The Beast Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 I just was thinking about this the whole day while I was watching baseball, flipping between the Cubs game and ESPN highlights. What I was thinking about was the closer situation in all teams...and so I found that we aren't the only ones without a closer, at least 26 other teams are looking for a guy. Billy Koch doesn't suck. A guy cannot go from a year in which he had about 44 saves to sucking it up last year and nearly finding his stuff with ONLY 2 blown saves this year. I wouldn't be suprised to see Takatsu in there once something happens again, but again, until that time, how much more leniance should we give Billy Koch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 I don't know where you get this idea that 26 other teams are looking for closers. Francisco Cordero in Texas, Mariano Rivera in New York, Keith Foulke in Boston, Eddie Guardado in Seattle, Joe Nathan in Minnesota...there's 5 just in the AL, and I haven't even mentioned Gagne, Graves, Mesa, Wagner(though he's DL'ing right now), Benetiz, Looper, Smoltz, Hoffman, Rhodes, Kolb, Dotel, and Baez(though I have now). Here's the main question...of all the teams in contention or that believe they still can contend(meaning you take out the Detroits, KC's, Montreal's, Arizona's), how many have a solid closer? From what I can tell, off the top of my head, there are about two teams who believe they can contend and are in contention that still have two s***ty closers closing, and, coincidentally, both teams are in Chicago. Shingo should close for us, just like Hawkins should close for the Cubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Parque Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 I don't know where you get this idea that 26 other teams are looking for closers. Francisco Cordero in Texas, Mariano Rivera in New York, Keith Foulke in Boston, Eddie Guardado in Seattle, Joe Nathan in Minnesota...there's 5 just in the AL, and I haven't even mentioned Gagne, Graves, Mesa, Wagner(though he's DL'ing right now), Benetiz, Looper, Smoltz, Hoffman, Rhodes, Kolb, Dotel, and Baez(though I have now). Exactly right. You can't win without a closer. You never know, Koch might be good as the set-up man. :fthecubs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 2004 Smoltz : 7 Saves 1 Blown Dotel : 8 Saves 2 Blown Hawkins : 3 Saves 2 Blown Guardado : 9 Saves 3 Blown Koch : 7 Saves 2 Blown Borowski : 9 Saves 2 Blown What is it you were saying again?! Perhaps some of us need to start looking at these super-closers super-statistics and realize they aren't much better than the guys we're using in Chicago. In case you don't realize it yet...not everyone can have Gagne. k-thanx for listening. -y2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Just wondering - what do you guys think of Braden Looper, the Mets current closer? I've never really seen him pitch, I was just throwing a name out there. Maybe Ooogie Urbina too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast Posted June 4, 2004 Author Share Posted June 4, 2004 Just wondering - what do you guys think of Braden Looper, the Mets current closer? I've never really seen him pitch, I was just throwing a name out there. Maybe Ooogie Urbina too? Urbina has some good stuff, he's just wanting too much money for our standards...Detroit won't do Urbina for Koch straight up but hey, its worth a try ...hell no i wouldn't do that Looper...I don't know, how has he done this year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDylan Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Billy Koch doesn't suck. A guy cannot go from a year in which he had about 44 saves to sucking it up last year and nearly finding his stuff with ONLY 2 blown saves this year. He has ONLY 8 saves. 2 blown and 8 converted is not a great ratio. And Uribe saves his ass on one of them... Koch sucks, face it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 2004 Smoltz : 7 Saves 1 Blown Dotel : 8 Saves 2 Blown Hawkins : 3 Saves 2 Blown Guardado : 9 Saves 3 Blown Koch : 7 Saves 2 Blown Borowski : 9 Saves 2 Blown What is it you were saying again?! Perhaps some of us need to start looking at these super-closers super-statistics and realize they aren't much better than the guys we're using in Chicago. In case you don't realize it yet...not everyone can have Gagne. k-thanx for listening. -y2 Thank you for posting that. I was just going to post guardado's saves, it seems everyone is in love with the guy so much but he has more blown saves then koch and please don't bring up the era's I know eddie's is better but who cares. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDylan Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 2004 Smoltz : 7 Saves 1 Blown Dotel : 8 Saves 2 Blown Hawkins : 3 Saves 2 Blown Guardado : 9 Saves 3 Blown Koch : 7 Saves 2 Blown Borowski : 9 Saves 2 Blown Perhaps some of us need to start looking at these super-closers super-statistics and realize they aren't much better than the guys we're using in Chicago. The only guy off that list that is a legit closer is Smoltz. The others you list aren't 'super' by any means. Dotel is in his first year in the ninth inning, Hawkins isn't even a closer, and Guardado has never really been considered a top tier closer by anyone except people in the AL Central. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Urbina has some good stuff, he's just wanting too much money for our standards...Detroit won't do Urbina for Koch straight up but hey, its worth a try ...hell no i wouldn't do that Looper...I don't know, how has he done this year? Well - Many sources have indicated that JR has given Kenny the OK to up the payroll if a trade came to pass. BTW - Damn, Braden Looper has been great so far this year, or so it seems, just looking at the stats: In 26 Games (About 30 IP), a 1.20 ERA, 11 Saves in 12 opportunities, 22 Strikouts, with a WHIP of 1.07. The question is, what's his contract like, and what would it take to pry him from the Mets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 He has ONLY 8 saves. 2 blown and 8 converted is not a great ratio. And Uribe saves his ass on one of them... Koch sucks, face it. Koch doesnt suck... your opinion doesnt make that true 7 saves in 9 chances... that is not a bad ratio.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 The only guy off that list that is a legit closer is Smoltz. The others you list aren't 'super' by any means. Dotel is in his first year in the ninth inning, Hawkins isn't even a closer, and Guardado has never really been considered a top tier closer by anyone except people in the AL Central. That's just my point, not everyone has a super closer...someone above me listed a hundred "closers" who are no better than who we currently have, claiming most teams have great closers. There are not many Wagners, or Gagnes in the league...I don't have to look up their stats...I was merely pointing out that a LOT of teams are in the same boat as us... -y2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDylan Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Koch doesnt suck... your opinion doesnt make that true 7 saves in 9 chances... that is not a bad ratio.. His ERA is 4.43...that's poor for any reliever that isn't a long man. His whip is a laughable 1.38, and he's given up a run 7 out of his 21 appearances. If you're a closer and you give up a run 33% of the time you're out there, you have no reason to be closing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDylan Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 That's just my point, not everyone has a super closer...someone above me listed a hundred "closers" who are no better than who we currently have, claiming most teams have great closers. There are not many Wagners, or Gagnes in the league...I don't have to look up their stats...I was merely pointing out that a LOT of teams are in the same boat as us... -y2 The numbers go beyond just blown saves. Sure, you're going to tell me all that matters is the number of converted saves is all that matters...but what kind of a toll does sweating out every ninth inning take on your team? I remember people b****ing about Keith Foulke, now people defend this clown Koch? Please. I'd give anything to reverse that trade...even give Big Mo back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast Posted June 4, 2004 Author Share Posted June 4, 2004 He has ONLY 8 saves. 2 blown and 8 converted is not a great ratio. And Uribe saves his ass on one of them... Koch sucks, face it. He can't suck that bad if he puts up numbers like that, its got to be his arm...because he blew his arm out can't mean he doesn't know how to pitch is I'm thinking of what i want to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 His ERA is 4.43...that's poor for any reliever that isn't a long man. His whip is a laughable 1.38, and he's given up a run 7 out of his 21 appearances. If you're a closer and you give up a run 33% of the time you're out there, you have no reason to be closing. But if you get the save, your ERA can be 9.00, and that doesn't matter. His job is to close games, high era or low era--hell or high water--no matter how he finds a way to get