Debate on Reagan policies/politics

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

So that brings up an interesting point, why do military folks back Republican presidents and (not so much) Democratic ones?

 

(I know what I would say but I want to see what others say).

Because every democtatic politician since Kennedy has done nothing but weaken and demoralize the military.

 

Johnson: He escalated Vietnam to the highest levels it reached only to tie both our arms and one leg behind our backs and let us perish in the jungle for what seemed to the troops to be nothing.

 

Carter: Allowed the military to flounder with out of date equipment and also allowed the Soviets to bully us around during his whole term.

 

Clinton: Chopped the Army in half forcing the wholesale retirement of experienced officers and NCO's who wanted to stay in and while I dont have figures on the rest of the services I'm sure they suffered similar fates. A really big reason we have to rely on our reserve forces to help deal with the missions we have today.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Our countries Veterans gave you the freedom, out nation's education system gave you an education, our nation's police and fire fighters gave you safety, our nation gave you the damn opportunity. Our laws gave you opportunity. Government inspectors gave you safe food, safe products. Government regulations gave you the assurance that your Doctor didn't just hang up a shingle. Our government gave you laws that kept others from swindling you. Our government gave you decent roads to drive down, the greatest system of fresh, safe drinking water, and efficient safe sewer treatment.

 

Typical Republican, thinks they did it on their own and everybody else had help.

Governments job is to provide basic public services such as those you mentioned & that's it. When Government gets into the business of overregulating people, taxing the hell out of them and meddles with social engineering people need to stand up and say no. Those people are the conservatives.

[Texsox]

Because every democtatic politician since Kennedy has done nothing but weaken and demoralize the military.

 

Johnson:  He escalated Vietnam to the highest levels it reached only to tie both our arms and one leg behind our backs and let us perish in the jungle for what seemed to the troops to be nothing.

 

Carter:  Allowed the military to flounder with out of date equipment and also allowed the Soviets to bully us around during his whole term.

 

Clinton:  Chopped the Army in half forcing the wholesale retirement of experienced officers and NCO's who wanted to stay in and while I dont have figures on the rest of the services I'm sure they suffered similar fates.  A really big reason we have to rely on our reserve forces to help deal with the missions we have today.

And Nixon continued the policies.

 

Why is it the military loses moral whenever they do not get everything they want? Reagan talked about the Peace Dividend after the USSR collapsed, but when the military was reduced back, the back end of the Reagan run up, the military lost moral?

 

I thought a soldiers moral would be stronger. :headshake If we reduce force we'll be demoralized. If you cut funding for any weapons we'll be demoralized. But when the Dems want to raise taxes and pay for that stuff the Gop cries too much in taxes.

 

At least the Dems have the guts to raise taxes to pay for stuff. I get demoralized when we go to war, which increases expenses and Bush decides to cut taxes. When are we going to pay for this war? 2525?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Why is it the military loses moral whenever they do not get everything they want? Reagan talked about the Peace Dividend after the USSR collapsed, but when the military was reduced back, the back end of the Reagan run up, the military lost moral?

I think I explained why the Military lost morale in the 90's pretty well. Talk to some experienced NCO's and Officers who served during the Clinton years and you will understand what I'm talking about.

[Texsox]

Standing in line marking time--

Waiting for the welfare dime

'Cause they can't buy a job

Chaos in the silk suit hurries by

As he catches the poor old ladies' eyes

Just for fun he says "Get a job"

 

That's just the way it is

Some things will never change

That's just the way it is

But don't you believe them

 

They say hey little boy you can't go

Where the others go

'Cause you don't look like they do

Said hey old man how can you stand

To think that way

Did you really think about it

Before you made the rules

He said, Son

 

That's just the way it is

Some things will never change

That's just the way it is

But don't you believe them

 

Well they passed a law in '64

To give those who ain't got a little more

But it only goes so far

Because the law don't change another's mind

When all it sees at the hiring time

Is the line on the color bar

 

That's just the way it is

Some things will never change

That's just the way it is,

That's just the way it is.

[Texsox]

I think I explained why the Military lost morale in the 90's pretty well.  Talk to some experienced NCO's and Officers who served during the Clinton years and you will understand what I'm talking about.

Cut backs are never moral boosters, but it's been happining in private enterprise for three decades, we call it "right sizing" and other euphamisms. Those companies make it through, why is the military different? Why is it the military always cries the loudest when their growth is slowed? I don't think any government agency should have a blank check.

[Texsox]

Governments job is to provide basic public services such as those you mentioned & that's it.  When Government gets into the business of overregulating people, taxing the hell out of them and meddles with social engineering people need to stand up and say no.  Those people are the conservatives.

Give me an example of an overregulation? Is social engineering the government telling people who can marry and who cannot? Is it over regulation or social engineering telling a building owner he cannot deny someone an apartment based on their gender, sexual preference, or color? Is social engineering telling an employer he cannot refuse to hire Blacks, Poles, Italians, Sox Fans, etc?

