Rex Hudler Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 The post below was reprinted from another topic regarding Kris Honel. The discussion got me on a soapbox about our expectations of kids to perform immediately. It is long, so for that I apologize, but I feel it should make everyone think about the reality of expecations on an 18 yr old. The thing we need to keep in mind about some of these kids, and especially ones drafted right out of HS is that they are just kids. Think of taking a random group of 30 HS seniors and what the maturity levels of them would be like. You'd find a few that are pretty mature and have a good head on their shoulders, a few that are complete idiots (maybe more than a few) and a lot that are decent kids, just immature and not wise to the ways of the world. Most 18 yr olds think they know everything. Now think of that group in terms of elite athletes. Think of thirty 18 yr olds that have been the best at their sport (and often multiple sports). They have always been the best, told they were the best and more often than not treated differently than regular, less talented players. Youth and HS coaches tend to coddle these guys. These guys usually have a tendency to be full of themselves at a higher rate than the first group. Then, take one of those kids, give him more than a million dollars. He gets written up in every baseball publication imaginable and fans immediately want to know how fast he can make it to the Big Leagues. Then, put him on the road, away from home, with other like 18 yr. olds, let him travel to different cities where he is the center of attention and where he can get laid in any city he wants, without really trying and where he can get drunk just about any time he wants. Think about all of that, and try to translate that into an 18 yr old you know. I suspect you wonder how these kids ever get anything positive accomplished. These kids read their own press clippings, drive that new $40,000 SUV and live a life most 18 yr olds would never know. The bottom line is all of these factors contribute to a pretty high rate of disappointments. Some kids take longer to mature than others. Some never do. I don't know Kris Honel and this is not geared toward him, but it is to make a point that we often think these kids are emotional machines or that they have the maturity of a 25 or 30 yr old. We shouldn't be surprised if a kid doesn't improve each and every year and has a setback early on. Some kids will get it faster than others. Some will never get it. Just keep in mind that like other kids the same age, some will make it big, and some won't. Enough rambling, I hope the point has been made...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox247 Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 So true Rex, we dont know what these high school, college, kids will do at the pros, and sometimes we overate them way too much. Theres some that will suck at amateur levels, but do fine in the pros, and vice versa. That Lebran James kid or wutever his name is, how do we know he will perform in the NBA? Real tough to expect a high school kid to do the same thing at the pro level. I bet he wont look so cocky going up against Shaq and Kobe now, will he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac9001 Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 ...That Lebran James kid or wutever his name is, how do we know he will perform in the NBA? ... Lebron James is a freak, anyone that know's anything about basketball know's he's gonna be a special player. You just don't find 18 year olds that can do what he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox247 Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 ...That Lebran James kid or wutever his name is, how do we know he will perform in the NBA? ... Lebron James is a freak, anyone that know's anything about basketball know's he's gonna be a special player. You just don't find 18 year olds that can do what he does. Not a freak until proven one. I'd like to see him play against big man shaq. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted February 23, 2003 Author Share Posted February 23, 2003 ...That Lebran James kid or wutever his name is, how do we know he will perform in the NBA? ... Lebron James is a freak, anyone that know's anything about basketball know's he's gonna be a special player. You just don't find 18 year olds that can do what he does. His odds are good, but no one knows if he will end up in jail, on drugs or what? Putting millions of dollars (several million, not just one) into an 18 yr olds hands is dangerous. You never know what you are going to get. Athletically, he is great and has a man's body at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 His odds are good, but no one knows if he will end up in jail, on drugs or what Gee...I'd go with the "...or what" part: most 18yo go on to become busts because a) their talent is overrated to begin with, B) their work ethic/drive is nonexistent because it's one thing to play ball part time in HS and another to become a gym rat and put on weight, go on diets, adhere to a rigorous schedule, etc and not many are truly willing to do all that, and c) they cannot handle the pressure of pro sport day-in-day out psychologically and get over frequent and various performance slumps...Drugs and booze is not as big a problem as you think. Honel needs to hone(l) his slider and get better control of his fastball and general mechanics; to put on more weight and muscle; to learn batters and umpies and strike zone; and must be stong enough mentally (even Kip Wells was terrible in his first year because he looked like a lost puppy out), which is easier said than done....And then of course there isn issue of injury. Just ask Barcelo or Biddle Pure talent, if ever could be measure, by and in itselfis NOTHING in the world. Putting millions of dollars (several million, not just one) into an 18 yr olds hands is dangerous Nody is giving Honel millions. All he gets is montly after-tax checks enough to pay for a good house, car and cloth. That's it. And 18 is not 12. IN most countries, 16 is audlt age. Stop babying these guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted February 23, 2003 Author Share Posted February 23, 2003 Nody is giving Honel millions. All he gets is montly after-tax checks enough to pay for a good