it done, his job is to get it done...period. Granted, he did not get it done two times now...but as I've clearly pointed out, aside from the VERY few teams that have closers like Wagner or Gagne, we are not much different from most teams out there. In other words...deal with it. -y2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDylan Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 He can't suck that bad if he puts up numbers like that, its got to be his arm...because he blew his arm out can't mean he doesn't know how to pitch is I'm thinking of what i want to say. He doesn't know how to pitch. He never has. He's just now learning how to pitch. He depended on a 100 MPH heater, and now that he doesn't have it, he has to pitch how the majority of pitchers need to pitch. ...With their head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 The numbers go beyond just blown saves. Sure, you're going to tell me all that matters is the number of converted saves is all that matters...but what kind of a toll does sweating out every ninth inning take on your team? I remember people b****ing about Keith Foulke, now people defend this clown Koch? Please. I'd give anything to reverse that trade...even give Big Mo back. Most of the famous closers throughout the history of baseball have done exactly that...made the fans and teams sweat it out. Look at Bobby Thigpen...no different. -y2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDylan Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Most of the famous closers throughout the history of baseball have done exactly that...made the fans and teams sweat it out. Look at Bobby Thigpen...no different. -y2 Are you suggesting Billy Koch is one of the all-time greats? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast Posted June 4, 2004 Author Share Posted June 4, 2004 Are you suggesting Billy Koch is one of the all-time greats? No, he's showing how major league closers make you sweat. Example: Jose Mesa today at Wrigley and Borowski as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDylan Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 No, he's showing how major league closers make you sweat. Example: Jose Mesa today at Wrigley and Borowski as well... It was a joke pointing out how moot his argument was. Billy Koch is a loser compared to the great closers...not to mention closers back then used to have a pair of testicles and could pitch more than one inning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox-r-us Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 beastly: Are you related to anthony or just plain stupid? I guess I was redundant there, but here is where the great Koch lies compared to other closers in ERA (19 out of of 25) Benitez 0.30 Frasor 0.76 Foulke 0.95 Guadardo 1.04 Joe Nathan 1.14 Wagner 1.20 Mesa 1.21 Rivera 1.21 Looper 1.24 Hoffman 1.89 Gagne 1.93 Francisco Coredro 2.08 John Smoltz 2.53 Baez 2.74 Graves 2.81 Dotel 3.12 Isringhausen 4.21 Rhodes 4.43 Botch 4.43 Troy Percival 5.09 Urbina 5.09 Matt Herges 5.40 Biddle 6.50 Chacon 6.75 Joe Borowski 7.40 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 On to more important issues, someone find me a cool avatar and a signature. -y2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 The numbers go beyond just blown saves. Sure, you're going to tell me all that matters is the number of converted saves is all that matters...but what kind of a toll does sweating out every ninth inning take on your team? I remember people b****ing about Keith Foulke, now people defend this clown Koch? Please. I'd give anything to reverse that trade...even give Big Mo back. Why?? So we have NO CLOSER because Foulke sure as hell wouldnt still be here.. No Foulke, no Cotts, No Koch, No Olivo If you would give anything to have that trade re done then you must have something wrong with you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast Posted June 4, 2004 Author Share Posted June 4, 2004 beastly: Are you related to anthony or just plain stupid? I guess I was redundant there, but here is where the great Koch lies compared to other closers in ERA (19 out of of 25) Benitez 0.30 Frasor 0.76 Foulke 0.95 Guadardo 1.04 Joe Nathan 1.14 Wagner 1.20 Mesa 1.21 Rivera 1.21 Looper 1.24 Hoffman 1.89 Gagne 1.93 Francisco Coredro 2.08 John Smoltz 2.53 Baez 2.74 Graves 2.81 Dotel 3.12 Isringhausen 4.21 Rhodes 4.43 Botch 4.43 Troy Percival 5.09 Urbina 5.09 Matt Herges 5.40 Biddle 6.50 Chacon 6.75 Joe Borowski 7.40 Percivals ERA, do I need say more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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