CWSGuy406 Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 Why are you accepting that the owners can only spend $60,000,000? and not $62,000,000? or $65,000,000? You are overly complicating this. Is Maggs better or worse than his replacement? You are looking to drop our #3 hitter, biggest offensive threat, and legitamate All-Star to fill a hole at the #5 starter. We do not need 2 arms in the pen, we are already one of the top 5 pens in the A.L., we need one closer, if Zero or Marte isn't the answer. And you still have a couple weeks before your 16th birthday. Excited about getting your driver's license? The first big road trip I took after getting my license was to Cominsky. I had my license for like 1 week and was in the middle of game day traffic. I cannot believe my car survived How many businesses to you think invest money to fund growth? Do you think every business waits to accumulate capitol before growing? Do you think I LIKE that our budget is at that? No - sure, if I had it my way the Sox would spend freely, Maggs would be with us next year. But that isn't the way it is. That said - things CAN change. Getting to the ALCS would be a start, generating playoff revenue, and then maybe we can resign Maggs. But that's not the way things are now. The way things are NOW, we will be lucky to have our payroll reach 70 million (But like I said, it could happen given a playoff appearance.) However - don't mistake that with my wanting of a World Series Title. I'm just saying that if we made the ALCS this year, we will probably see a payroll increase. If that doesn't happen, then I'll give JR a big f*** you. I don't think JR is the greatest owner, but he isn't the worst either. Sure, I'd love to have a Moreno or a Steinbrennar running the team, but that simply isn't the case. At least he's better than Wirtz... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 Why are you accepting that the owners can only spend $60,000,000? and not $62,000,000? or $65,000,000? You are overly complicating this. Is Maggs better or worse than his replacement? You are looking to drop our #3 hitter, biggest offensive threat, and legitamate All-Star to fill a hole at the #5 starter. We do not need 2 arms in the pen, we are already one of the top 5 pens in the A.L., we need one closer, if Zero or Marte isn't the answer. And you still have a couple weeks before your 16th birthday. Excited about getting your driver's license? The first big road trip I took after getting my license was to Cominsky. I had my license for like 1 week and was in the middle of game day traffic. I cannot believe my car survived How many businesses to you think invest money to fund growth? Do you think every business waits to accumulate capitol before growing? You've got to be kidding me. First off garcia isn't a number 5 starter, he's at worst a great number 3 starter depending on who you ask. You add a very good starter and plug two more wholes and you'd still rather have one player. Nobody likes how ownership is here but deal with it because that's how its going to be. Reinsdorf isn't steinbrenner if he was then you sign maggs for 14 mill but with the budget on this franchise you can't have one player take up that much of your salary, especially a position player. There is a good offensive core in place for next year, right now I can't exactly say the same about the pitching staff. The sox have buehrle and garland signed for next year. I believe shoney has an option and loaiza is a fa. Use the 14 million to sign pitching. The sox farm system is stacked with outfielders, losing a 14 million dollar outfielder and putting a kid in there who will already be surrounded by a good core, you could put reed or jb down in the lineup and see how they produce, while adding much more pitching depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
da_bears86 Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 You add a very good starter and plug two more wholes and you'd still rather have one player. ok this is just annoying the crap outta me. in this instance you dont have to spell it "whole" "hole" will do just fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 "Where is the love?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 ok this is just annoying the crap outta me. in this instance you dont have to spell it "whole" "hole" will do just fine Yeah, sorry about that. Look what happens when school is out. :banghead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
da_bears86 Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 hey im outta school too. and normally that type of thing wouldnt bother me it just is for some reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasywheels121 Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 Manny Ramirez is worth it -- Best right handed hitter in baseball, a joy to watch hit. Magglio Ordonez is not worth it -- An above average ball player, period. Manny solidified his gold glove candidacy last night with the solid play in the 9th..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 12, 2004 Author Share Posted June 12, 2004 Use the 14 million to sign pitching. The sox farm system is stacked with outfielders, I all your years of experience following this team, what makes you so certain we can sign a front line FA pitcher? What makes you so certain we can get a player who isn't looking for more money than he "is worth"? When you were 12, everyone talked about how stacked our farm system was with can't miss pitching prospects. Remember Rauch? He was the head of the class, now he's the guy that ran out on the team. He was a sure fire, Cy Young candidate, minor league player of the year. Now we're stacked with outfield prospects. You'll understand in a dozen years. I'm done arguing with someone who has at best 4 or 5 years following this team. I have watched them do their best to attract and sign FAs and fail most of the time. I hope they find another E-Lo or Uribe. If you think they'll sign a major FA, I just do not have any confidence. The Yankees will also be looking for pitching, it's their achilles heel. E-Lo, Sho, Uribe these are the guys that we go after, not $$$$ free agents. After Belle, I can understand them being gun shy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
