Steff Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 I do not remember which paper it was & I never said it was the Cubune. Wait a second.. hold the phone...?? Now you say you never said it was in the Tribune...??? You have got to be kidding me. Good grief... is your nose hitting your monitor yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RibbieRubarb Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 QUOTE (JUGGERNAUT @ Jun 15 2004, 11:36 AM) He said it! It was probably a quote in the Cubune. I'm looking for a link reference now. QUOTE (JUGGERNAUT @ Jun 16 2004, 02:40 PM) I do not remember which paper it was & I never said it was the Cubune. This is getting fun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 I've have the reference date now. It's around April 17th when the 58/4 offer was reported & Ordonez turned it down. At least I'm finding 58/4 references. I'm willing to concede that even though I have proven that it is more probable that he did say "no" or "never" in response to the possibilty of the SOX signing him as a FA at the time this offer was made I have not proven it to be an indisputable fact & therefore designate it at best as a probable rumor. That being said the best article to date on the subject is this one: http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic...9&hl=58+million Ordonez, who is seeking a five-year deal at about $75 million, wants the White Sox to add a year to their four-year offer and to drop their talk of deferrals, vesting options and other gimmicks. But the reality is the Sox are only being prudent, trying to protect themselves. If Ordonez wants to stay where he's comfortable, they are giving him a chance. If he'll stay only at maximum value—and how does he find out what that is without testing the free-agent market?—then general manager Ken Williams must consider his options. Where's the 58/4 reference...? Am I the only one that sees 75/5 and a mention of 4 years with no $ amount..??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 One thing I will say in Maggs defense of which I have no information whatsoever on: If he is not seeking a no-trade clause in his contract & the SOX were not hampered in the least when it comes to trading him then provided reasonable insurance can be purchased against the contract I believe the SOX can afford to pay him 75/5. As long as he does not insist on things that would hamper the SOX ability to move the contract I don't believe a contract of that size would weaken the team overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 31 pages, and still nothing new??? why bother? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Interesting link on the whole "is Maggs really worth it" question? http://beerandwhiskey.blogspot.com/2004_04...ey_archive.html So, Magglio is asking for $14 million. For $4 million you could probably get a very decent player ... someone about the same age who can produce, let's say, 90% of the numbers Mags is capable of producing for 75% less money someone like ... oh, perhaps Randy Winn. (AVG/OBP/SLG: .283/.343.406). In 500 at bats, Winn's numbers translate to 142 hits (via AVG) and 203 bases (via SLG). Magglio, in those same 500 at bats would have 156 hits (with his career .308 AVG) and 264 bases (with his career .528 slugging). Simply put, Mags will produce approximately fourteen extra hits and sixty-one extra bases over the course of a typical season. Are those fourteen extra hits worth the $10 million difference between Winn and Ordonez? Well, again, the answer depends on whether or not the White Sox can afford the extra $10 million for those hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RibbieRubarb Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Interesting link on the whole "is Maggs really worth it" question? http://beerandwhiskey.blogspot.com/2004_04...ey_archive.html So, Magglio is asking for $14 million. For $4 million you could probably get a very decent player ... someone about the same age who can produce, let's say, 90% of the numbers Mags is capable of producing for 75% less money someone like ... oh, perhaps Randy Winn. (AVG/OBP/SLG: .283/.343.406). In 500 at bats, Winn's numbers translate to 142 hits (via AVG) and 203 bases (via SLG). Magglio, in those same 500 at bats would have 156 hits (with his career .308 AVG) and 264 bases (with his career .528 slugging). Simply put, Mags will produce approximately fourteen extra hits and sixty-one extra bases over the course of a typical season. Are those fourteen extra hits worth the $10 million difference between Winn and Ordonez? Well, again, the answer depends on whether or not the White Sox can afford the extra $10 million for those hits. Thats nice and all but... QUOTE (JUGGERNAUT @ Jun 15 2004, 10:40 AM) Which is why he's an arse-hole for saying that once he goes to FA he will never be back with the SOX. Maggs! Where did you hear this again?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valponick Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 I can't believe you just compared Magglio Ordonez with Randy Winn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Thats nice and all but... Where did you hear this again?? Stop, stop.... please stop... My belly hurts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RibbieRubarb Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 I can't believe you just compared Magglio Ordonez with Randy Winn. Believe it! Maggs said that Randy Winn is better player than him or anyone else on the White Sox... What a jerk :fyou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Grow the F up. I expect the less intelligent like yourself to not understand the point he's making. What he's saying is that the level of production between a 4 million player & a 15 million player is not 400%. In otherwords, the production doesn't justify the cost. If you had a brain