 

Is it social engineering to set a nationwide policy to immunize every person against polio? Is it over regulation to ban DDT from our environment? Both examples are programs the GOP fought against.

 

Was it social engineering to support laws that banned interracial marriage (GOP) or social engineering to strike down those laws (Dems)?

 

Nuke, do you believe, without regulations, that companies would do what is in the publics best interest?

[JUGGERNAUT]

Let me educate you to the new America since you seem confounded as to what it means to be a jackass or an elephant.

 

Jackasses: ECONOMIC conservatives, SOCIAL liberals

In English that means that don't give a jack about creating greater distribution of wealth but they care a lot about pushing an immoral agenda on the country.

 

Elephants: ECONOMIC conservatives, SOCIAL conservatives

In English that means they could give a flying F about creating greater distribution of wealth but they care a lot about preserving a moral foundation in the country.

 

That's your F'g choice when you vote. Plain & simple. If you think there's a Dem of GOP candidate who's going to give a flying F about your need to have a good paying job to provide for your family then you're a SUCKER! On the economic side they are both F'g puppets for corporate America. Hell even Gore proved that when we all learned about his oil & automotive stocks after he wrote his Environmental agenda book. Father of the Internet my ASS! What a arrogant dweeb! One of the founders of MCI is the father of the internet you dumb ass. He expanded upon Darpa Net to make tcp/ip more commercially useable & applicable. I wonder if Gore even knows what a tcp/ip header looks like.

 

The reason why there are an ever-increasing numbers of person who are getting angry over this crap is because we don't fall into the jackass or elephant mold any more. I'm not an E cons any more. It doesn't F'g work in a global economy. Anybody with a brain knows this. Some of us want real distribution of wealth.

We pay enough in taxes to where it should be doable.

[JUGGERNAUT]

Give me an example of an overregulation? Is social engineering the government telling people who can marry and who cannot? Is it over regulation or social engineering telling a building owner he cannot deny someone an apartment based on their gender, sexual preference, or color? Is social engineering telling an employer he cannot refuse to hire Blacks, Poles, Italians, Sox Fans, etc?

 

Is it social engineering to set a nationwide policy to immunize every person against polio? Is it over regulation to ban DDT from our environment? Both examples are programs the GOP fought against.

 

Was it social engineering to support laws that banned interracial marriage (GOP) or social engineering to strike down those laws (Dems)?

 

Nuke, do you believe, without regulations, that companies would do what is in the publics best interest?

In general social engineering is when the government changes the law to accomodate a special interest group. The greater the majority rejects that change the greater the injustice to the majority becomes.

 

Democracy is all about numbers. You have certain inalienable rights to due process to insure that your side can be heard either it be in a public forum or a court of law. You have certain inalienable rights to seek a living & pursue happiness in America. But those rights are no greater than the majority's right to do the same. Basically it's as simple as this: what's good for the majority is good for you. If you don't like it, get the F out. There's no end to the demand for entry/citizenship into America so there's no need for this country to cater to your personal philosophy of life any more. Whatever you want to do in the privacy of your own home is up to you, but you have no right to try & force acceptance of it on the majority.

 

Our founding fathers were nieve in believing that all judges would be compelled by their education & experience to be fair & impartial to all issues. They believed that judges would somehow stand above politics because of their chosen profession. That's why they defined appointments in terms of life terms. It's clear now that they were seriously wrong. It's time we review the appointments so that when the elected official gets voted out the judge goes with him. You either believe in democracy or you don't. If you don't like it & need an elitist form of govt Europe is waiting to hear from you.

[JUGGERNAUT]

BOTCH BOY & Ozzie's misuse of the pen really has me pissed .. so venting my anger.

 

In the year 2004 the President can't take a crap w/out a poll or survey being done on what color it was! That's modern day America. The majority speaks thru polls & surveys & research data anonymously. In this day & age everyone is represented & everyone is heard. Today polls are conducted on sizes of 1000-2000. In the near future they'll probably double the size in an effort to reduce the error to lower than a few points.

 

That's the future of America & with that kind of majority opinion expressed daily there's no room for activist judges ram-roding their ideals down America's throats.

 

Is it any wonder that Asian-Americans are beginning to dominate Americas colleges?

Did you not see the Berkeley report? While the mainstream media was fixated on blacks dropping from 500+ to 200+ in 7 yrs they seemed to neglect that Asian Americans had grown from 2700 to 3600. They are now the majority in the freshman class at Berk. Whites grew from 2700 to 2900. I did a little searching & I found similar trends at Geo Tech, Golgate, UofI, & several others. In fact at every highly competitive school I looked at asians were within 5-10% of the majority after experiencing double digit growth over the last 10 yrs. Pretty remarkable for a demographic that is somewhere betw 10-18%. That means is twice as likely for an asian kid to make it into a highly competitive school than any other ethnic group.

