There's paulie Walnuts with those walks again.

[Cerbaho-WG]

I don't advise using ZR exclusively, but if you must and you want to compare players from different positions, then you can start out with ZoneRating+ which normalizes ZR against the league average.   

 

So yes, if say a CF'er is well-above the CF average and a 2B is well-below the 2B average, you can safely say that the former is "better" than the latter - even if you are gonna have to do a SHILOAD of number-crunching and guestimating in order to come up with an exact number of how many bases/outs/runs one is better than the other by.

 

Rolen's range has slipped in the last couple of years (same as Andruw Jones and Vizquel), he's gotten slower and heavier. But he still has a gun and excellent anticipation and hands and a good range.

That's EXACTLY what I was looking for. Mucho thanks.

[Cerbaho-WG]

Also, a generic ZR already incorporates ERRORS since nearly all of Jose's errors take place within the charted zones as they are of routine variety.

 

That's exactly why I took them out and counted them as hits. But that's just being naive that every player would make no errors. One can only dream, no?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Considering Rangeless, Slow-Reacting Paulie probably allows 10 extra "doubles" and 10 "singles" that should be OUTS per season....That's roughly 30 extra bases allowed over the league average for 1B in 2003.    Of course, it doesn't include all the times slow-footed Paulie failed to track down a foul ball, allowing the opposing batter to stay alive....Shall we say at least another 10 plays?

 

We know from same Total Defense stats that Valentin actually comes out on the PLUS side as far as bases saved/bases allowed go over an average SS. In 2003 alone, he was ahead by 15 bases OVER the league average - and that included all the errors, naturally.

 

So on defense alone, Valentin was anywhere from 20 to 30+ bases better than Paulie last year. Put that in your crack pipe and smoke it.

 

Now DP....last year Valentin had 5 GIDP and Paulie had 28. That's 23 extra outs Paulie "cost" the White Sox. How should we factor them into Paulie's overall production? Give him 23 errors?  Take away 23 of his singles?  I am open to suggestions.

 

I am not even gonna go into base-running where Paulie costs you A LOT versus Jose over the course of the entire year because he gets the stop sign at 3rd regularly....or cannot go from 1st to 3rd on a single to RF-CF with 1 out....or cannot tag up on a medium depth fly-ball....or cannot advance on the ball in the dirt....or cannot beat a bang-bang force-out at 2nd....or never distracts a pitcher by getting a big lead at 1st and forcing that pitcher to repeatedly throw over.....etc.....Or did you think those plays don't count?

 

Nuke if I were you, I'd quit taking little digs at Valentin at every opportunity. Half the time they don't make sense, and other times they are statistically short-sighted.

This was a discussion about how Konerko is walking a lot lately & I took a small swipe at Valentin cause he strikes out too much. Ok fine. You're having to dig really deep to find all that stuff from last year claiming Valentin is better than Konerko but lets dissect that bit.

 

 

Considering Rangeless, Slow-Reacting Paulie probably allows 10 extra "doubles" and 10 "singles" that should be OUTS per season....That's roughly 30 extra bases allowed over the league average for 1B in 2003.    Of course, it doesn't include all the times slow-footed Paulie failed to track down a foul ball, allowing the opposing batter to stay alive....Shall we say at least another 10 plays?

 

 

Saying he allows as many as 30 total bases because he's "rangeless" is kind of a stretch because he simply doesn't get as many chances as Valentin does and how much range does a 1B man really need anyway? You have the foul line, which he's guarding half the time on one side and there's Harris or Uribe on the other side playing second base so he's pretty well covered. Either that or he's holding a runner on base and cant get to a whole lot hit to his right.

 

I watch a lot of Sox games on TV and in person & frankly I never see him looking as akward as you say. Maybe you're watching another Konerko than I am. A lot of the foul pops he cant get to end up in the stands or they are far enough out that Magglio gets there first. NICE TRY.

 

 

So on defense alone, Valentin was anywhere from 20 to 30+ bases better than Paulie last year. Put that in your crack pipe and smoke it.

 

Since nearly all that difference is based on your assumptions which are bulls*** then you can take your crack pipe back and shove it up your ass.

 

Now DP....last year Valentin had 5 GIDP and Paulie had 28. That's 23 extra outs Paulie "cost" the White Sox. How should we factor them into Paulie's overall production? Give him 23 errors?  Take away 23 of his singles?  I am open to suggestions.

 

Since I dont have last seasons stats available to me I'll look at this season instead. Konerko's batting average is 7 points higher than Valentin's. Valentin strikes out nearly twice as much as Konerko does ( 42-23 ), Konerko's on base percentage is 51 points higher than Valentin's is (.383 - .331).

