Gammons: Catcher and 3rd Base

[Chisoxfn]

I forgot...who did we trade royce ring to??

Mets along with Edwin Almonte who ended up being released. By the way, welcome aboard

[redandwhite]

Mets along with Edwin Almonte who ended up being released.  By the way, welcome aboard   

Edwin Almonte is now with the Red Sox.

[BobDylan]

A couple of points:

 

They traded Ring, the same thing could happen with Fields.  I am higher on Fields than Crede, in fact.

 

I'm saying just because Fields was drafted doesn't mean it's an automatic Crede is out the door.  You say they wouldn't draft a 3B if they didn't think poorly of Crede, or at least have questions about him.  Where is that stated, or is that simply conjecture on your part?  You're making an assumption.

 

Another thing to consider, the Sox have absolutely no depth at 3B in the system.  It's taken Borchard almost 4 years to get close to being ready, Fields has a similar profile.  It could very well take Fields just as long.  I hope it doesn't, but saying that Crede has no future is flat out assumption.

 

What speculation has there been that Williams is down on Crede?  I've not seen anything, and KW is usually pretty open about perceived needs.  He felt this team was a contender going into the year, with Crede a big part of the puzzle.  If, on the basis of 60 games, a young players future can be written off ... well, that's a little extreme.  That is one of the big differences between being a fan (you AND me) vs. being Sox management.  Just a hunch on my part, but I think they're a little more patient on Crede's future than you are.

 

You might not be the only one speculating Crede's exit, but you said his future was "spent" in the Sox organization, and it's "becoming clear that KW is willing to deal him".  And I asked, where do you get that from, is it just a guess on your part, based only on the drafting of Fields?

 

There's one starting catcher too.  They picked Lucey very high, does that mean Olivo is on the way out?

 

Of course there's room for more pitchers, the Sox always draft pitchers.  Based on your logic, every time they take a position player (or reliever) with their first pick, the incumbent is on the way out.  My contention is, why?  It isn't necessarily the case.  You stated it so definitively, I wanted to know if you'd read something or heard a quote from KW.  Is it just speculation on your part?

 

And yes, a player can indeed slide over from SS to 3B.  That doesn't mean he will.  It also doesn't mean Crede is expendable, just because you're down on him and/or Fields was drafted.

I know what assumption is, or would you like to get me a dictionary definition? Of course everything I am saying is assumption or speculation. Who the hell do you think I am? Hemond?

 

I never said it was an automatic that Crede is out the door. All I'm saying is with the way Uribe is playing, and an option on the farm, Crede is expendable. You put words into my mouth by saying "...it's an automatic Crede is out the door." And you're trying to tell me what I'm assuming?

 

Fields background should not be related to Borchards. Just because it's taken Joe awhile to get where he's at, doesn't mean Fields will go along the same progession.

It's not as if ALL two sport players go through what Joe has.

 

I'm not saying what is or isn't going to happen. I'm saying what I think is going on. And with Williams interest in Beltran alongside the Royals want for a third baseman, the puzzle pieces seem to be coming together IN MY MIND.

 

It makes sense to draft a catcher high because Sandy is quite old and can't hold up for the long haul anymore. Also, Burke is over the age of 30. It makes perfect sense to try and go out and get a catcher that can compensate for the future loss of these two old catchers.

 

Also, you seem to know the formula for being a general manager. So, why aren't you in player personnel? Same reason I'm not. Everything you say is an assumption, speculation and you know very little inside information as do most fans.

[YASNY]

Anyone that would trade Crede or Olivo for an unsignable or old rent-a-player is nucking futs. Olivo should be untouchable, period. The only way Crede should even considered being traded is if you are certain to get a solid veteran 3B that can hold down the position until Fields is ready. And that is a very risky proposition in itself, as Fields may never make and Crede could be starting the ASG from 2006-2009.

 

Beltran might not be too expensive for us, as his trade value seems to coming back to more realistic terms because of the well known fact he has every intention of going FA and because Boras is his agent. Also, most teams are searching for pitching. Still, all in all, I think I'd rather have Finley for 3 months than Beltran.

