Sheets or CC??

[hammerhead johnson]

I just saw Joel Piniero lose his 7th game....he is 1-7....no thanks

Haha

 

That's probably what people were saying about Buehrle last year.

 

Piniero has a s***load of talent.

 

Anyone who thinks otherwise has no business entering a discussion about pitching.

[whitesox61382]

I forgot to mention that Melvin is doing the same thing with Sheets that KW did with Maggs. He is saying that any player could be had for the right price, but he isn't going to trade Sheets unless he is just blown away by a deal. Reed and Cotts are not enough to blow Melvin away and make him seriously think about trading Sheets to the Sox. Sox fans(and even the organization as a whole) have a tendancy to overrate their player/prospects.

 

Believe it or not, but a lot of scouts/organizations don't think that highly of Reed. He had the highest batting average in the minors and put together a great year, yet some prospect ratings don't even have him in their top 20. He doesn't have any great tools, and the current major league player that he is most often compared to is Mark Kotsay. I am sorry but teams aren't lining up willing to hand over a player of Sheets calibur for an unproven player that projects to be similar to Mark Kotsay. Reed's 2003 season looks like a fluke(similar to another former minor league player of the year and overhyped prospect named Rauch). Reed looked overmatched by major league pitching during ST and has put up rather ordinary numbers in a great hitters park at AAA, so lets not pretend like Reed is the best thing since sliced bread. I wish him the best of luck and hope that he develops into a HOF calibur player with the Sox, but you have to learn to look at things from other teams perspectives and learn to take both the positives and negatives in an attempt to form a more accurate opinion.

 

I do like Cotts, but there are certainly some flaws that other teams are aware of. The most obvious is his control. He has had decent control so far, but other teams scouts/organizations are aware that it could be a long-term problem. I don't care how good your stuff is, if you can't consistantly throw strikes, than you won't be sucessful in the majors. He also lacks a secondary/offspeed pitch. At this point he is a one pitch pitcher, and while his fastball is deceptive and above average, it is not good enough by itself, especially if Cotts wants to be a starter. The lack of a secondary pitch is also a big concern in the long-term. While I have confidence in Cotts that he will develop into a solid major league pitcher, he is far from a guarantee.

 

Another thing that you have to keep in mind is that the Sox minor league system is currently considered below average. There are some prospects in the lower minors with high potential, but there are few high potential guys in the upper minors. In other words, the Sox #1/2 prospects might only be #3/4 in another organization.

 

For a young(25), cheap(2.425M), talented(2.71 ERA), and long-term(won't be a FA until 2006) it will take more than Reed and Cotts. That might be a starting point, but the Sox would likely have to throw in another one of their top prospects(like a Munoz). Someone else brought up a very good point, the asking price will probably be similar to the asking price for Colon when he was shipped to Montreal for 3 top prospects. The difference is that Sheets is younger, cheaper, has more upside, and will be around for a year longer. Just something to think about. With that said, I would do a Reed, Cotts, and Munoz for Sheets deal. You have to realize that Sheets is more than just a 2 month fix. Chances are that neither Cotts or Munoz will ever be as good as Sheets. And while Reed might develop into a solid player the Sox depth in the outfield(in both the minors and majors) makes him expendable for a pitcher of Sheets calibur. Quality starting pitching is the hardest thing to find and the #1 recipe for sucess, so adding a player of Sheets calibur would be well worth the asking price of Reed, Cotts, and Munoz.

[CWSGuy406]

I am sorry, but once again you are wrong about Maggs. The possibility of Maggs being traded in the offseason was mentioned way before Otis mentioned the possibility of him being part of the ARod deal. I even remember hearing rumors that Maggs could be part of a big deal before Otis even sniffed the possibility. He just so happened to be the 1st one to break the news, that doesn't mean that it hadn't been thought of or mentioned before. Please learn to think critically about things.

 

I am not sure about the Wunsch for Bellhorn deal, because I wasn't around during that time, but there have been MULTIPLE instances(during the past offseason) in which someone has posted a Otis rumor and said that this was the guy that mentioned to the Maggs to Boston deal so he has to be right, only to have the rumor never materialize. How many rumors does he have to mention that do not occur before you realize that you are putting your faith in a guy that has never been right?

