Soxplosion Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 I recently read a 30 year old commentary from a Canadian man named Gordon Sinclair. It was possibly one of the best things Ive ever read. Youre not going to find any links on it but maybe later if I have enough time I copy it down on here for you all to see. This post is not to bash those who think differently from me but it is to make you think. Sinclairs main point in the article was that Americans always rush to the aid of other countries but no one has ever come to our aid since the French did in the Revolutionary War. Some people here think we should go and help all these countries out. Why exactly should we do that? We helped the French out before and they got up and spit in our face. The papers in these countries that we have helped, rather than thank us, kick us around. In no way am I saying we need to recieve to give. But come on, isnt it a bit hypocritical that all these countries think when they fall down we have to come pick them up but when we fall down they can leave us there? Yes it is. Who made it our duty to save everyone else? Sinclair refers to the Americans as "the most generous but possibly least appreciated people on Earth". Hes darn right. God bless you Gordon Sinclair! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleM23 Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 What wars have we gotten ourselves into that's warranted anyone coming to our aid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted February 21, 2003 Author Share Posted February 21, 2003 What? Are you talking that with wars like Vietnam we dont deserve anyone elses help? If you are, I say youre nuts but Im not sure so I wont comment until you clarify that. Personally, I dont think this nation needs anyone elses help but some people seem to think we should help everyone else even tho no matter what happens they would never help us... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleM23 Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 What? Are you talking that with wars like Vietnam we dont deserve anyone elses help? If you are, I say youre nuts but Im not sure so I wont comment until you clarify that. Personally, I dont think this nation needs anyone elses help but some people seem to think we should help everyone else even tho no matter what happens they would never help us... You're kidding, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 I recently read a 30 year old commentary from a Canadian man named Gordon Sinclair. It was possibly one of the best things Ive ever read. Youre not going to find any links on it but maybe later if I have enough time I copy it down on here for you all to see. This post is not to bash those who think differently from me but it is to make you think. Sinclairs main point in the article was that Americans always rush to the aid of other countries but no one has ever come to our aid since the French did in the Revolutionary War. Some people here think we should go and help all these countries out. Why exactly should we do that? We helped the French out before and they got up and spit in our face. The papers in these countries that we have helped, rather than thank us, kick us around. In no way am I saying we need to recieve to give. But come on, isnt it a bit hypocritical that all these countries think when they fall down we have to come pick them up but when we fall down they can leave us there? Yes it is. Who made it our duty to save everyone else? Sinclair refers to the Americans as "the most generous but possibly least appreciated people on Earth". Hes damn right. God bless you Gordon Sinclair! i read the transcripts of what sinclair said..it ws written at a time when american was really taking heat both from inside and outside the US...i believe he made his statement when the US decided it was time to pull out of vietnam in 73 i think...i wish i kept a copy of it...it was a great speech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted February 21, 2003 Author Share Posted February 21, 2003 I have it in a book. I love it. Its my favorite thing Ive read. Gordon Sinclair is a genius. Buy the book Chicken Soup for the Soul of America which you can find in about any bookstore and the articles in the book. Tribute to America, the last thing in the World Responds section. Hope that helps you find it baggs... And doublem, what do you think Im kidding about? Im dead serious. I dont think we need foreign help. We can fight a war in Iraq without, say, Frances help (Im not sure how such a bunch of morons could help anyways but whatever) and we can do whatever we want without foreign help. Im not ripping you for being a liberal so dont rip me for being a conservative... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleM23 Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 And doublem, what do you think Im kidding about? Im dead serious. I dont think we need foreign help. We can fight a war in Iraq without, say, Frances help (Im not sure how such a bunch of morons could help anyways but whatever) and we can do whatever we want without foreign help. Im not ripping you for being a liberal so dont rip me for being a conservative... I don't care how you lean politically, you still can't be serious is you're comparing America's situation in Vietnam with France's in World War II. Apples and oranges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted February 21, 2003 Author Share Posted February 21, 2003 And doublem, what do you think Im kidding about? Im dead serious. I dont think we need foreign help. We can fight a war in Iraq without, say, Frances help (Im not sure how such a bunch of morons could help anyways but whatever) and we can do whatever we want without foreign help. Im not ripping you for being a liberal so dont rip me for being a conservative... I don't care how you lean politically, you still can't be serious is you're comparing America's situation in Vietnam with France's in World War II. Apples and oranges. Im not comparing the two and Im truly sorry if I led you to believe that. Im just saying why should we help other countries when they would never help us. Who put us in charge of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleM23 Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 And doublem, what do you think Im kidding about? Im dead serious. I dont think we need foreign help. We can fight a war in Iraq without, say, Frances help (Im not sure how such a bunch of morons could help anyways but whatever) and we can do whatever we want without foreign help. Im not ripping you for being a liberal so dont rip me for being a conservative... I don't care how you lean politically, you still can't be serious is you're comparing America's situation in Vietnam with France's in World War II. Apples and oranges. Im not comparing the two and Im truly sorry if I led you to believe that. Im just saying why should we help other countries when they would never help us. Who put us in charge of that? Well, as we all know, France did help us, so there goes that point. And the only reason we've ended up in any other war isn't because we wanted to help out others, its because we've either been attacked (War of 1812, World War II, Spanish-American-Filipino-Cuban War (probably didn't get attacked, but we thought we did), Vietnam War (though we all know now the Gulf of Tonkin incident never actually happened)) or we felt threatened enough to engage in combat (World War I, Persian Gulf War, Korean War)... The United States has never entered combat solely to "lend a hand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 to say no one has ever come to our aid is bulls***. do we not remember the outpouring of love and sympathy after September 11th from all over the world? Not that we were attacked but other nations' tropops were in Nam with us, including Australia. In 2001 and 2002, so ong ago of course it is forgotten, many other nations sent troops with ours to Afghanistan. (Remember the US plane that dropped on a bomb on Canadian soldiers and killed, what 4 or 6 of them?) Other nations' trops were along side of ours as peacekeepers in Boisnia in the 90s. I cannot think of anyh other war in which we needed to have anyone come to our side given circumstances other than allies we had - what were nations supposed to rush in to join us in the Mexican American War? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted February 21, 2003 Author Share Posted February 21, 2003 And doublem, what do you think Im kidding about? Im dead serious. I dont think we need foreign help. We can fight a war in Iraq without, say, Frances help (Im not sure how such a bunch of morons could help anyways but whatever) and we can do whatever we want without foreign help. Im not ripping you for being a liberal so dont rip me for being a conservative... I don't care how you lean politically, you still can't be serious is you're comparing America's situation in Vietnam with France's in World War II. Apples and oranges. Im not comparing the two and Im truly sorry if I led you to believe that. Im just saying why should we help other countries when they would never help us. Who put us in charge of that? Well, as we all know, France did help us, so there goes that point. And the only reason we've ended up in any other war isn't because we wanted to help out others, its because we've either been attacked (War of 1812, World War II, Spanish-American-Filipino-Cuban War (probably didn't get attacked, but we thought we did), Vietnam War (though we all know now the Gulf of Tonkin incident never actually happened)) or we felt threatened enough to engage in combat (World War I, Persian Gulf War, Korean War)... The United States has never entered combat solely to "lend a hand." Im not talking about wars. Im talking about financial and humanitarian aid. When disasters strike our country (like tornadoes, not Sept 11, with all the different nationalities that dies you could probably consider that an international incident) nobody helps but when such disasters strike other countries were always one of the first to help. And cw, theres no need to get bent out of shape about this. Countries can send their troops to war with us but these same countries dont help us with what happens here while we always help them over there. And doub, can you tell me about the Gulf of Tonkin? What happened and why dont you believe it? Im not putting you on the spot, I just believe we could have a much better discussion if everyone was equally informed. Thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Psycho, I think we do get help when those things happen. We have received help from other countries after natural diasters and after terrorism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 The Gulf of Tonkin was at the start of the Vietnam "police action". Our government said that some of the Communist Vietnamese fired on U.S. ships in the Gulf of Tonkin and it was that event that influenced Congress to give our President power to wage the Vietnam police action. Later on, it was discovered that this attack in the Gulf of