 

Now why is that? Could it be that asian Americans homeschool/private school

more than any other group? Could it be that asian Americans are more likely to use tutors than any other group? Could it be that they are the most stringent traditionally in raising their children? Could it be that they are least affected by outside media sources because of a traditional moral upbringing at home? Could it be that they realize the importance of English & instead of b****ing about they just go to work to master it? Certainly makes you wonder. Follow this trend 10-20 yrs down the road & it means the majority of highly educated persons in this country will fit this demo. I for one am ready to salute these future leaders of America.

[mmmmmbeeer]

Give me an example of an overregulation? Is social engineering the government telling people who can marry and who cannot? Is it over regulation or social engineering telling a building owner he cannot deny someone an apartment based on their gender, sexual preference, or color? Is social engineering telling an employer he cannot refuse to hire Blacks, Poles, Italians, Sox Fans, etc?

 

Is it social engineering to set a nationwide policy to immunize every person against polio? Is it over regulation to ban DDT from our environment? Both examples are programs the GOP fought against.

 

Was it social engineering to support laws that banned interracial marriage (GOP) or social engineering to strike down those laws (Dems)?

 

Nuke, do you believe, without regulations, that companies would do what is in the publics best interest?

The federal government has no business telling anyone who they can and cannot marry.

 

The federal government has no business telling a private property owner who he can lease his property to.

 

The federal government has no business telling a private company who they can and cannot hire.

 

Federal tax money should not be spent on immunizations. This should be handled by state governments.

 

DDT should indeed be banned by our federal government because it poses a direct and serious threat to the well-being of US citizens.

 

The federal government should not send Oregonian tax money to Iowa to help with flooding. This is an unconstitutional use of federal tax money.

 

Free trade is free trade. Perhaps if it weren't for all the f***ing unions in this nation we wouldn't have so many problems with jobs moving overseas. Protectionist actions, like those taken by GWB on behalf of the steel unions, lead to higher prices for all Americans and don't do s*** to save jobs.

 

The Interstate Highway System should be funded by the federal government being it aids interstate commerce. Roads belonging to just one state should be paid for out of that one state's revenues. Again, Oregonians shouldn't have to pay for a new Main Street in Bumf***, Vermont.

 

The federal government should never overrule a local or state government law unless the law is causing personal harm to the rest of the union. If Bumf***, Arkansas wants to outlaw interacial marriages, then that is their right to do so. If you don't like it Tex, guess what, you've the freedom to move your ass to a town that does allow it. Perhaps the state could get involved, but is WELL outside the powers enumerated to Washinton in the CONSTITUTION. Same with the drug war. Californians have repeatedly passed medical marijuana laws but the feds have repeatedly stormed medicinal marijuana growers. It's bulls*** and unconstitutional.

 

Nuke hit it on the head earlier, true conservativism yearns for a return to our constitutional republic and aren't whipping boys to the Religious Right. Washington is entirely too bloated, too intrusive, and too busy trying to turn this nation into a true democracy. The majority of republicans are just as f***ing bad as the f***ing piece of s*** democrats. Atleast the republicans can claim some sense of fiscal conservativism, but the gap is becoming more narrow each election. We're heading down a road of popular opinions dictating law, restricting freedoms. You know what the absolute greatest gauge of freedom is??? When 98% of the country is pissed off about what the other 2% are doing, freedom is accomplished.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

That's the future of America & with that kind of majority opinion expressed daily there's no room for activist judges ram-roding their ideals down America's throats.

 

Is it any wonder that Asian-Americans are beginning to dominate Americas colleges?

Did you not see the Berkeley report?  While the mainstream media was fixated on blacks dropping from 500+ to 200+ in 7 yrs they seemed to neglect that Asian Americans had grown from 2700 to 3600.  They are now the majority in the freshman class at Berk.  Whites grew from 2700 to 2900.  I did a little searching & I found similar trends at Geo Tech, Golgate,  UofI, & several others.  In fact at every highly competitive school I looked at asians were within 5-10% of the majority after experiencing double digit growth over the last 10 yrs.  Pretty remarkable for a demographic that is somewhere betw 10-18%.  That means is twice as likely for an asian kid to make it into a highly competitive school than any other ethnic group.

 

Now why is that?

On your 1st point.....

 

 

 

On your second point..... Asians are hard-working, independent people. You never hear about them in poverty, you never hear them whining about this or that injustice. They go out there and make s*** happen day in and day out & that's why they are far and away the most prosperous minority group. Maybe Blacks and Hispanics can take a lesson from them.

[Texsox]

The federal government has no business telling anyone who they can and cannot marry.

 

The federal government has no business telling a private property owner who he can lease his property to.

 

The federal government has no business telling a private company who they can and cannot hire.

 

Federal tax money should not be spent on immunizations.  This should be handled by state governments. 

 

DDT should indeed be banned by our federal government because it poses a direct and serious threat to the well-being of US citizens.

 

The federal government should not send Oregonian tax money to Iowa to help with flooding.  This is an unconstitutional use of federal tax money. 