 

The strikeout factor is particularly telling because Valentin has 33 fewer AB's than Konerko ( 163-130 ) If Valentin played every day the K ratio would be even more drastic.

 

Now, on to defensive stats. Comparing the fielding percentages and error counts of a SS and a 1B man is like comparing apples to oranges because those 2 positions are two totally different kinds of animal so Id rather look at how they fare amongst their own peers.

 

Valentin: Lowest fielding percentage of all MLB shortstops (.937) Second highest error count of MLB shortstops with 11 so far ( again he doesn't play every day and the leader has played in 18 more games than Valentin so Valentin is by far the leauge leader in errors per game ). So lets review. Lowest fielding percentage in the leauge and most errors per game. I didn't even bother to see where he ranks on salary for his position but I'll bet its in the top half

 

Konerko: He's about in the middle of the pack fielding percentage wise but you must then consider that his Fielding % is .995. He's made 2 errors in 46 games.

 

 

Valentin fielding percentage:.937 Valentin errors: 11 in 32 games = .34 E/Game

Konerko fielding percentage: .995 Konerko errors: 2 in 46 games = .044 E/Game

 

 

Again. You wanted to compare two players of different positions and their stats and as I have shown, your argument that Valentin is better defensively holds about as much water as a bucket with holes in it.

[AngelasDaddy0427]

When it comes to defense Jose is not a bad player at all.

His problem is when the game isn't on the line he tends to get lazy, when he gets lazy he gets sloppy. Our problem with him now though is that even though he has been a consistant player with the bat the pattern is not something you'd want to see from anyone.

There are times he goes up there and chases pitches in the dirt and doesn't even make contact even once through the entire at bat.

While he's good to have around for his occasional pop we could certainly do better.

 

And for the record.... :fyou JOSE!

[Old Socks]

I was down on PK after last year, but he has played pretty well this year -- so far. I have no compaints about him defensively. I have seen him make several really tough plays this year. You just have to accept his slowness, because he's not faking it. He'll be here next year, too.

[BrandoFan]

This was a discussion about how Konerko is walking a lot lately & I took a small swipe at Valentin cause he strikes out too much.  Ok fine.  You're having to dig really deep to find all that stuff from last year claiming Valentin is better than Konerko but lets dissect that bit.

 

 

 

 

 

Saying he allows as many as 30 total bases because he's "rangeless" is kind of a stretch because he simply doesn't get as many chances as Valentin does and how much range does a 1B man really need anyway? You have the foul line, which he's guarding half the time on one side and there's Harris or Uribe on the other side playing second base so he's pretty well covered.  Either that or he's holding a runner on base and cant get to a whole lot hit to his right. 

 

I watch a lot of Sox games on TV and in person & frankly I never see him looking as akward as you say.  Maybe you're watching another Konerko than I am.  A lot of the foul pops he cant get to end up in the stands or they are far enough out that Magglio gets there first.  NICE TRY.

 

 

 

 

Since nearly all that difference is based on your assumptions which are bulls*** then you can take your crack pipe back and shove it up your ass.

 

 

 

Since I dont have last seasons stats available to me I'll look at this season instead.  Konerko's batting average is 7 points higher than Valentin's.  Valentin strikes out nearly twice as much as Konerko does ( 42-23 ),  Konerko's on base percentage is 51 points higher than Valentin's is (.383 - .331).

 

The strikeout factor is particularly telling because Valentin has 33 fewer AB's than Konerko ( 163-130 ) If Valentin played every day the K ratio would be even more drastic. 

 

Now, on to defensive stats.  Comparing the fielding percentages and error counts of a SS and a 1B man is like comparing apples to oranges because those 2 positions are two totally different kinds of animal so Id rather look at how they fare amongst their own peers.

 

Valentin:  Lowest fielding percentage of all MLB shortstops (.937) Second highest error count of MLB shortstops with 11 so far ( again he doesn't play every day and the leader has played in 18 more games than Valentin so Valentin is by far the leauge leader in errors per game ).  So lets review.  Lowest fielding percentage in the leauge and most errors per game.  I didn't even bother to see where he ranks on salary for his position but I'll bet its in the top half

 

Konerko: He's about in the middle of the pack fielding percentage wise but you must then consider that his Fielding % is .995.  He's made 2 errors in 46 games.

 

 

Valentin fielding percentage:.937    Valentin errors: 11 in 32 games = .34 E/Game

Konerko fielding percentage: .995      Konerko errors: 2 in 46 games = .044 E/Game

 

 

Again.  You wanted to compare two players of different positions and their stats and as I have shown, your argument that Valentin is better defensively holds about as much water as a bucket with holes in it.

