T R U Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 beastly: Are you related to anthony or just plain stupid? I guess I was redundant there, but here is where the great Koch lies compared to other closers in ERA (19 out of of 25) Benitez 0.30 Frasor 0.76 Foulke 0.95 Guadardo 1.04 Joe Nathan 1.14 Wagner 1.20 Mesa 1.21 Rivera 1.21 Looper 1.24 Hoffman 1.89 Gagne 1.93 Francisco Coredro 2.08 John Smoltz 2.53 Baez 2.74 Graves 2.81 Dotel 3.12 Isringhausen 4.21 Rhodes 4.43 Botch 4.43 Troy Percival 5.09 Urbina 5.09 Matt Herges 5.40 Biddle 6.50 Chacon 6.75 Joe Borowski 7.40 Look... Koch is our closer So b**** all you want, but next time theres a save opportunity Koch WILL be out there to get the save... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDylan Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Why?? So we have NO CLOSER because Foulke sure as hell wouldnt still be here.. No Foulke, no Cotts, No Koch, No Olivo If you would give anything to have that trade re done then you must have something wrong with you I meant with Foulke resigning...but yes, I'd rather have Keith Foulke than Cotts, Olivo and Botch. Plus, wasn't Olivo part of the Bradford trade? So essentially, it comes down to Cotts or Foulke? I'll be damned if I take Cotts over Foulke. Foulke + Big Money > Koch + Cotts + Big Money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 and if Koch wouldnt have had that first bad outing this year his era would be like 2.70 with a great whip and all that Its been posted already.. go find it if you feel like it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox-r-us Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 And here are the losers WHIP compared to others (17 out of 25) Billy Wagner 0.47 Guadardo 0.69 Foulke .79 Gagne .82 Benitez 0.88 Smoltz .89 Looper 1.04 Graves 1.06 Hoffman 1.06 Mesa 1.07 Jason Frasor 1.10 Dotel 1.12 Joe Nathan 1.14 Rivera 1.22 Dannys Baez 1.27 Isringhausen 1.37 Koch 1.38 Matt Herges 1.65 Biddle 1.67 Rhodes 1.75 Urbina 1.70 Chacon 1.83 Percival 1.87 Borowski 1.94 Mantei (DL) 1.97 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 I meant with Foulke resigning...but yes, I'd rather have Keith Foulke than Cotts, Olivo and Botch. Plus, wasn't Olivo part of the Bradford trade? So essentially, it comes down to Cotts or Foulke? I'll be damned if I take Cotts over Foulke. Foulke + Big Money > Koch + Cotts + Big Money my bad... when you said Big Mo i thought that meant Olivo and btw... im pretty sure Foulke would have been gone no matter what Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDylan Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 my bad... when you said Big Mo i thought that meant Olivo and btw... im pretty sure Foulke would have been gone no matter what I did mean Olivo. We both goofed. But I think Foulke would be happy to play for Ozzie. Now Manuel on the other hand... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 And here are the losers WHIP compared to others (17 out of 25) Billy Wagner 0.47 Guadardo 0.69 Foulke .79 Gagne .82 Benitez 0.88 Smoltz .89 Looper 1.04 Graves 1.06 Hoffman 1.06 Mesa 1.07 Jason Frasor 1.10 Dotel 1.12 Joe Nathan 1.14 Rivera 1.22 Dannys Baez 1.27 Isringhausen 1.37 Koch 1.38 Matt Herges 1.65 Biddle 1.67 Rhodes 1.75 Urbina 1.70 Chacon 1.83 Percival 1.87 Borowski 1.94 Mantei (DL) 1.97 why dont you wait to see how it all is at the end of the year and not a quarter in... you dont know whats gonna happen and I can guarantee your all gonna look stupid as hell if Koch finishes with 40 Saves an era below 2.50 but then again it could go the other way around and backfire on me.... you never know, but again... your b****ing does nothing since you have absoloutley NO PULL WHATSOEVER WITH WHAT HAPPENS IN THE CHICAGO WHITE SOX ORGANIZTAION.. I dont know how to get that through to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast Posted June 4, 2004 Author Share Posted June 4, 2004 sox-r-us...i'm not stupid I just say when you have someone that cannot be traded and has the chance to succeed. 2 blown saves? come on. give him some more time...you all koch haters really need to understand he's going no where. hear that? no where. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDylan Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 NO PULL WHATSOEVER WITH WHAT HAPPENS IN THE CHICAGO WHITE SOX ORGANIZTAION.. I dont know how to get that through to you Right. But then why be a fan? Why post here? Why even care about baseball? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 I did mean Olivo. We both goofed. But I think Foulke would be happy to play for Ozzie. Now Manuel on the other hand... True True.. too bad Ozzie wasnt around then or maybe it could have happened... either way Koch is our closer.. and until he does something that warrants him to be removed from closer, which he hasnt so far, then i am supporting him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 I did mean Olivo. We both goofed. But I think Foulke would be happy to play for Ozzie. Now Manuel on the other hand... I say BobDylan here is our new closer. This is my official nomination of BobDylan for Sox closer... We've gone over this about Koch a number of times...and we probably will a number of times more. At the moment, Koch is our closer. -y2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox-r-us Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 sox-r-us...i'm not stupid I just say when you have someone that cannot be traded and has the chance to succeed. 2 blown saves? come on. give him some more time...you all koch haters really need to understand he's going no where. hear that? no where. That does not mean we have to like him And trust me, he blows two more in the next 5 games and he will be yanked as the closer Guaranteed I hope we trade for some relief pitching Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 I meant with Foulke resigning...but yes, I'd rather have Keith Foulke than Cotts, Olivo and Botch. Plus, wasn't Olivo part of the Bradford trade? So essentially, it comes down to Cotts or Foulke? I'll be damned if I take Cotts over Foulke. Foulke + Big Money > Koch + Cotts + Big Money There is no way in hell foulke would have resigned. He's on the redsox regardless of that trade last year. I'll take koch and cotts over nothing. Koch has been fine and he'll continue to be fine, he's not an elite closer but he sure as hell isn't one of the worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Right. But then why be a fan? Why post here? Why even care about baseball? You can be a fan but the fact remains no matter how much you b**** about Koch JR isnt gonna look at this board and say "Oh man, look these kids who know nothing about running a baseball team think Koch needs to be gone.. Better do what they say" its not happening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDylan Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 I say BobDylan here is our new closer. This is my official nomination of BobDylan for Sox closer... We've gone over this about Koch a number of times...and we probably will a number of times more. At the moment, Koch is our closer. -y2 I'd be happy to close for the Sox. ...Think they could hit my 80 MPH heat? But yes, Koch is our closer. 