NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 His OBP has got to be soaring these days. Seems like every game he draws like 2-3 walks nowadays. Maybe he could teach Jose Valentin a thing or 2 about patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 I don't think the pope could teach Jose about patience! :fyou Jose! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 I have REALLY enjoyed Paulie's approach at the plate these days. He seems to be seeing the ball really well and for the most part he's laying off the bad pitches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 There is a much bigger confidence this season. He really seems to be relaxed up there. His pitch taking this year has been the best I have ever seen him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbaho-WG Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Yeah, let's slam a guy who has averaged over 50 walks for about the past 8 years and has a K:BB ratio of a respectable 2:1. We're smart people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 His OBP has got to be soaring these days. Seems like every game he draws like 2-3 walks nowadays. Maybe he could teach Jose Valentin a thing or 2 about patience. Could you get of Jose's jockstrap for just 1 day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Prawn Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Just saw this - gotta say his walks have been shocking me too the last few weeks (or so). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Fantasy value is raising too I was really down on Paul when he fell into that slump, but he has played great lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 His OBP has got to be soaring these days. Seems like every game he draws like 2-3 walks nowadays. Maybe he could teach Jose Valentin a thing or 2 about patience. Just what I was thinking, after all, he's a piece of s***...ya his average is up, but I will not forgive someone who screwed our last season up at a chance for a world series... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Just what I was thinking, after all, he's a piece of s***...ya his average is up, but I will not forgive someone who screwed our last season up at a chance for a world series... I wouldn't blame last season on Konerko. He actually played better in the second half when we really needed him. The asshole of 2003 would have to be Billy Koch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Lopez Ghost (old) Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Paulie has discovered it's impossible to walk into a double play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Paulie has discovered it's impossible to walk into a double play. yet he still does it on the basepaths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Konerko, Lee, Thomas and Ordonez have very respectable walk to strikeout ratios this year. f***in Ozzie making everyone comfortable nowadayz.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 His OBP has got to be soaring these days. Seems like every game he draws like 2-3 walks nowadays. Maybe he could teach Jose Valentin a thing or 2 about patience. Agreed. While he's at it, he could also teach Valentin how to hit into 28 double plays, how to base-clog and how to have a lateral range of a GOP mandate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Agreed. While he's at it, he could also teach Valentin how to hit into 28 double plays, how to base-clog and how to have a lateral range of a GOP mandate. Then Jose can teach PK how to make 10 errors, have 2-4 strike out games, and have an OBP of .326. Just messin' with ya Brando. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Then Jose can teach PK how to make 10 errors, have 2-4 strike out games, and have an OBP of .326. Just messin' with ya Brando. Nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Then Jose can teach PK how to make 10 errors, have 2-4 strike out games, and have an OBP of .326. Just messin' with ya Brando. And yet Jose is still a better defensive SS than Konerko - a defensive 1B when everything (anticipation, range, arm, aggressivenes, etc) is tallied up....Nobody cares about strike-outs and his OBP is 331. Do me a favor, stop while you're behind, or I might just start subtracting bases Konerko costs you with GIDP and base-running from his OBP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 I wouldn't blame last season on Konerko. He actually played better in the second half when we really needed him. The asshole of 2003 would have to be Billy Koch. and just how did Billy Koch cost us anything last year? He wasnt even the closer the entire year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 and just how did Billy Koch cost us anything last year? He wasnt even the closer the entire year If had had saved the 4 games he blew we would have had the division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted May 31, 2004 Author Share Posted May 31, 2004 Agreed. While he's at it, he could also teach Valentin how to hit into 28 double plays, how to base-clog and how to have a lateral range of a GOP mandate. Maybe Valentin can teach Konerko how to throw the ball into the stands from the SS position and while he's at it teach him how to kick some ground balls around like he's playing soccer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Maybe Valentin can teach Konerko how to throw the ball into the stands from the SS position and while he's at it teach him how to kick some ground balls around like he's playing soccer. Considering Rangeless, Slow-Reacting Paulie probably allows 10 extra "doubles" and 10 "singles" that should be OUTS per season....That's roughly 30 extra bases allowed over the league average for 1B in 2003. Of course, it doesn't include all the times slow-footed Paulie failed to track down a foul ball, allowing the opposing batter to stay alive....Shall we say at least another 10 plays? We know from same Total Defense stats that Valentin actually comes out on the PLUS side as far as bases saved/bases