 

Your asking me not to be stupid, but you are the one that is believing a guy that has never been right(until a rumor that he brings up happen). Which one of us is being stupid about this? Do you honestly lack the ability to critically think about the issue at hand, and better yet think for yourself? Like I said, I have some ocean front property in Kansas that is available if you are stupid enough to believe every word out of this Otis guys mouth. How old are you? 5? Please do not be so gulible. He is turning out to be the White Sox version of Peter Gammons, which is to say that he throws out a rumor every other day, yet only once in a full moon does one of the rumors actually occur(which has yet to happen for this Otis carracter). Let me ask you not to be stupid about this

OK, then find me one of these rumors since the Nomar/Maggs deal or the Wunsch/Bellhorn deal if you're so confident that these rumors pop-up so often...

 

Yes, the possibility of Maggs being traded was talked about a little bit here in the offseason, but no where near the magnitude of when Otis brought it up that they were actually talking about this huge deal (which came up three weeks later). And say what you want, Otis was the one to break the news of this all coming about. No writers mentioned it. No one from ESPN mentioned it, Otis had it right - on weeks before it ever came about.

 

Again, I want you to find me one of these so-called 'many' rumors that Otis comes up with (Other than the Nomar/Maggs and Wunsch/Bellhorn deal which he was correct about). He doesn't just pull stuff out of his ass and post it like a lot of other 'rumors'.

 

Like I said - if you don't believe him, that is fine. But don't spew out things like 'he's come up with all these rumors that are never right', when you haven't yet come up with one of these rumors. He was right about both the Nomar/Maggs deal, and about the Wunsch/Bellhorn deal. He broke both of those weeks before they happened. If you want to call that gullable, whatever. But more often than not, he's been right about these. Thus I have faith in him. Don't even try comparing him to Peter Gammons, because, that's just wrong...

[CWSGuy406]

I forgot to mention that Melvin is doing the same thing with Sheets that KW did with Maggs. He is saying that any player could be had for the right price, but he isn't going to trade Sheets unless he is just blown away by a deal. Reed and Cotts are not enough to blow Melvin away and make him seriously think about trading Sheets to the Sox. Sox fans(and even the organization as a whole) have a tendancy to overrate their player/prospects.

 

Believe it or not, but a lot of scouts/organizations don't think that highly of Reed. He had the highest batting average in the minors and put together a great year, yet some prospect ratings don't even have him in their top 20. He doesn't have any great tools, and the current major league player that he is most often compared to is Mark Kotsay. I am sorry but teams aren't lining up willing to hand over a player of Sheets calibur for an unproven player that projects to be similar to Mark Kotsay. Reed's 2003 season looks like a fluke(similar to another former minor league player of the year and overhyped prospect named Rauch). Reed looked overmatched by major league pitching during ST and has put up rather ordinary numbers in a great hitters park at AAA, so lets not pretend like Reed is the best thing since sliced bread. I wish him the best of luck and hope that he develops into a HOF calibur player with the Sox, but you have to learn to look at things from other teams perspectives and learn to take both the positives and negatives in an attempt to form a more accurate opinion.

 

I do like Cotts, but there are certainly some flaws that other teams are aware of. The most obvious is his control. He has had decent control so far, but other teams scouts/organizations are aware that it could be a long-term problem. I don't care how good your stuff is, if you can't consistantly throw strikes, than you won't be sucessful in the majors. He also lacks a secondary/offspeed pitch. At this point he is a one pitch pitcher, and while his fastball is deceptive and above average, it is not good enough by itself, especially if Cotts wants to be a starter. The lack of a secondary pitch is also a big concern in the long-term. While I have confidence in Cotts that he will develop into a solid major league pitcher, he is far from a guarantee.

 

Another thing that you have to keep in mind is that the Sox minor league system is currently considered below average. There are some prospects in the lower minors with high potential, but there are few high potential guys in the upper minors. In other words, the Sox #1/2 prospects might only be #3/4 in another organization.

 

For a young(25), cheap(2.425M), talented(2.71 ERA), and long-term(won't be a FA until 2006) it will take more than Reed and Cotts. That might be a starting point, but the Sox would likely have to throw in another one of their top prospects(like a Munoz). Someone else brought up a very good point, the asking price will probably be similar to the asking price for Colon when he was shipped to Montreal for 3 top prospects. The difference is that Sheets is younger, cheaper, has more upside, and will be around for a year longer. Just something to think about. With that said, I would do a Reed, Cotts, and Munoz for Sheets deal. You have to realize that Sheets is more than just a 2 month fix. Chances are that neither Cotts or Munoz will ever be as good as Sheets. And while Reed might develop into a solid player the Sox depth in the outfield(in both the minors and majors) makes him expendable for a pitcher of Sheets calibur. Quality starting pitching is the hardest thing to find and the #1 recipe for sucess, so adding a player of Sheets calibur would be well worth the asking price of Reed, Cotts, and Munoz.