 

Free trade is free trade.  Perhaps if it weren't for all the f***ing unions in this nation we wouldn't have so many problems with jobs moving overseas.  Protectionist actions, like those taken by GWB on behalf of the steel unions, lead to higher prices for all Americans and don't do s*** to save jobs. 

 

The Interstate Highway System should be funded by the federal government being it aids interstate commerce.  Roads belonging to just one state should be paid for out of that one state's revenues.  Again, Oregonians shouldn't have to pay for a new Main Street in Bumf***, Vermont. 

 

The federal government should never overrule a local or state government law unless the law is causing personal harm to the rest of the union.  If Bumf***, Arkansas wants to outlaw interacial marriages, then that is their right to do so.  If you don't like it Tex, guess what, you've the freedom to move your ass to a town that does allow it.  Perhaps the state could get involved, but is WELL outside the powers enumerated to Washinton in the CONSTITUTION. Same with the drug war.  Californians have repeatedly passed medical marijuana laws but the feds have repeatedly stormed medicinal marijuana growers.  It's bulls*** and unconstitutional.

 

Nuke hit it on the head earlier, true conservativism yearns for a return to our constitutional republic and aren't whipping boys to the Religious Right.  Washington is entirely too bloated, too intrusive, and too busy trying to turn this nation into a true democracy.  The majority of republicans are just as f***ing bad as the f***ing piece of s*** democrats.  Atleast the republicans can claim some sense of fiscal conservativism, but the gap is becoming more narrow each election. We're heading down a road of popular opinions dictating law, restricting freedoms.  You know what the absolute greatest gauge of freedom is???  When 98% of the country is pissed off about what the other 2% are doing, freedom is accomplished.

Who they can and cannot marry? Does that also include ages? I assume you are supporting the DEM position that anyone can get married. Or are you supporting the REP that government can tell you who you cannot marry?

 

You wouldn't mind returning to the days of whites only signs on properties? You wouldn't mind seeing No n***** signs on help wanted posters? :headshake I cannot even fathom returning to those days. White's only schools? Tell me I'm misreading what you wrote and that property owners and employers cannot discriminate on sex, race, religion? What do you mean?

 

State vs. Federal taxes? Fine pay whomever. I just do not see a difference if I pay a local, county, state, or federal tax. It's all money out of my pocket. I guess the more local the better chance we have of some influence in how it is spent.

 

DDT is easy.

 

Oregon money in Iowa? It would be impossible, and damaging, for the federal government to balance income and exenses into each state. I'm imagining a Senatopr saying "Sorry we cannot open that military base unless we raise taxes in that state." Some states receive more government spending than they send in because of their strategic location. Naval bases on the coasts instead of Iowa would be one example.

 

Are the unions the problem because they fight for higher wages? Are you saying if we didn't have unions, wages would be on par with China and Mexico, and we would still have those jobs? I'm not a big union fan, but wonder exactly what their roll is in losing jobs to China. CW told a tale where a local union offered over $3,000,000 in concessions and the company still moved to Mexico for $3.5 milion in savings.

 

Roads? again we have the how to balance funding between the states. Are you stating that no state should receive more federal government dollars than they pay in? Wouldn't we have to relocate research facilities, military bases, nuclear waste facilities, prisons, and other sites to balance spending? Income tax isn't earmarked for roads, flood/disaster relief (which actually is a form of insurance).

 

We have a Federal Constitution and a Federal Bill of Rights. Local governments cannot make laws that go against those federal laws. If you don't like our Constitution you are free to campaign to have it changed. If you cannot get it changed than the choice is to live in the US or move.

 

As far as economics. One of the big reasons I've begun supporting some democratic candidates is economics. During the Reagan years, we spent, spent, spent, and we wound up with a $2.7 Trillion dollar deficit. Republicans keep claiming they can keep spending and cut taxes. Eventually we all have to pay the piper. We saw the economic collapse of the USSR. Let's not go down that path.

 

We are fighting a very expensive war. After this gets finsihed we will continue to be fighting a war against terrorists. As Nuke has done a great job of explaining, we will need to continue to build our arm services so we are not relying on reserve Troops as much. Is Bush talking about any tax increase to pay for it? Is he talking about cutting other progams to pay for it? I prefer a politician that has the guts to make us pay for what we get.

[Texsox]

That's the future of America & with that kind of majority opinion expressed daily there's no room for activist judges ram-roding their ideals down America's throats.

I guess you are believing this is the major flaw in our constitution and form of government. Judges are our defense against the legistlative branch inacting laws that are unconstitutional. If not the Juducial branch, then who? We all remember the beauty of our form of government is the checks and balances. The courts are our balance.

 

Just because a Judge rules a law as unconstitutional, doesn't mean the legislature cannot pass another law that would fit within our constitution. Judges cannot pass new laws.

[Texsox]

On your 1st point.....