'Nuff said? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sox-r-us Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Of course the next time he is on the mound closing for us, I will be rooting like crazy for him to succeed ......but that does not stop me right now from saying what is a fact He sucks....#s do not lie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDylan Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 You can be a fan but the fact remains no matter how much you b**** about Koch JR isnt gonna look at this board and say "Oh man, look these kids who know nothing about running a baseball team think Koch needs to be gone.. Better do what they say" its not happening Well, I recall somebody getting in contact with Mark Cuban and he said we need to embarrass (sp?) JR at the park... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 I'd be happy to close for the Sox. ...Think they could hit my 80 MPH heat? But yes, Koch is our closer. 'Nuff said? Well I think we can go on and on about this, but ultimatly it's up to Koch...if he blows two more saves, I'm sure Ozzie will make a change...but so far, he's only blown 2...and I have to say, not that I enjoy defending professional baseball players, but that Oakland game...those were some LUCKY hits off Koch in the 9th. -y2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Of course the next time he is on the mound closing for us, I will be rooting like crazy for him to succeed ......but that does not stop me right now from saying what is a fact He sucks....#s do not lie I didnt know 2 blown saves meant you sucked... you dont see people in Anaheim lobbying to trade Percivals sorry ass away and his ERA is worse than Koch... that must mean he sucks right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Let's not forget, the year Koch saved 44 games he STILL had 6 blown saves...as a matter of fact, he has YET to have a year where he blows less than 4 games! You know that BEFORE he even put on a Sox uniform. And that...as they say, is that! -y2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDylan Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 I didnt know 2 blown saves meant you sucked... you dont see people in Anaheim lobbying to trade Percivals sorry ass away and his ERA is worse than Koch... that must mean he sucks right People in Anaheim have seen Troy succeed on their team, hence patience. We traded on of the leagues best closers for one that has yet to taste a prolonged series of success for us and one that may or may not deserve to be at the back end of a contending team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 People in Anaheim have seen Troy succeed on their team, hence patience. We traded on of the leagues best closers for one that has yet to taste a prolonged series of success for us and one that may or may not deserve to be at the back end of a contending team. People on our team have seen Koch perform.. even if it wasnt on our team that doesnt matter... we know it can be done, weve seen it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted June 4, 2004 Share Posted June 4, 2004 Wow - Urbina's WHIP is awefully high for only blowing one save... I like Braden Looper! What do you want, Mets? We'll give you Koch and Rauch for Looper and Glavine, straight up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goober Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 ERAs for closers aren't important. they don't get a lot of innings so if they have one bad day, its gonna be high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted June 5, 2004 Share Posted June 5, 2004 I know i'm a bit late on this thread, but i'd just like to say that many of you are using the blown saves numbers like they are THE number to use. You are overrating that stat. Find me how many 1,2, and 3 run leads have been blown. It makes a huge difference. ERA and WHIP and BA against and Slugging against and K/BB ratio all matter. The all have to do with preventing runs, period. Sure, the stats come in smaller packages (one inning of work), but you can still span it out to evaluate a closer. Are you going to tell me Gagne's miniscule ERA "doesn't matter?" Surely not. It's indicative of how dominant he is There is more than saves/save opps when evaluating a closer. We haven't even gotten into tie games, or entering a game down one. And don't try to say that doesn't matter because it's not a save situation. It does matter - the pitcher is still in there in a one run, or tie game. That's people's argument with Borowski - "He's good in save situations, just not tie games. So it doesn't matter" It does matter. He's still losing games either way, whether he has a lead or not. Purely using saves numbers and discounting other numbers such as ERA, WHIP, etc is like using the John Kruk argument that Jarrod Washburn is the best pitcher in MLB cuz he has the most wins (this was a few weeks ago). We all know that's pure BS. There's more to a starting pitcher than Wins (it's about the 10th stat you should look at for a starter), there's more to closers than just a save/save opp number. Would you rather have a guy that has loaded the bases in 10 straight innings, but not blown a save, or a guy who hasn't allowed but one baserunner all year, and it was a HR that blew a save. One guy is 10/10 with terrible numbers, other guy is 9/10 with great numbers. Who would you take? Using an extreme example to make a point. It's obvious which one is more likely to blow a save in any given outing. Come on. Borowski's ratio is now 9/11 i believe, though i could be wrong. Hey hey, that's pretty good. Are you going to now tell me he's a "good" closer? And that you'd take him over guys with the same ratio or worse? Foul numbers. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5448 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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