. True..... he did for years one and two but nothing for the longterm. KW saying he offered MB Zito money is a half truth and is making MB look like a greedy prick when, in actuality, he's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 CWsox would be better able to explain the actual numbers for you. He is a friend of the Buehrle's and what I know of the situation is because of what he posted here and when we talked to Buehrle's bro at SoxFest. Basically, without getting into the actual numbers (because I don't know them), say Zito's contract is configured like this: First year: 650,000 Second year: 875,000 Third Year: 3 million Fourth Year: 5 million (w/a CY Young bonus of 1 million) KW offered Buehrle this: First year: 650,000 Second year: 825,000 No provision for a third or fourth year or a bonus of any kind during either year..... and KW says he offered MB a "Zito-esque" contract. True..... he did for years one and two but nothing for the longterm. KW saying he offered MB Zito money is a half truth and is making MB look like a greedy prick when, in actuality, he's not. Hmmm...Garland and Wright are a pretty good 3/4 combo. However, if Sox management doesn't add some zeroes to the paychecks of Buehrle and Colon soon, they'll be a pretty weak 1/2 combo soon. I know that Mark can't become a free agent until 2006 (I think), but that's not the point. If he's putting together solid seasons (he's 2 for 2 so far), he should be compensated. Besides that, he's going to kill the Sox in arbitration if he continues to win nearly 20 games with an ERA in the 3's. The Sox should wise up and pay him and keep him happy. Then sign Colon before the Yanks or BoSox can get their claws into him this coming off-season. put a Sox hat on this little guy and have him be the Sox '03 team logo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 I know that Mark can't become a free agent until 2006 (I think) Correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Besides that, he's going to kill the Sox in arbitration if he continues to win nearly 20 games with an ERA in the 3's. Mark Buehrle's banking his health on it. That's why he told KW to stuff his Zito-dollars contract Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 The Sox should wise up and pay him[MB] and keep him happy. Then sign Colon before the Yanks or BoSox can get their claws into him this coming off-season. From God's mouth to KW's ears I hope - as well as that dude who is KW's asistant whatever his name is who got so mad at me at SoxFest for saying out loud the first sentence of clujers that I quoted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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