 

 

 

On your second point.....  Asians are hard-working, independent people.  You never hear about them in poverty, you never hear them whining about this or that injustice.  They go out there and make s*** happen day in and day out & that's why they are far and away the most prosperous minority group.  Maybe Blacks and Hispanics can take a lesson from them.

It isn't only the Asians but most first and second generation Americans that do better than the curve.

 

Nuke also highlights one bit of self fullfilling prophecy here. Two peopel talked about the hard working Asians, good families, etc. Employers are more willing to hire Asians than blacks and hispanics. So more Asians get better jobs, Blacks and hispanics get discouraged. I don't know how to change that perception.

 

The hardest working immigrants I know are hispanic migrant workers. Entire families toil for 14 hour days in the fields picking crops for months on end. Poor living conditions and are subjected to all sorts of scams and abuse.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

It isn't only the Asians but most first and second generation Americans that do better than the curve.

 

Nuke also highlights one bit of self fullfilling prophecy here. Two peopel talked about the hard working Asians, good families, etc. Employers are more willing to hire Asians than blacks and hispanics. So more Asians get better jobs, Blacks and hispanics get discouraged. I don't know how to change that perception.

 

The hardest working immigrants I know are hispanic migrant workers. Entire families toil for 14 hour days in the fields picking crops for months on end. Poor living conditions and are subjected to all sorts of scams and abuse.

You know what the Chinese and Irish were doing a lot of in the last century? They were laying railroad track across the entire country for peanuts & subjected to absolutely despicable racial and ethnic hatreds & they turned out fine. I fail to see the difference.

[Texsox]

You know what the Chinese and Irish were doing a lot of in the last century?  They were laying railroad track across the entire country for peanuts & subjected to absolutely despicable racial and ethnic hatreds & they turned out fine.  I fail to see the difference.

I thought we were talking about recent immigrants. There has been an explosion of Asian immigration when the Japanese economy cooled down.

 

Some of the differences in the immigrants is largly economic. To immigrate from Japan, China, Korea, France, Spain, or Australia (and others) requires a large outlay of cash for travel, moving furniture, etc. A common laboror from these countries cannot afford the luxery.

 

To immigrate from Mexico, South America, or Canada one can drive, or even walk. We see more lower skilled immigrants from these countries and they possibly tarnish our view of the better educated, better skilled immigrants from Mexico, South America and Canada.

 

Nuke, do you believe if an Iraqi, a Mexican, and a Japenese person all applied for the same job, with the same qualifications, they would have an equal chance to be hired?

 

We hear about Hispanics coming in and taking our jobs, yet you just pointed out other immigrants are filing the higher paying jobs. Why no backlash? Why no editorials?

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Nuke, do you believe if an Iraqi, a Mexican, and a Japenese person all applied for the same job, with the same qualifications, they would have an equal chance to be hired?

 

We hear about Hispanics coming in and taking our jobs, yet you just pointed out other immigrants are filing the higher paying jobs. Why no backlash? Why no editorials?

What jobs are Hispanics taking? I dont see a crush of middle class white folks rushing to the fruit & cotton fields of America with a sack in their hand ready for picking time.

 

As for other immigrants taking high paying jobs I assume you're talking about the Tech field and we can lay the blame squarely at our own feet for that one. When the Dot Com economy was in high gear a few years ago there was a crushing shortage of high tech workers. Why? Because American schools are so worried about teaching ebonics & foisting multicultural & gender sensitivity garbage on the kids that nobody can do complicated math and science anymore. As a result, we have asians, who dont give 2 s***s about such nonsense holding a majority of slots in university science and engineering majors despite being a tiny minority of the population. Good for them.......bad for the rest of us. Like I always say.......It pays to be a winner.

[Texsox]

What jobs are Hispanics taking?  I dont see a crush of middle class white folks rushing to the fruit & cotton fields of America with a sack in their hand ready for picking time. 

 

As for other immigrants taking high paying jobs I assume you're talking about the Tech field and we can lay the blame squarely at our own feet for that one.  When the Dot Com economy was in high gear a few years ago there was a crushing shortage of high tech workers.  Why?  Because American schools are so worried about teaching ebonics & foisting multicultural & gender sensitivity garbage on the kids that nobody can do complicated math and science anymore.  As a result, we have asians, who dont give 2 s***s about such nonsense holding a majority of slots in university science and engineering majors despite being a tiny minority of the population.  Good for them.......bad for the rest of us.  Like I always say.......It pays to be a winner.

I don't see it as a us vs. them argument. :headshake When do you consider these Asian immigrants to be "us"?

 

I agree the schools are partly to blame. My kids have not been taught ebonics or any of the items you mentioned, perhaps it is just with military kids. What school did you go to or your kids went to that taught ebonics and multiculturism? Was it all day, one period, all four years? I have my son's HS list of courses and neither of those subjects are listed.

 

What has happened is the State Governments and school boards have increased the number or required math, science, and english classes to the point where kids have very few electives. Everytime some standardized test comes out, we add more regulations and required courses.