 

Boy, was that weak.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

 

Boy, was that weak.

What's really funny about all this is that you took a little swipe about Valentin's excessive strikeouts and blew it up into that rant of yours.

 

As I have shown your argument is full of s***. Have a nice day dumbass.

[BrandoFan]

As I have shown your argument is full of s***. Have a nice day dumbass

 

You have shown jack s*** - other than your primitive understanding of what Total Defense (or Total Offense for that matter - thanks for glossing over GIDP and baserunning aspects, to say nothing of pretty much the entire 2003 season which was what Cerbaho and I analyzed, in addition to 2004....Did you think I wouldn't notice?) is.

 

"How much range does a 1B really need?" Priceless.

 

For 2003

 

Here we go

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

You have shown jack s*** - other than your primitive understanding of what Total Defense (or Total Offense for that matter - thanks for glossing over GIDP and baserunning aspects, to say nothing of pretty much the entire 2003 season which was what Cerbaho and I analyzed, in addition to 2004....Did you think I wouldn't notice?) is.

 

"How much range does a 1B really need?"  Priceless.

 

If you needed 2003 numbers, you could have asked.

Lets look at that really quick then.

 

Valentin has 1 GIDP this season to Paulie's 5. If they had the same number of AB's the ratio would be more like 2-5. That's 3 more outs.

 

Valentin has struck out 19 more times than Konerko has and again his OBP is .50 points less than Konerko's, so who's costing who outs?

 

 

I will admit Konerko had a bad 1st half last season & that's probably where a lot of the bad data for Konerko came from & that's without the benefit of a month by month analysis of his stats.

[BrandoFan]

You wanted Defense for 2003?

 

Here's the basic stuff

Some more

 

 

Btw...you might want to ease up on the strike out totals since NOBODY cares about them - this isn't 1968. Adam Dunn is on pace to 215 K and Paulie couldn't carry his jock. Just a tip.

 

Finally, if you really have been watching Sox games as you say, you'd know that the "10 extra doubles and 10 extra singles Kong cost last year above the league average for 1B position" was actually a CONSERVATIVE estimate, and that once you factor in his many failures to track down medium and deep foul balls because of lack of speed, his Total Defense (whether measured by bases or outs) comes off worse. Hell, how many times has Willie bailed him out on such plays? Magglio Ordonez gets them? What?!

 

In general, just because an official scorer never gives a player an error when that player doesn't touch the ball that goes RIGHT under/next to him, doesn't mean said player didn't cost his team an out, in effect commiting a no-error ERROR.........In other words, there's MUCH more to Total Defensive Contribution that error totals or fielding %. That's just reality.

 

Paulie is slow and slow-reacting. Over the course of 155 games and god knows how many "reachable" balls, his lack of agility and quickness costs you FAR more than the 5-10 extra errors Valentin usually commits over the league average for SS position per year. That's just baseball 101.

 

Oh and funny you should mention their salary ....

[Cerbaho-WG]

Valentin has 1 GIDP this season to Paulie's 5.  If they had the same number of AB's the ratio would be more like 2-5.  That's 3 more outs.

Whoa, stop right there. Maybe Jose has had more DP opps than Konerko? Other factors?

 

Let's break out the stats once again, 2003 style.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statisti...dp_rate2003.htm

 

Jose had 96 DP opps and only hit into 9 DPs. In other words, he hit into a DP 9% of the time when given the opportunity. Konerko had 100 DP opps and hit into 28 of them. An atrocious 28% of the time! And accoring to the NETDP statistic, he was the worst batter to step up to the plate during DP situations, with a score of 14.97

 

In 2004, offensively, PK is only worth three more runs than Jose according to VORP (Value Over Replacement Player; think AAAA guy). Now, Paulie is 2nd in the AL in VORP for 1B, Jose is a respectable 5th.

 

EQA wise, PK comes up with an impressive .302, around 4th for AL 1B. Jose brings around a .288 EQA, 4th best in the American League for SS.

 

Maybe Jose is a little mroe valuable than you thought.

[BrandoFan]

Jose had 96 DP opps and only hit into 9 DPs.

 

He had 6 GIDP in 2003, not 9.

[Queen Prawn]

Never realized how tough it was to have a complimentary thread stay that way...

[YASNY]

Watching you guys throw all these stats at each is interesting and all. However, I know what my eyes tell me and that is that Jose Valentin is one of the most valuable assets on the Sox, day in and day out. This team would be MUCH worse off without Jose.

 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Cerbaho-WG]

He had 6 GIDP in 2003, not 9.

BP said 9, go figure.