OK - At least I think we are on, a little bit, the same page now. Let me address what you said last, about how Cotts and Reed aren't going to be enough to get Sheets. Just letting you know, Otis never said that Cotts and Reed would be enough to get Sheets. IIRC he said that it would take a package that included Reed, or Borchard, and Cotts to get Sheets. What I take from that is that Reed and Cotts would be a good portion of the deal for Sheets, but not the whole deal.

 

IMO, you undervalue our prospects. Considering Reed is battling two (I think two, but maybe it's just one) ailing wrists, yet still hitting right around .290, and still has about a .380 OBP is simply amazing, well, to me at least. If this is the worst of Jeremy Reed, I think that a lot of teams are going to be more than intrigued. Especially for teams looking for a potential 1 or 2 hitter, a table setter who could get on a good portion of the time (Around .400/.1000). Believe me, a lot of teams, especially those out of contention, would give up a starting pitcher for a PACKAGE that included Reed and Cotts.

[whitesox61382]

OK, then find me one of these rumors since the Nomar/Maggs deal or the Wunsch/Bellhorn deal if you're so confident that these rumors pop-up so often...

 

Yes, the possibility of Maggs being traded was talked about a little bit here in the offseason, but no where near the magnitude of when Otis brought it up that they were actually talking about this huge deal (which came up three weeks later).  And say what you want, Otis was the one to break the news of this all coming about.  No writers mentioned it.  No one from ESPN mentioned it, Otis had it right - on weeks before it ever came about.

 

Again, I want you to find me one of these so-called 'many' rumors that Otis comes up with (Other than the Nomar/Maggs and Wunsch/Bellhorn deal which he was correct about).  He doesn't just pull stuff out of his ass and post it like a lot of other 'rumors'.

 

Like I said - if you don't believe him, that is fine.  But don't spew out things like 'he's come up with all these rumors that are never right', when you haven't yet come up with one of these rumors.  He was right about both the Nomar/Maggs deal, and about the Wunsch/Bellhorn deal.  He broke both of those weeks before they happened.  If you want to call that gullable, whatever.  But more often than not, he's been right about these.  Thus I have faith in him.  Don't even try comparing him to Peter Gammons, because, that's just wrong...

I don't have the time to go through all of these threads finding Otis rumors, partly because I can't think of a quick and effective way to do so. Off the top of my head I believe that he spun a couple of different Maggs for Nomar rumors with different players involved. I also believe that he started an Anaheim or LA rumor(maybe both) that never formulated. The point being that he has mentioned a handful of rumors, none of which have materialized, yet you speak of him like he can't be wrong.

[credescrew24]

yeah we need someone garcia is my guy 4 us to get

[SuperSteve]

Haha

 

That's probably what people were saying about Buehrle last year.

 

Piniero has a s***load of talent. 

 

Anyone who thinks otherwise has no business entering a discussion about pitching.

I think Meche could come cheaper.

[whitesoxin']

I think Meche could come cheaper.

Meche got sent down to triple-A. I don't think he would be the right fit.

 

On a side note- Paul Abbott was released by the D-Rays today and he did well against us, why not give him a shot?

[witesoxfan]

On a side note- Paul Abbott was released by the D-Rays today and he did well against us, why not give him a shot?

Because he sucks ass?

 

 

 

About the only thing he could be good for is eating inning.

 

Personally, I say we sign Chuck Finley, and then overplay the s*** out of a Whitsnake record.

[southsideirish]

Let me ask you guys this. How many starts a season does a 5th starter get? If we go out and give up a lot for a starter then Garland or Shoenweis will become the 5th starter. Both have pitched really well this season. I don't think the 5th starter spot comes up that often to be a NEED. Now if you don't think Shoenweis or Garland can not keep it up the whole season and you want a more dependable pitcher to take their place that is a different situation. I just don't think that we should give up a lot for a player that affects only 15-20 games a year.

 

I would be more inclined to get a left handed bat or a closer before going after a 5th starter. That is just my personal opinion on the matter.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Let me ask you guys this. How many starts a season does a 5th starter get?

The 5th starter will need to make 4 starts before July 1 (KW's date for the trades last season). 5 starts before the ASB. and 8 starts before the trade deadline.

[IlliniKrush]

Let me ask you guys this. How many starts a season does a 5th starter get? If we go out and give up a lot for a starter then Garland or Shoenweis will become the 5th starter. Both have pitched really well this season. I don't think the 5th starter spot comes up that often to be a NEED. Now if you don't think Shoenweis or Garland can not keep it up the whole season and you want a more dependable pitcher to take their place that is a different situation. I just don't think that we should give up a lot for a player that affects only 15-20 games a year.