house, car and cloth. That's it. And 18 is not 12. IN most countries, 16 is audlt age. Stop babying these guys. That comment was referring to LeBron James. You can say 18 is the adult age, but if you think that the maturity of an 18 year old is high, then you must be one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 too bad nobody thought about this when kip wells was here...we rush the guy to the majors with less than 1/2 year of professional baseball....then are shocked when he s***s his pants after some rough outings and loses confidence...give up on him and now are once again shocked that he doing so well in pittsburgh but disguise that fact with kip was a bust and would have never done that well here..he had to have a change of scenery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 You can say 18 is the adult age, but if you think that the maturity of an 18 year old is high, then you must be one I am not saying that your average 18yo is as wise and self-assured as yuour average 35yo, but then again they are not SUPPOSED to be. Most 18yo I know would EASILY be able to handle 100,000s, but then again they would never dream of such sums which is a totally different issue altogether. (I am 20 myself and am MUCH different from just 2 years ago, but that's probably because I was always a late bloomer and had to move to another part of the world when I was just 14....I am an actor and if a huge payoff comes early forn me, TRUST me, I wouldn;t blow it all on coke and ho's, lol) You are talking as though Honel is at the majors at 18., which just isn't true. Honel will not be brouyght up until 2005 if then. He will be 22+ by then. As far as victims go, Mike Caruso is a great exampe. Who know, if he was held back for extra 2 years, he might have been much stronger physically and, more importantly, mentally and might have ended up being Erstad Lite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Nody is giving Honel millions. All he gets is montly after-tax checks enough to pay for a good house, car and cloth. That's it. And 18 is not 12. IN most countries, 16 is audlt age. Stop babying these guys. That comment was referring to LeBron James. You can say 18 is the adult age, but if you think that the maturity of an 18 year old is high, then you must be one. Well, I'm 19 and I think there are plenty of people at my age that aren't mature. I like to think I'm pretty mature for my age and I do believe I could handle the situation of being handed a couple million buck signing bonus, but I don't believe there are many people out there that can handle that. There are some, but the majority can't, imho. The the thing it comes down to is which people have good people around them to support them and which just have people after there money around them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 too bad nobody thought about this when kip wells was here...we rush the guy to the majors with less than 1/2 year of professional baseball....then are shocked when he s***s his pants after some rough outings and loses confidence...give up on him and now are once again shocked that he doing so well in pittsburgh but disguise that fact with kip was a bust and would have never done that well here..he had to have a change of scenery kip this and kip that... wahhh.. face it he sucked.......deer in the headlights........lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol ..................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 too bad nobody thought about this when kip wells was here...we rush the guy to the majors with less than 1/2 year of professional baseball....then are shocked when he s***s his pants after some rough outings and loses confidence...give up on him and now are once again shocked that he doing so well in pittsburgh but disguise that fact with kip was a bust and would have never done that well here..he had to have a change of scenery kip this and kip that... wahhh.. face it he sucked.......deer in the headlights........lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol ..................... he sucked because he wasnt mature enough after 1/2 year in the minors...but kip doesnt suck anymore..and todd ritchie , there isnt a word strong enough to describe how bad he sux...we could sure use kip as our number 3 starter this year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Maybe as a European I am less used/approving of infantilization (sp?) of adults. I am sorry, but Kobe and McGrady and Garnett seem to be doing VERY well mentally and emotionally not to mention physically, and they made it WAY before Honel will. Iverson and Sprewells might be gangsters or whatever, but don't blame NBA for that. Besides, it not like they killed somebody and f***ed up their careers. Jason Williams was mature when he entered pro ball, so who do you blame for his troubles. Same for OJ. Sure, once in a while you get a kid who just implodes like Derryl Strawberry, but thene again I have a feeling he would have found a was to f*** up at 20, 25 and 30... I repeat, Honel is making mere 200 K, which after taxes and expenses, comes down to not much. I can see how a 19yo can't get carried away...Except not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 too bad nobody thought about this when kip wells was here...we rush the guy to the majors with less than 1/2 year of professional baseball....then are shocked when he s***s his pants after some rough outings and loses confidence...give up on him and now are once again shocked that he doing so well in pittsburgh but disguise that fact with kip was a bust and would have never done that well here..he had to have a change of scenery kip this and kip that... wahhh.. face it he sucked.......deer in the headlights........lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol ..................... he sucked because he wasnt mature enough after 1/2 year in the minors...but kip doesnt suck anymore..and todd ritchie , there isnt a word strong enough to describe how bad he sux...we could sure use kip as our number 3 starter this year ahh come on baggs.... who better than i to yank your chain this lovely afternoon.... kip sucked and still does... we all know it... its ok to admit.....lmao............ and i would rather have lowe back than kip..... wouldnt you ???????