Tonkin never happened. The government lied to the public to get us involved in Vietnam. That, in a very brief nutshell, is the Gulf of Tonkin event from 'Nam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleM23 Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 And doub, can you tell me about the Gulf of Tonkin? What happened and why dont you believe it? Im not putting you on the spot, I just believe we could have a much better discussion if everyone was equally informed. Thanks... In August 1964, two U.S. destroyers, the USS C Turner Joy and USS Maddox were in the Gulf of Tonkin, off the coast of Vietnam and they reported that they had been fired upon by North Vietnamese torpedo boats. Because of this "attack," Congress allowed President Johnson to, "take all neccessary steps, including the use of armed forces defend their freedom." This allowed Johnson to escalade the conflict into a full-blown war until 1970 (with Richard Nixon in office) when evidence surfaced that the Johnson administration conspired to decieve Congress into giving him a resolution to carry out war. Most historians today agree that the two destroyers weren't hit by torpedos, but probably by dolphins... If anything. http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChr...GulfTonkin.html That site has a pretty good little explanation about the whole thing, though, it pretty much says what I just did, but elaborates on the whole thing a little bit more than I'm able to remember right now. On a side note, that whole story sounds a little familiar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 On a side note, that whole story sounds a little familiar. Same here. But our government would never lie to it's people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted February 21, 2003 Author Share Posted February 21, 2003 Psycho, I think we do get help when those things happen. We have received help from other countries after natural diasters and after terrorism. No we dont. France and countries like that just like to insult us when stuff like that happens. They always enjoy insulting us. When we helped them out in 1946 Sinclair said he was there to see Americans get "insulted and swindled in the streets". I lived in Spain. Everybody there hated the US. They had never been here, they didnt know anything about us but they just didnt like us. Even tho my Spanish colleagues thought they were superior, they simply hated us because they knew we were superior. They knew that if America ever got sick of seeing them they would be instantly wiped off the face of the planet. Thats why all foreign countries who hate us hate us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Psycho, my friend, I disagree respectfully with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted February 21, 2003 Author Share Posted February 21, 2003 The Gulf of Tonkin was at the start of the Vietnam "police action". Our government said that some of the Communist Vietnamese fired on U.S. ships in the Gulf of Tonkin and it was that event that influenced Congress to give our President power to wage the Vietnam police action. Later on, it was discovered that this attack in the Gulf of Tonkin never happened. The government lied to the public to get us involved in Vietnam. That, in a very brief nutshell, is the Gulf of Tonkin event from 'Nam. Thanks for this. I agree that Vietnam probably just started for the sake of ridding the planet of Communism. And another thought, I think all the major wars weve been in since WWI you can say are related. WWI happened and gave birth to the Nazi movement in Germany. WWII ended with the Americans and Russians in a political stalemate. Our hatred of Communism gave way to the Korean and Vietnam Wars. Then, in 1979, due again to our hatred of Communism, we backed up the Afghans in the Afghan War. This brought bin Laden to Afghanistan and when we left the Afghans in the dirt (ok, so were not perfect) after the Soviets pulled out bin Laden had an extreme anti American hatred. So then we had the Persian Gulf War and bin Laden hated our new Mid East policy. He carried out the atrocities on Sept 11 and now were in the War on Terror. Just an interesting thought of recent world history... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted February 21, 2003 Author Share Posted February 21, 2003 Psycho, my friend, I disagree respectfully with you. OK, well I disagree with you too but we live in the greatest nation on Earth and we have the great right to say what we want so you are totally free to think what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Psycho, my friend, I disagree respectfully with you. OK, well I disagree with you too but we live in the greatest nation on Earth and we have the great right to say what we want so you are totally free to think what you want. "To those who scare peace loving people with phantoms of lost liberty my message is: Your tactics only aid terrorists for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve." - Attorney General John Ashcroft So yeah, with an asshat like that in power...I really see our civil liberties consistantly getting flushed down the s***ter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted February 21, 2003 Author Share Posted February 21, 2003 Psycho, my friend, I disagree respectfully with you. OK, well I disagree with you too but we live in the greatest nation on Earth and we have the great right to say what we want so you are totally free to think what you want. "To those who scare peace loving people with phantoms of lost liberty my