 

I would be more inclined to get a left handed bat or a closer before going after a 5th starter. That is just my personal opinion on the matter.

When the division is decided by less than 5 games, you'll want to have a player that "affects" 15-20 games. I completely disagree with you. I'd rather have Garland or Schoe as my 5, it means we have a dependable guy throwing out there. Have you seen our 5th starters so far? What do you suggest we do?

 

Besides, if the Sox want to do more than just win the division, they'll need another top of the rotation guy.

 

Only 15-20 games? I really don't know what to say to this.

[Steff]

Folks... FWIW, a friend in the Brewers organization said no way to this. He was pretty stern with the "no way".

[Gene Honda Civic]

Only 15-20 games? I really don't know what to say to this.

To expand further on both of our posts...

 

5th starter will need to make 8 starts pre- ASB

 

there's 77 games after the ASB, with only 4 off days. Skipping the 5th whenever possible makes 13, 12 if you pitch someone on 3 days rest to end the season. 15 would be the most likely scenario, with a top of the rotation type of guy, and every one pitching an equal # of games.

 

So from june 12th- October 3rd, the sox will need between 20 and 23 starts out of the 5th starter. Rain outs/double headers could call for more starts.

[IlliniKrush]

Makes sense.

 

Man, if you were a Brewers fan and they got rid of Sexson (albeit the deal has panned out well) and then Sheets? I mean, the sausage race only draws a crowd for a little while, eventually you need to keep some of your talent.

[IlliniKrush]

To expand further on both of our posts... 

 

5th starter will need to make 8 starts pre- ASB

 

there's 77 games after the ASB, with only 4 off days. Skipping the 5th whenever possible makes 13, 12 if you pitch someone on 3 days rest to end the season.  15 would be the most likely scenario, with a top of the rotation type of guy, and every one pitching an equal # of games.

 

So from june 12th- October 3rd, the sox will need between 20 and 23 starts out of the 5th starter. Rain outs/double headers could call for more starts.

20+ games is a large enough number for me, i don't know about anyone else. We're not playing a 500 game schedule.

 

The logic is just flawed. "But schoe and garland are effective and you want to make them a 5?"

 

Pure hypothetical, i'd make Loaiza our 5 and Buehrle our 4 if it was easily possible (again, hypothetical). This would allow your rotation to be absolute dynamite. You wouldn't be hurting your rotation because Buerhle was "only a 4" and Loaiza "only a 5" now. You want the best 5 man rotation possible. Buehrle, ELo, X, Garland, Schoe, is better than Buehrle, ELo, Garland, Schoe, "Sure fire loss guy"

[CWSOX45]

Folks... FWIW, a friend in the Brewers organization said no way to this. He was pretty stern with the "no way".

Hey Steff, does your friend actually work in the front office with the Brew Crew? I'm not doubting you since this obviously sounds too good to be true.

 

Otis has been pretty reliable with his info in the past, and I don't see him just pulling this out of his ass.

 

It just doesn't make sense to me that the Brewers would part with a cornerstone of their organization, especially considering they have a solid infield on the way up to the Majors by late this year and next year.

 

CWSOX45

[southsideirish]

To expand further on both of our posts... 

 

5th starter will need to make 8 starts pre- ASB

 

there's 77 games after the ASB, with only 4 off days. Skipping the 5th whenever possible makes 13, 12 if you pitch someone on 3 days rest to end the season.  15 would be the most likely scenario, with a top of the rotation type of guy, and every one pitching an equal # of games.

 

So from june 12th- October 3rd, the sox will need between 20 and 23 starts out of the 5th starter. Rain outs/double headers could call for more starts.

Good research the Cheat. I take back what I said then. I just don't want to see Garland or Sho not pitch every fifth day. I like how they are pitching and wouldn't want to see them hurt by a trade.

 

I would like to see something done about this closer situation however. Maybe Guardado AND Garcia? What would it take to get something like that done? Would you give up Honel, Reed, and Borchard for Garcia and Guardado? We would have to resign Garcia as well as Magglio and pick up the option for Guardado for me to completely like this deal, but I would do it if the Mariners would.

[DBAHO]

I think Meche could come cheaper.

Meche pitched 200+ innings last season coming back from major arm surgery, he hasn't been the same this season. I think the Mariners are regrettin pitchin him that much rite now.

[DBAHO]

Haha

 

That's probably what people were saying about Buehrle last year.

 

Piniero has a s***load of talent. 

 

Anyone who thinks otherwise has no business entering a discussion about pitching.