 

Kids who are not, and maybe should not be, on an academic track, who would be better on a vocational track, are cut off from those opportinities. We have a critical shortage of Tool and Die workers, of Industrial Maintanance workers, etc. Maybe teaching Triginometry and Physics to kids who want to be Auto Mechanics, HVAC mechanics, Tool and Die workers is a good idea, I just think it should be an elective, not required.

 

When I was in High School, by my Junior year, I had three periods of electives, my son will have 1.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

I don't see it as a us vs. them argument.  :headshake When do you consider these Asian immigrants to be "us"?

 

I agree the schools are partly to blame. My kids have not been taught ebonics or any of the items you mentioned, perhaps it is just with military kids. What school did you go to or your kids went to that taught ebonics and multiculturism? Was it all day, one period, all four years? I have my son's HS list of courses and neither of those subjects are listed.

 

What has happened is the State Governments and school boards have increased the number or required math, science, and english classes to the point where kids have very few electives. Everytime some standardized test comes out, we add more regulations and required courses.

 

Kids who are not, and maybe should not be, on an academic track, who would be better on a vocational track, are cut off from those opportinities. We have a critical shortage of Tool and Die workers, of Industrial Maintanance workers, etc. Maybe teaching Triginometry and Physics to kids who want to be Auto Mechanics, HVAC mechanics, Tool and Die workers is a good idea, I just think it should be an elective, not required.

 

When I was in High School, by my Junior year, I had three periods of electives, my son will have 1.

You make it sound like I think Asians succeeding where the rest of America is failing is a bad thing. That's not the case at all. More power to them.

 

I dont know why you had to drag the military into this but I have no idea what the curriculum is like in DOD schools because I dont have kids who go there.....I dont even have kids. I do know what I read in the news & that's where the ebonics comes in. LA county, among other places, was widely criticized for using it in the school system there. As for the other stuff you hear all the time in the news about school systems falling all over themselves to introduce multicultural & gender crap into the curriculum. It may not be as overt as setting up a seperate class for it but it certainly pervasive enough & even when I was in HS 10 years ago I dealt with it every day ( I was in the Chicago Public School system from K-12 btw. ).

 

How does teaching math and science to HS kids "cut them off" from a career as a tradesman? Far as I know there are any number of post HS vocational schools out there who can teach the various trades to them. Getting money for post HS education is a simple matter as there are hundreds of millions of dollars out there for the taking for those who cant afford it.

[Texsox]

You make it sound like I think Asians succeeding where the rest of America is failing is a bad thing.  That's not the case at all.  More power to them.

 

I dont know why you had to drag the military into this but I have no idea what the curriculum is like in DOD schools because I dont have kids who go there.....I dont even have kids.  I do know what I read in the news & that's where the ebonics comes in.  LA county, among other places, was widely criticized for using it in the school system there.  As for the other  stuff you hear all the time in the news about school systems falling all over themselves to introduce multicultural & gender crap into the curriculum.  It may not be as overt as setting up a seperate class for it but it certainly pervasive enough & even when I was in HS 10 years ago I dealt with it every day  ( I was in the Chicago Public School system from K-12 btw. ).

 

How does teaching math and science to HS kids "cut them off" from a career as a tradesman?  Far as I know there are any number of post HS vocational schools out there who can teach the various trades to them.  Getting money for post HS education is a simple matter as there are hundreds of millions of dollars out there for the taking for those who cant afford it.

I think anyone succeeding in America is good for us. I think we need to help everyone, regardless of origin, succeed. It makes us stronger.

 

If a couple school districts are teaching ebonics, I do not think it has that great an effect on the nation.

 

The problem with requiring advanced academic skills happens in a couple areas.

 

One is that many kids are not exposed to various "shop" classes to see if they are interested. I took drafting, wood working, metal working, etc. as fun type stuff and to pick up some life skills. A buddy of mine became an architect after being exposed to drafting. I was talking to a ROTC instructor and he mentioned how his numbers are down because he cannot use the "try it, you may like it" approach.

 

Another is some kids are discouraged when then cannot pass these required courses and drop out of school.

 

Three it fails to allow for local decisions in the schools. States pass these requirements, but do not fund them, leaving localities to raise taxes or cut spending on sports, arts, extra curricular activities, etc.

 

Looking at unusual things that are taught in school, I am interested in your opinion. In the middle schools here and elsewhere, they are competing in a classroom excercise called "The Stock Market Game" classes form teams and they are given $X to invest in the stock market. Their results are tracked over a 60 or 90 day period and judged against other teams from accross the nation. My son's team happened to win for his school a couple year's ago when he rejected my advice and invested almost 75% of their funds in Timberland after they noticed almost all their fellow Boy Scouts were buying Timberland boots.