da_bears86 Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 dont give up on him yet tex hes gotta learn about this stuff. remember you were young once and im just like him i dont understand all the economic aspects and junk like that but dont disown him try to teach him and maybe he'll see your way or the right way or whatever way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 12, 2004 Author Share Posted June 12, 2004 dont give up on him yet tex hes gotta learn about this stuff. remember you were young once and im just like him i dont understand all the economic aspects and junk like that but dont disown him try to teach him and maybe he'll see your way or the right way or whatever way He has a lot of very valid thoughts. Trading your everyday best player for a 3rd or fourth starter isn't a bargain in my book. Further, JR has always balked at the type of long term contract it would take to sign a major free agent pitcher. If Buerhle and E-Lo showed signs of slipping, I would be more inclined to agree. Prospect watching is the most frustrating experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
da_bears86 Posted June 12, 2004 Share Posted June 12, 2004 He has a lot of very valid thoughts. Trading your everyday best player for a 3rd or fourth starter isn't a bargain in my book. Further, JR has always balked at the type of long term contract it would take to sign a major free agent pitcher. If Buerhle and E-Lo showed signs of slipping, I would be more inclined to agree. Prospect watching is the most frustrating experience. i dont think so either. i would never give up maggs for a 3rd or 4th starter, if we're gonna deal maggs at least get somethin good for him and im not talkin about beltran either because that is not a bargain either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 OK, I'm getting into a few flame wars here and I am wondering what everyone means when they say a player is "worth it" Worth it to whom? The fans? The owners? Their team mates? Please what's your definition? Worth it is hard to say. To me a player is worth it if they have an affordable contract (compared to their production) and if it doesn't cost too much to get them in terms of trade. It also depends on what JR is willing to do in terms of the budget. To the Yanks, overpaying a guy a few million isn't a raw deal, but to the Sox, it could really put them in a financial bind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 He has a lot of very valid thoughts. Trading your everyday best player for a 3rd or fourth starter isn't a bargain in my book. Further, JR has always balked at the type of long term contract it would take to sign a major free agent pitcher. If Buerhle and E-Lo showed signs of slipping, I would be more inclined to agree. Prospect watching is the most frustrating experience. Since when would we be 'trading' Maggs for a third starter? If anything, we'd lose Maggs after the year, and get two prospects, and three pitchers, one being a starter. I have confidence we can sign Freddy Garcia after this season, and if you want to call him a number 3, so be it. He's a number 2 IMO - now, sign E-Lo, and now we have a very solid rotation. Pitching>Hitting. BTW, it isn't just the Sox who don't sign pitchers long term. A three-four year contract is the norm, so don't go saying "JR This, JR That". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Mark, E-Lo, Garland, Sho, and Diaz/Rauch/Munoz whichever prospect pans out. Can't have E-Lo... So gotta stick two prospects in the mix, because we won't be able to resign E-Lo unless we have financial flexibility... Buerhle-Garland-Scotty S-?-? Great rotation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 dont give up on him yet tex hes gotta learn about this stuff. remember you were young once and im just like him i dont understand all the economic aspects and junk like that but dont disown him try to teach him and maybe he'll see your way or the right way or whatever way Yeah - Teach him that one guy making a quarter of the payroll is a good thing! Rowand knows his stuff sox86. Don't try and pity up on him - he knows a lot more than others on this board... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 13, 2004 Author Share Posted June 13, 2004 Can't have E-Lo... So gotta stick two prospects in the mix, because we won't be able to resign E-Lo unless we have financial flexibility... Buerhle-Garland-Scotty S-?-? Great rotation. And how do you know this? How about the Valentin and Koch savings? How about an increase in payroll? Frank's option is plus or minus 3 million depending on who excercises their option. $11 million is the team does, $8 million if Frank does. Are you planning on exercising Frank's option at $11 million? or saving some mney there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 And how do you know this? How about the Valentin and Koch savings? How about an increase in payroll? Frank's option is plus or minus 3 million depending on who excercises their option. $11 million is the team does, $8 million if Frank does. Are you planning on exercising Frank's option at $11 million? or saving some mney there? Extending Frank - I think Garland is getting around the time of an extension too. Lee's contract goes up next year. Schoenwies' money he makes goes up too. If we resign E-Lo and Maggs, then that's about it for free agents... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