Exactly, the guy's still throwin a lot of strikeouts rite now, but he's just in a slump rite now like Mark Buerhle. He's got serious talent, and I think he's got betta potential than Freddy Garcia. Plus we'd be able to hang onto him for a couple of seasons at least.

[SuperSteve]

Meche pitched 200+ innings last season coming back from major arm surgery, he hasn't been the same this season. I think the Mariners are regrettin pitchin him that much rite now. 

Yeah, that's why I mentioned he could come cheaper.

[Mr. Showtime]

Hey Steff, does your friend actually work in the front office with the Brew Crew?  I'm not doubting you since this obviously sounds too good to be true.

 

Otis has been pretty reliable with his info in the past, and I don't see him just pulling this out of his ass.

 

It just doesn't make sense to me that the Brewers would part with a cornerstone of their organization, especially considering they have a solid infield on the way up to the Majors by late this year and next year.

 

CWSOX45

I don't think Otis is making it up either. People need to realize that the Sox asking about someone doesn't mean a trade is going to happen. Teams inquire all the time about big name players to see who's available.

 

I'm sure Milwaukee would have to get a great offer to move Sheets, but the Sox have the pieces to do that. Sheets will probably be looking at a nice raise this off-season as well.

[Steff]

Hey Steff, does your friend actually work in the front office with the Brew Crew?  I'm not doubting you since this obviously sounds too good to be true.

 

Otis has been pretty reliable with his info in the past, and I don't see him just pulling this out of his ass.

 

It just doesn't make sense to me that the Brewers would part with a cornerstone of their organization, especially considering they have a solid infield on the way up to the Majors by late this year and next year.

 

CWSOX45

Plays for them. And I'm not saying Otis made anything up. Perhaps his source ran with something they were not sure of. But from what I was told there is "no way in hell" (quote) Ben is avaliable.

 

Don't shoot the messenger.

[Chisoxfn]

Found this one WSI. This guy (Otis) is not a bulls***er every time he has posted something he has been right on. He says we are targeting Ben Sheets and CC Sabathia. With Garcia being the fall back. Take this for what its worth but this guy is always right on

 

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbullet...2688#post402688

Personally I think Otis had a lucky guess, plus I thought his ties were in the Boston Organization, not the WHite Sox one.

 

I also don't see Cleveland giving up CC when they are on the verge of getting things together. Cleveland may be able to win the division as soon as next year.

[Chisoxfn]

Not this Otis stuff again. How gulible are you guys? If you believe every word that comes out of this guys mouth, than I have some ocean front property in Kansas that I would like to sell. Seriously, the guy mentioned the possibility of Maggs being part of the ARod deal, and all of a sudden the guy is always right. You do realize that other sources mentioned the possibility of Maggs being part of a possible ARod trade before Otis even mentioned it. Furthermore, there have been at least 2 cases since than in which someone has brought up rumors by Otis that were never even mentioned by a major source as a possibility(paper, credible website, ect), yet alone happened. The fact of the matter is that not 1 of the rumored trades that Otis has mentioned has ever happened, and in the end that is the only thing that matters. Please take what this guy Otis says with a grain of salt, and learn to think critically about things.

 

1) Why would any team trade young, cheap, talented pitching?

2) In the remote possibility that either of these 2 guys are available, the asking price for either will be far more than Reed/Cotts or a package centered around Borchard.

 

If no deal occurs involving either Sheets or CC can we officially stop saying that Otis is always right? From my standpoint, he is throw darts at a board and hoping that one of them will stick(which has yet to happen) in an attempt to pump his chest and say I told you.

 

PS...I heard the Sox are going after Randy Johnson in a package that includes Reed, Cotts, and Rauch. Remember that I mentioned the possibility of Konerko for Perez after I read it in the papers(similar to Otis), so I must always be right. Where is the green text when you need it?

 

I'm not one to knock whether someone has inside sources or not, but I'm a sceptical person, especially when it comes to that Maggs deal. I could of said their was a possibility of Maggs going for Nomar. Their was talks for so long before Otis made his post about a possible 3 way deal with Nomar going to the Dodgers, Sox getting some pitching and the BoSox would end up getting Maggs (that was the new part).

 

Still, it wasn't something way out there.

 

However, if these rumors are true...I could give a damn who the Sox gave up. I'd hope they could keep Reed, but Honel, Borchard, and one of Anderson/Sweeney are tradeable in my book. Especially when were talking about Ben Sheets or C.C. Sabathia, two front of the rotation guys that can also be kept in Chicago for the long haul. They aren't temporarily solutions and I'd s*** my pants in excitement if the Sox got em.