message is: Your tactics only aid terrorists for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve." - Attorney General John Ashcroft So yeah, with an asshat like that in power...I really see our civil liberties consistantly getting flushed down the s***ter. Would you mind explaining that quote? Im unsure what Ashcroft is saying. Thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 And another thought, I think all the major wars weve been in since WWI you can say are related. WWI happened and gave birth to the Nazi movement in Germany. WWII ended with the Americans and Russians in a political stalemate. Our hatred of Communism gave way to the Korean and Vietnam Wars. Then, in 1979, due again to our hatred of Communism, we backed up the Afghans in the Afghan War. This brought bin Laden to Afghanistan and when we left the Afghans in the dirt (ok, so were not perfect) after the Soviets pulled out bin Laden had an extreme anti American hatred. So then we had the Persian Gulf War and bin Laden hated our new Mid East policy. He carried out the atrocities on Sept 11 and now were in the War on Terror. Just an interesting thought of recent world history... And Psycho, there you are on the right track. All wars have begat more wars. War has never solved anything. The harvest of war may appear to be peace but it is only transient. There are other ways, there are better ways, there are more effective ways, more real ways than war to bring at least a state of co-existence. Had we followed through in Afgahanistan, istead of abandoning that nation in 1989, the Taliban and those they harbored would have had not come into being or had any effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Psycho, my friend, I disagree respectfully with you. OK, well I disagree with you too but we live in the greatest nation on Earth and we have the great right to say what we want so you are totally free to think what you want. "To those who scare peace loving people with phantoms of lost liberty my message is: Your tactics only aid terrorists for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve." - Attorney General John Ashcroft So yeah, with an asshat like that in power...I really see our civil liberties consistantly getting flushed down the s***ter. Would you mind explaining that quote? Im unsure what Ashcroft is saying. Thanks... He is saying that anybody who comes out and says that the searches without warrants et al. that are totally unconstitutional is just scaring the American public. He is essentially saying that those who don't agree with the administration's total rap of the Constitution, then they are aiding terrorists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted February 21, 2003 Author Share Posted February 21, 2003 And another thought, I think all the major wars weve been in since WWI you can say are related. WWI happened and gave birth to the Nazi movement in Germany. WWII ended with the Americans and Russians in a political stalemate. Our hatred of Communism gave way to the Korean and Vietnam Wars. Then, in 1979, due again to our hatred of Communism, we backed up the Afghans in the Afghan War. This brought bin Laden to Afghanistan and when we left the Afghans in the dirt (ok, so were not perfect) after the Soviets pulled out bin Laden had an extreme anti American hatred. So then we had the Persian Gulf War and bin Laden hated our new Mid East policy. He carried out the atrocities on Sept 11 and now were in the War on Terror. Just an interesting thought of recent world history... And Psycho, there you are on the right track. All wars have begat more wars. War has never solved anything. The harvest of war may appear to be peace but it is only transient. There are other ways, there are better ways, there are more effective ways, more real ways than war to bring at least a state of co-existence. Had we followed through in Afgahanistan, istead of abandoning that nation in 1989, the Taliban and those they harbored would have had not come into being or had any effect. Thank you cw. I think bin Laden and the rest of his thugs were evil from the beginning of time and I think just ditching him didnt make him any less evil but he had no right to carry out these attacks. He will recieve his punishment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted February 21, 2003 Author Share Posted February 21, 2003 Psycho, my friend, I disagree respectfully with you. OK, well I disagree with you too but we live in the greatest nation on Earth and we have the great right to say what we want so you are totally free to think what you want. "To those who scare peace loving people with phantoms of lost liberty my message is: Your tactics only aid terrorists for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve." - Attorney General John Ashcroft So yeah, with an asshat like that in power...I really see our civil liberties consistantly getting flushed down the s***ter. Would you mind explaining that quote? Im unsure what Ashcroft is saying. Thanks... He is saying that anybody who comes out and says that the searches without warrants et al. that are totally unconstitutional is just scaring the American public. He is essentially saying that those who don't agree with the administration's total rap of the Constitution, then they are aiding terrorists. Apu, I dont like your views and Ill probably never agree with you over anything political but to say you support terrorism is ludicrous. Ashcroft is an idiot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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