 

Is this something that should be taught in the schools? I believe it is in their Math or Advisory classes. And probably takes up 20 hours of instructional time.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

Looking at unusual things that are taught in school, I am interested in your opinion. In the middle schools here and elsewhere, they are competing in a classroom excercise called "The Stock Market Game" classes form teams and they are given $X to invest in the stock market. Their results are tracked over a 60 or 90 day period and judged against other teams from accross the nation. My son's team happened to win for his school a couple year's ago when he rejected my advice and invested almost 75% of their funds in Timberland after they noticed almost all their fellow Boy Scouts were buying Timberland boots.

 

Is this something that should be taught in the schools? I believe it is in their Math or Advisory classes. And probably takes up 20 hours of instructional time.

I did that in my HS econ class. I had a blast doing it & it makes students aware about the value of investing at a young age & is also the reason I have a lot more money put away than my peers.

 

Another cool thing I did in that class was that our teacher had us all break off into groups & start our own small business. For 3 months we spent part of our class time ( and quite a bit of our off time ) & came up with a product and marketed it to the rest of the student body & at the end we tallied up the results & shared our lessons learned.

 

Stuff like that is of great value cause it teaches kids about practical stuff that they can use later on in life. BTW. I had a blast in drafting class myself.

 

I never said we should cut out elective/vocational classes in order to load up on math and science but we shouldn't get too far away from the basics either.

[Texsox]

I did that in my HS econ class.  I had a blast doing it & it makes students aware about the value of investing at a young age & is also the reason I have a lot more money put away than my peers.

 

Another cool thing I did in that class was that our teacher had us all break off into groups & start our own small business.  For 3 months we spent part of our class time ( and quite a bit of our off time ) & came up with a product and marketed it to the rest of the student body & at the end we tallied up the results & shared our lessons learned.

 

Stuff like that is of great value cause it teaches kids about practical stuff that they can use later on in life.  BTW.  I had a blast in drafting class myself.

 

I never said we should cut out elective/vocational classes in order to load up on math and science but we shouldn't get too far away from the basics either.

But we have cut vocational and other electives to "get back to the three Rs"

 

We've also added stuff like advacned computer classes, kids in the McAllen School District can graduate from HS with certification in over 25 different fields ranging from Novell and Microsoft to Cosmotology. Those programs are in jeopardy each time we add another credit of math or science to the curriculm.

 

Our schools, for the majority or the country, are the best in the world.

 

You mentioned home school earlier and I wish every parent would understand, like home school parents do, that they alone are ultimately responsible for their child's education. If they contract out that responsibility to a school, public or private, they still have a responsibility to follow up and make certain what is being taught. They also need to complete the eduction process at home by teaching the rest of the stuff. Too many parents do not do that, instead they ask our school systems to teach stuff that should be taught at home. Like morals, ethics, team building, stock markets, starting a small business. I understand since the parents do not, that someone has too, but that doesn't make it right.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I must respond to this & bookmark this thread in the culture war thread because beer's comments strike the new front lines on this war. There are two facets to this war: economic & social. Inevitably in all capitalistic societies the two clash. America is no different.

 

Basically he's an advocate for repealing civil rights legislation that favors a special interest group. That's what all of his points sum to. Likewise is an ardent free trade advocate that does not believe collective bargaining or human rights plays a role in scaling economies.

 

By and large he represents a traditional conservative. If it ain't broke don't fix it. It ain't broke if the majority thinks it's working. I think beer represents a sig that is fastly fading. He's definitely a representative of the far right with views like that.

 

On the issue of free trade it has inevitably reached the point where America first clashes with the conservative viewpoint. What Bush did for the steel industry helped to bolster the US economy during tough times. It only became bad policy when foreigners threatened to wage a trade war. Bush being an advocate of global trade inevitably backs down.

 

But the truth is there is no economic data that suggests America needs Europe, China, or even Japan to support it's economy. In fact all facets of economic data suggests that America can effectively raised the standard of living in the W Hemisphere if it simply concentrated on trade in that part of the world. Why? Because there is both democracy, population, & lower cost labor supply to both grow human rights & economies. As big as China's GDP is, how much of it translates into a common man's wealth? The real wealth in China lies in politicians from the communist party & American, European, & Japanese capitalists that take advantage of the cheap/slave labor.

 

In reality it is no different than the practice of corp yesteryear using scabs to break union strikes. I think the bulk of Americans from the conservative & liberal camps are becoming disenchanting with global free trade. The latest polling data outside of Americans in the W Hem indicates less than 20% are happy with democracy. If we continue to ignore our brethren in this part of the world we may be facing a much greater national security threat if they should become so disenchanted with democracy as to give it up.

 

And there lies the biggest fault in the far right free trade ideal. Economics is as important an area of national security as defense is. Why would any intelligent nation leave economics to be driven solely by the most greediest capitalists the world has ever seen?

 

The best policy is to pressure China on human rights by providing incentives to American corps to shift manufacturing from China to Canada, Mexico, & S America.

The reality of what America is, is that it is the largest market for goods & services on this planet. It's market is better than 3 times that of any other nations. In fact all the G6 combined barely match America's. That means America controls the bulk of demand for goods & services. That's tremendous power in a capitalist world.