you might be able to figure that out. I didn't say I agree with me. I simply quoted his reference. The whole like makes reference to the 14 million / 4 yr offer. Personally I feel that when you have to make this kind of decision it's best to look at inn 1-4 & close & late because those are the times that will usally have the greatest impact on winning. I've already looked at that & on avg Maggs is the 3rd best on the SOX over the past 4 yrs. This year he's about 5th. Now since you have no capacity for real debate & don't understand the word "probably" there is no reason for me to continue with this. I'm outta here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 The whole like makes reference to the 14 million / 4 yr offer. Now since you have no capacity for real debate & don't understand the word "probably" there is no reason for me to continue with this. I'm outta here. Now it's 14 million for 4 years..? Hey.. no problem with you bailing on this. I would to if I were busted as bad as you have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Without the QUOTE Your agrument doesn't FLOAT Give it up Juggs. It that isn't already in the June Quotes of the month, it will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Grow the F up. The newspapers don't allow Google to cache crap that old any more. I never said it WAS the Cubune I simply said it "PROBABLY" was the Cubune. Based on the Cubune circulation to other papers that's called an "EDUCATED" guess. The best source for the 58/4 references appear here at SOXTALK.com. http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic...5&hl=58+million http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic...9&hl=58+million http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic...9&hl=58+million For those who are weak at math: 14*4=56 so a 58/4 amounts to the SOX giving him 14.5 over 4 yrs. Maggs comments when the story broke around April 14-18th were not favorable to the SOX. It's not important enough to me to go look through the achives at the public library. I stopped being a Maggs fan when his salary jumped from 9 million to 14 million. Maybe you don't look at it the way I do, but the extra 5 million could have been used to sign Gordon, a solid 5th starter, or maybe with JR willing sign Hawkins to a 4 yr deal. Maggs is simply not worth 20-25% of the SOX payroll & wishing, hoping, or fantasizing that the SOX revenue will grow & shrink those numbers is not rational. So if that's what it means to retain his services then sayonara & good riddance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Tex, I'm interested to know your background because you seem to view a contract in a medieval sense. It's nothing more than the guidelines for parties to do business together. You are bound to a contract by law. Nothing more. If the party seeks to pursue legal means to force you to honor the contract than they have that right. In most cases when the terms of a contract spoil the good-faith spirit of the contract the two parties cease doing business together. It is only when there are large sums of money involved such as royalties & profit-sharing that they go to court. Juggs, I take pride that when I agree to do something, I do it. People can count on me, they can trust me. You've used leverage to get out of a contract. I've used my integrity to live up to my agreements. Maybe personal integrity is medieval. Call me old fashion, but I believe a man's word is his bond. Even more old faashioned is I even live up to vebal agreements, and wouldn't think of anything less. I know there are some low life snakes out there that will look me in the eye and lie. I know that there are some people whose signature isn't worth a hill of beans. I chose not to be that kind of person. I believe that there is honor in my word. This may have digressed into the funniest thread ever. From just a couple pages I missed Ribbie has me laughing my ass off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Grow the F up. I expect the less intelligent like myself to not understand the point he's making. What he's saying is that the level of production between a 4 million player & a 15 million player is not 400%. In otherwords, the production doesn't justify the cost. If you had a brain you might be able to figure that out. I didn't say I agree with me. I simply quoted his reference. The whole like makes reference to the 14 million / 4 yr offer. Personally I feel that when you have to make this kind of decision it's best to look at inn 1-4 & close & late because those are the times that will usally have the greatest impact on winning. I've already looked at that & on avg Maggs is the 3rd best on the SOX over the past 4 yrs. This year he's about 5th. Now since you have no capacity for real debate & don't understand the word "probably" there is no reason for me to continue with this. I'm outta here. What's the level of performance difference between 1st and 2nd place? What was the difference between say the Yankees and Marlins last season? 