allowed go over an average SS. In 2003 alone, he was ahead by 15 bases OVER the league average - and that included all the errors, naturally. So on defense alone, Valentin was anywhere from 20 to 30+ bases better than Paulie last year. Put that in your crack pipe and smoke it. Now DP....last year Valentin had 5 GIDP and Paulie had 28. That's 23 extra outs Paulie "cost" the White Sox. How should we factor them into Paulie's overall production? Give him 23 errors? Take away 23 of his singles? I am open to suggestions. I am not even gonna go into base-running where Paulie costs you A LOT versus Jose over the course of the entire year because he gets the stop sign at 3rd regularly....or cannot go from 1st to 3rd on a single to RF-CF with 1 out....or cannot tag up on a medium depth fly-ball....or cannot advance on the ball in the dirt....or cannot beat a bang-bang force-out at 2nd....or never distracts a pitcher by getting a big lead at 1st and forcing that pitcher to repeatedly throw over.....etc.....Or did you think those plays don't count? Nuke if I were you, I'd quit taking little digs at Valentin at every opportunity. Half the time they don't make sense, and other times they are statistically short-sighted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbaho-WG Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 2003 Zone Ratings: Konerko: .792 Valentin: .893 2004 Zone Ratings: Konerko: .843 Valentin: .887 As we can see here, Valentin gets to more balls than Konerko, according to the ZR. Now let's incorporate errors. In 2003, Valentin had 638 total chances to field a ball. If his ZR was .893, he should have gotten to around 714 balls. Now let's just assume Valentin's errors cost 1 base and that's it: the equivalent of a single. Valentin had 20 errors, so we assume Valentin made 0 errors and 618 TC as a result. 618/714= a ZR of .866. With Konerko: He should have gotten to 1227 balls, roughly. 972 TC - 2 E= 970 TC/1227 balls=.790 ZR (adjusted ZR). .866>.790 (2003) Konerko's AdjustedZR this year would be .840, Valentin's .856. 856>840. Now remember, this is assuming each error only costs one base. I could accurately adjust zone ratings by going back to see how many bases each error cost, but with my general assumption of 1 error=1 base, you get the jist that Valentin is a better defender than Konerko, even with his high amount of errors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbaho-WG Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Even though I proved that Valentin is better defensively than Konerko, I have to say that adjusting Zone Ratings is really only plausible with players of the same position. I mean, I could say that Valentin is a better defender than Scott Rolen by adjusting Zone Ratings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 2003 Zone Ratings: Konerko: .792 Valentin: .893 2004 Zone Ratings: Konerko: .843 Valentin: .887 As we can see here, Valentin gets to more balls than Konerko, according to the ZR. Now let's incorporate errors. In 2003, Valentin had 638 total chances to field a ball. If his ZR was .893, he should have gotten to around 714 balls. Now let's just assume Valentin's errors cost 1 base and that's it: the equivalent of a single. Valentin had 20 errors, so we assume Valentin made 0 errors and 618 TC as a result. 618/714= a ZR of .866. With Konerko: He should have gotten to 1227 balls, roughly. 972 TC - 2 E= 970 TC/1227 balls=.790 ZR (adjusted ZR). .866>.790 (2003) Konerko's AdjustedZR this year would be .840, Valentin's .856. 856>840. Now remember, this is assuming each error only costs one base. I could accurately adjust zone ratings by going back to see how many bases each error cost, but with my general assumption of 1 error=1 base, you get the jist that Valentin is a better defender than Konerko, even with his high amount of errors. Cerb, ZoneRating is just a part of it, but it cannot encompass many of the plays on which Valentin excels and Konerko doesn't. Such as Kong awkwardly chasing after pop-fouls or slow reacting on line-drives that "dissect" the STAT zones and therefore do not show up in ZR. You also have to remember that Valentin has Crede who is excellent going to his left and who ends up cutting off a lot of balls in Valentin's "zone", therefore hurting Jose's ZR. Also, a generic ZR already incorporates ERRORS since nearly all of Jose's errors take place within the charted zones as they are of routine variety. So the Jose's defensive value the last couple of seasons goes WAY beyond ZR or its weighted variation. You have to see a pitching-adjusted RangeFactor (ARF), Pinto's Probabilistic Model of Range, Bill James's Defensive Shares, Ultine's ZR (UZR) and similar metrics....and only then you begin to get a complete picture. The point is well taken, though. Jose's overall defensive contribution is MUCH better than people give him credit for. Butcher my ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Even though I proved that Valentin is better defensively than Konerko, I have to say that adjusting Zone Ratings is really only plausible with players of the same position. I mean, I could say that Valentin is a better defender than Scott Rolen by adjusting Zone Ratings. I don't advise using ZR exclusively, but if you must and you want to compare players from different positions, then you can start out with ZoneRating+ which normalizes ZR against the league average. So yes, if say a CF'er is well-above the CF average and a 2B is well-below the 2B average, you can safely say that the former is "better" than the latter - even if you are gonna have to do a SHILOAD of number-crunching and guestimating in order to come up with an exact number of how many bases/outs/runs one is better than the other by. Rolen's range has slipped in the last couple of years (same as Andruw Jones and Vizquel), he's gotten slower and heavier. But he still has a gun and excellent anticipation and hands and a good range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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