 

Markets are not created overnight. To build demand you must have a spread of wealth to build consumers. Cheap/slave labor is going to make that process slow & arduous. So China might be the biggest market in the future in terms of pop but it's a long way to being the biggest in demand.

 

The American govt owes it to the American people & those of the W Hem to use her trump card to the best of her ability. That means leveraging demand to effect supply of goods & services. This does not go against basic economic theory as the far right contend. It actually supports it. As does it support real free trade. If you are a corporation looking to buy goods the larger your order the greater your leverage towards price. The American people have the same right to apply that kind of leverage to the greed driven capitalists of the world. Meet our price & our conditions or we will go elsewhere for a new supplier. That's the way free trade is supposed to work.

 

What has happened in America is the suppliers are no long American in nature. They are globalists & they use the American politicians like puppets to weaken America's collective power.

[Texsox]

I must respond to this & bookmark this thread in the culture war thread because beer's comments strike the new front lines on this war.  There are two facets to this war: economic & social.  Inevitably in all capitalistic societies the two clash.  America is no different.

 

Basically he's an advocate for repealing civil rights legislation that favors a special interest group.  That's what all of his points sum to.  Likewise is an ardent free trade advocate that does not believe collective bargaining or human rights plays a role in scaling economies.

 

By and large he represents a traditional conservative.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.  It ain't broke if the majority thinks it's working.  I think beer represents a sig that is fastly fading.  He's definitely a representative of the far right with views like that.

 

On the issue of free trade it has inevitably reached the point where America first clashes with the conservative viewpoint.  What Bush did for the steel industry helped to bolster the US economy during tough times.  It only became bad policy when foreigners threatened to wage a trade war. Bush being an advocate of global trade inevitably backs down.

 

But the truth is there is no economic data that suggests America needs Europe, China, or even Japan to support it's economy.  In fact all facets of economic data suggests that America can effectively raised the standard of living in the W Hemisphere if it simply concentrated on trade in that part of the world.  Why?  Because there is both democracy, population, & lower cost labor supply to both grow human rights & economies. As big as China's GDP is, how much of it translates into a common man's wealth?  The real wealth in China lies in politicians from the communist party & American, European, & Japanese capitalists that take advantage of the cheap/slave labor. 

 

In reality it is no different than the practice of corp yesteryear using scabs to break union strikes.  I think the bulk of Americans from the conservative & liberal camps are becoming disenchanting with global free trade.  The latest polling data outside of Americans in the W Hem indicates less than 20% are happy with democracy.  If we continue to ignore our brethren in this part of the world we may be facing a much greater national security threat if they should become so disenchanted with democracy as to give it up.

 

And there lies the biggest fault in the far right free trade ideal.  Economics is as important an area of national security as defense is. Why would any intelligent nation leave economics to be driven solely by the most greediest capitalists the world has ever seen?

 

The best policy is to pressure China on human rights by providing incentives to American corps to shift manufacturing from China to Canada, Mexico, & S America.

The reality of what America is, is that it is the largest market for goods & services on this planet.  It's market is better than 3 times that of any other nations.  In fact all the G6 combined barely match America's. That means America controls the bulk of demand for goods & services. That's tremendous power in a capitalist world.

 

Markets are not created overnight.  To build demand you must have a spread of wealth to build consumers.  Cheap/slave labor is going to make that process slow & arduous.  So China might be the biggest market in the future in terms of pop but it's a long way to being the biggest in demand.

 

The American govt owes it to the American people & those of the W Hem to use her trump card to the best of her ability. That means leveraging demand to effect supply of goods & services. This does not go against basic economic theory as the far right contend.  It actually supports it.  As does it support real free trade.  If you are a corporation looking to buy goods the larger your order the greater your leverage towards price. The American people have the same right to apply that kind of leverage to the greed driven capitalists of the world.  Meet our price & our conditions or we will go elsewhere for a new supplier.  That's the way free trade is supposed to work.

 

What has happened in America is the suppliers are no long American in nature.  They are globalists & they use the American politicians like puppets to weaken America's collective power.

There are a couple trends that are reversing what you pointed out. With NAFTA we are seeing more and more Pacific rim and European companies locating plants in North America. Basically manufacturing is getting closer to their customers. Eventually we will see American firms hiring people in (for example) Tiawan to service Tiawan customers and Tiawanese companies employing Americans to service their customers. Right now we are in the early stages of the movement and US companies are ahead of the curve.

 

Reynosa, Tamaulipas Mexico is about 10 miles form where I sit. The largest Japanese Chamber of Commerce outside China is there and it is growing every day.

 

Your comments on the China market are dead on. I have met with several businessmen who have been part of Rep. Hassert's trips to China. They all mention that the Chinese are not ready to buy American technology and higher ticker items. They are ready to buy jeans, coke, and Big Macs.

 

Is the conservative aproach to take their tax savings and invest in China? Thus helping to spark the US economy? For the most part the US Government has a much better record of buying American.