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Kip Wells cant possibly suck any more than Miguela Olivio who sucks microwaved donkey ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac9001 Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 When Kip win 20 games, i'll be sure to bring this subject back up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjmarte Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 When Kip win 20 games, i'll be sure to bring this subject back up I'll be waiting a very long time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 When Kip win 20 games, i'll be sure to bring this subject back up geez i hope im still alive in about 50 more years............i want to be reminded of this one lol........or at least be shown he did it finally..........lmao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted February 23, 2003 Author Share Posted February 23, 2003 I repeat, Honel is making mere 200 K, which after taxes and expenses, comes down to not much. First of all, where do you come up with that Honel is making 200K? Second, if you are trying to say that making 200K isn't much then I want your life. Most of us stiffs have to work our asses off and be happy with 30-50K. The whole point of this topic was not to talk about Kris Honel. It was merely to make a point that we sometimes expect too much too soon, from young draftees. I never meant to make them seem like lesser people, just that their lives are different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 The whole point of this topic was not to talk about Kris Honel. It was merely to make a point that we sometimes expect too much too soon, from young draftees. I never meant to make them seem like lesser people, just that their lives are different. Oh, but we definately agree on that, Rex. All I said was that I am NOT worried about 18-20yo's becoming rich as I think that "they" are not unstable and life-ignorant babies many people insist on portraying them as. Kris Honel making 20 thou a month after tax or whatever is NOT his biggest problem by far and I mentioned other things that often lead to many a tauted prospect go a-bust. That's all. The rest was kinda side-track stuff...I happen to be high on Honel, but I also realize that he has a LONG way to go before we brand him an All-Star-type pitcher, which some think is a fact. Thus if he doesn't realize his potential, people will start yelling how he shouldn't have made all that money or some such nonsense. Look at Kobe 5 years ago. Garnett. MacGrady. Mark Buerhle. Garland. They are FINE as "fine" can be. Nobody said that fame and fortune and Life is f***in' easy. Even Iverson although he isn;t the best example per se. And what does mine and yours salaries have ANYTHING to do with some young man coming into a fortune? Just because it's not an every-day occurence, doesn't mean it's going to damage his 20yo phyche, send him down the drug&depression spiral and ruin his life...Or he may end end up there anyway, without extra "help". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Maybe as a European I am less used/approving of infantilization (sp?) of adults. I am sorry, but Kobe and McGrady and Garnett seem to be doing VERY well mentally and emotionally not to mention physically, and they made it WAY before Honel will. Iverson and Sprewells might be gangsters or whatever, but don't blame NBA for that. Besides, it not like they killed somebody and f***ed up their careers. Jason Williams was mature when he entered pro ball, so who do you blame for his troubles. Same for OJ. Sure, once in a while you get a kid who just implodes like Derryl Strawberry, but thene again I have a feeling he would have found a was to f*** up at 20, 25 and 30... I repeat, Honel is making mere 200 K, which after taxes and expenses, comes down to not much. I can see how a 19yo can't get carried away...Except not. Well, I don't think Honel gets 200k a year. He got whatever his signing bonus was, minus taxes and then just gets a minor league players salary. Once he reaches the majors then he gets the minimum contract for like 2 years and then becomes arbitration eligble. I think thats how it all works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted February 24, 2003 Author Share Posted February 24, 2003 Well, I don't think Honel gets 200k a year. He got whatever his signing bonus was, minus taxes and then just gets a minor league players salary. Once he reaches the majors then he gets the minimum contract for like 2 years and then becomes arbitration eligble. I think thats how it all works. Chisoxfn, you are correct. There are a few more wrinkles than that along the way, but you got it right. Honel should only be making about $1,000-$1,200 a month, in season only. His money came in the form of a signing bonus and all had to be paid in the first year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 There are a few more wrinkles than that along the way, but you got it right. Honel should only be making about $1,000-$1,200 a month, in season only. His money came in the form of a signing bonus and all had to be paid in the first year. See I included the bonus mnoney, which I thought would be paid over time along with his salary. In any case, he is making significantly less money that I thought, so it should be even less of a problem if anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleM23 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 too bad nobody thought about this when kip wells was here...we rush the guy to the majors with less than 1/2 year of professional baseball....then are shocked when he s***s his pants after some rough outings and loses confidence...give up on him and now are once again shocked that he doing so well in pittsburgh but disguise that fact with kip was a bust and would have never done that well here..he had to have a change of scenery kip this and kip that... wahhh.. face it he sucked.......deer in the headlights........lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol ..................... Talent-wise, Kip Wells was the best pitcher we've had in a looooooooooong time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Maybe as a European I am less used/approving of infantilization (sp?) of adults. ummm..you wanna explain that one in a little more detail marlon??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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