400% By the way, whose the guy you are referencing? I see it is some blog. I'll bet he's using you as his reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Juggs, I take pride that when I agree to do something, I do it. People can count on me, they can trust me. You've used leverage to get out of a contract. I've used my integrity to live up to my agreements. Maybe personal integrity is medieval. Call me old fashion, but I believe a man's word is his bond. Even more old faashioned is I even live up to vebal agreements, and wouldn't think of anything less. I know there are some low life snakes out there that will look me in the eye and lie. I know that there are some people whose signature isn't worth a hill of beans. I chose not to be that kind of person. I believe that there is honor in my word. This may have digressed into the funniest thread ever. From just a couple pages I missed Ribbie has me laughing my ass off. Your implication that somehow someone who seeks to use leverage to get out of a bad contract is dishonorable is pure bulls***. It's no less honorable to stay in such a contract then it is for the other party to hold you to it. Honor is tied to a good-faith agreement. Perhaps you don't know what that is. I've never had to terminate a contract through court. I was able to make my case based on the terms of the contract & the law. The party just agreed to the termination & I was able to seek a better contract. There is nothing dishonorable about that. Around the same time the SOX made Maggs the offer, Thomas mentioned he would like a new deal for 4 yrs. Having been ranked in the top 4 in RPG in 2003 he not only had the right to do so but he was justified in that right. Whether JR agrees to do that or not will be up to him & Thomas. It's pretty clear Williams didn't have much impact on the last contract & he probably wouldn't have any impact on the next. That's something Kenny respects between the relationship Reinsdorf & Thomas have forged over the years. But to suggest Thomas is dishonorable to mention he would like to extend his current contract with the SOX another year is dumb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 This may be an early nominee for thread of the year. It has everything, debate, humor, bulls***, graphics, a star player and a worthless bum, both named Maggs. This may be the passionless, mf thread of 2004. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 This may be an early nominee for thread of the year. It has everything, debate, humor, bulls***, graphics, a star player and a worthless bum, both named Maggs. This may be the passionless, mf thread of 2004. I'd say the winner of the "most BS posted in one thread" award is in the bag... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 I give you Jugg, Tex,Steff, SouthSide, and Ribbie all the award for "most time wasted on nothing" You guys can share it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 I've got a question for all you Maggs butt-kissers: Would the SOX have won more games in the past 2 yrs if they would have said Sayonara to him then? Here's his contract history: In 2001, SOX made a 26/4 extension offer which he turned down. He eventually signed a 29.5/3 deal or roughly 10 million. What level of talent could the SOX have bought that 10 million that would have helped the team perform better than it did with Maggs? If you need help in answering that feel free to ask for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 my guy says maggs is here next year...and i'm hungry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 I've got a question for all you Maggs butt-kissers: Would the SOX have won more games in the past 2 yrs if they would have said Sayonara to him then? Here's his contract history: In 2001, SOX made a 26/4 extension offer which he turned down. He eventually signed a 29.5/3 deal or roughly 10 million. What level of talent could the SOX have bought that 10 million that would have helped the team perform better than it did with Maggs? If you need help in answering that feel free to ask for it Of course you can look backwards, find a couple players, and make a case. Do you really think anyone here is that stupid? Do you think the Sox are that stupid that they would have paid Maggs more money instead of someone else? Stars offer some reasonable expectation of consistent performance? It's like comparing Uribe to every other middle infielder and telling teams they were idots to sign Jeter, Nomar, etc. to their contracts when they could have had Uribe as a FA. You could make a case like that against any player in baseball. Keep trying sparky. But according to you, the Sox could sign Maggs for anything and just ask to be let out of the contract later if another player, like Uribe starts playing well. Are you getting enough oxygen? Why pay Buerhle when a Dontrell makes less? Why pay Frank? Kong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Of course you can look backwards, find a couple players, and make a case. Do you really think anyone here is that stupid? Do you think the Sox are that stupid that they would have paid Maggs more money instead of someone else? Stars offer some reasonable expectation of consistent performance? It's like comparing Uribe to every other middle infielder and telling teams they were idots to sign Jeter, Nomar, etc. to their contracts when they could have had Uribe as a FA. You could make a case like that against any player in baseball. Keep trying sparky. But according to you, the Sox could sign Maggs for anything and just ask to be let out of the contract later if another player, like Uribe starts playing well. Are you getting enough oxygen? Do you often speak for other people or is this your God given right? Do you know how stupid it makes you sound? Who said I would use hindsight stats in that debate? I can make that debate based on the talent level in 2001 when the extension was signed. There's no hindsight in that. I thought it was a stupid contract then as I do now. I think Konerko's was just as stupid. There was no basis for thinking these players were going to perform better than they had to that point. So it's stupid to pay them on that assumption. Now Lee's 15/2 is a different matter. That's a reasonable contract that asks for a little bit more performance to make it a good price. Since that's being asked of a younger player it's a resonable risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Do you often speak for other people or is this your God given right? Do you know how stupid it makes you sound? Sorry, you've been soeaking for Maggs, I must have gotten carried away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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