da_bears86 Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 i think we gotta stick with e-lo cause prospects mean just that prospects you dont know if they are gonna be good or if they will blow majorly. koch will mostlikely be gone freeing up 6.5 mill. too soon to say about maggs and valetin will prolly be gone and they will put uribe there and let harris play 2nd. that frees up alot of money that wasnt involved with maggs to sign back esty and work on getting another relif pitcher or starter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 13, 2004 Author Share Posted June 13, 2004 Extending Frank - I think Garland is getting around the time of an extension too. Lee's contract goes up next year. Schoenwies' money he makes goes up too. If we resign E-Lo and Maggs, then that's about it for free agents... You would extend Frank at $11 million?! Do you think another team would sign him at more than $8 million? I wouldn't and I expect him to exercise his option at $8 million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 You would extend Frank at $11 million?! Do you think another team would sign him at more than $8 million? I wouldn't and I expect him to exercise his option at $8 million. Frank's personal option (IIRC) is for 8 million. The team option is for 11 million. I think Frank will take his option of 8 million... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 13, 2004 Author Share Posted June 13, 2004 Frank's personal option (IIRC) is for 8 million. The team option is for 11 million. I think Frank will take his option of 8 million... I thought you were advocating the team taking their option. Because of his contribution to the club, I would like to see a new deal at close to $8 with incentives above that. I think it will be ugly if Frank has to take his option. But no way I would take the $11 option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 I thought you were advocating the team taking their option. Because of his contribution to the club, I would like to see a new deal at close to $8 with incentives above that. I think it will be ugly if Frank has to take his option. But no way I would take the $11 option. Yeah - if Frank doesn't take his option, a real tough decision is going to have to be made. But I'm pretty positive he'll take his 8 million dollar option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 13, 2004 Author Share Posted June 13, 2004 Yeah - if Frank doesn't take his option, a real tough decision is going to have to be made. But I'm pretty positive he'll take his 8 million dollar option. I'm not certain at what point he can exercise the option. Usually it is before any FA negotiations. It would be interesting how they structured Frank's. Wasn't it Roberto Alomar who refused our offer and signed for less? I'm glad he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 I'm not certain at what point he can exercise the option. Usually it is before any FA negotiations. It would be interesting how they structured Frank's. Wasn't it Roberto Alomar who refused our offer and signed for less? I'm glad he did. Well, yeah. Robby thought he'd get out more on the open market, when, in fact he got two million less IIRC. I, like you, am glad he isn't there. Willie you rock! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 dont give up on him yet tex hes gotta learn about this stuff. remember you were young once and im just like him i dont understand all the economic aspects and junk like that but dont disown him try to teach him and maybe he'll see your way or the right way or whatever way You guys have missed the whole point of my argument. You add 3 quality players to replace one player that isn't worth the money he is asking for. Don't tell me I don't understand the economics of baseball because that's a huge issue with everything. The white sox can't afford to spend 14 million on one player with the self imposed budget that they have. The sox already have a great offensive core in place for next year, pitching they don't. Add 2 pitchers and a position player or maybe 3 pitchers. With the sox self imposed budget it just isn't smart to take up a quarter of your payroll on one player where there is depth in the organization. Say what you want about prospects but reed and borchard are eventually going to get their opportunity and plug one of them in right field and fill holes elsewhere with the money. I never said trade maggs for a 3rd starter I said trade maggs in the lineup for reed or borchard and 3 quality pitchers or 2 quality pitchers and a position player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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