[Guest JimH]

I know what assumption is, or would you like to get me a dictionary definition? Of course everything I am saying is assumption or speculation. Who the hell do you think I am? Hemond?

 

I never said it was an automatic that Crede is out the door. All I'm saying is with the way Uribe is playing, and an option on the farm, Crede is expendable. You put words into my mouth by saying "...it's an automatic Crede is out the door." And you're trying to tell me what I'm assuming?

 

Fields background should not be related to Borchards. Just because it's taken Joe awhile to get where he's at, doesn't mean Fields will go along the same progession.

It's not as if ALL two sport players go through what Joe has.

 

I'm not saying what is or isn't going to happen. I'm saying what I think is going on. And with Williams interest in Beltran alongside the Royals want for a third baseman, the puzzle pieces seem to be coming together IN MY MIND.

 

It makes sense to draft a catcher high because Sandy is quite old and can't hold up for the long haul anymore. Also, Burke is over the age of 30. It makes perfect sense to try and go out and get a catcher that can compensate for the future loss of these two old catchers.

 

Also, you seem to know the formula for being a general manager. So, why aren't you in player personnel? Same reason I'm not. Everything you say is an assumption, speculation and you know very little inside information as do most fans.

Let me explain it real slowly for you, because you apparantly don't or can't get it.

 

You SAID Crede was "spent" in this organization, you SAID KW has a willingness to deal him.

 

I asked how you knew that, you were so definitive.

 

I can't read your mind, how in the hell do I know you're making assumptions?

 

Don't come off as though everyone knows what you mean, what you intend, etc.

 

When you make definitive statements like you did, maybe it's YOU who think you should be in player personnel.

 

Did you ever hear of prefacing a statement with, "in my opinion ..."?

 

Maybe that way, we'll all understand you're making an assumption or stating an opinion. How are we to know you haven't read something about Crede somewhere, heard something, heck, maybe you even know Ken Williams, how do we know? You write for this site, you may be connected. I don't know.

 

Fields background shouldn't be related to Borchard? No? Why not? They were both two sport athletes, both played football and baseball, both were college quarterbacks, both had their baseball developmental time cut into by playing football. I don't know about you, but it sure sounds like striking similarities to me.

Or maybe I'm missing something? Is it that you don't WANT Fields learning curve to be the same as Borchard's, and therefore their background shouldn't be related to one another? I do agree that Fields developmental time won't necessarily mirror Borchards, but it might since there are strong similarities. It's certainly not a slam dunk that Fields will be here ASAP, producing at a high level. Don't get me wrong, I hope he comes on like gangbusters. If that happens, GREAT! The White Sox then have a problem of abundance.

 

You said KW has an increased willingness to shop Crede (not a quote, I don't feel like going back through the thread, it was words to that effect). That may be true. I've not heard anything like that. In my opinion, I doubt that's true. Have you heard something different? I'll assume you haven't, because you indicated everything you said was an assumption. And that's cool. But when you make a statement like that, don't get all bent out of shape when someone questions you on it.

 

And did I SAY, or even imply, I knew the formula for being a GM? NO. I DID say I've read quotes from KW on the whole topic we're discussing, and heard them from his own mouth at Sox Fest. You state something completely different than what I read and heard from the man. I stated that White Sox's managements opinion of Crede's future is likely different than yours, seeing as I read and heard from the GM of the White Sox on that exact topic. And I stated as such. And that's become me knowing the formula for being a GM? OK. Nice quantum leap on that one.

 

I actually was in personnel for 15 years, not baseball personnel, but I do understand the aspect of grooming an employee and letting them perform over their mistakes. I am no more happy with Crede's performance at the plate than you are, or any of us are. They are showing confidence in him for a reason. They may be right, and they may be wrong. I don't know, and you don't know. There, happy? Both of us know nothing.

 

Lastly, who's to say they wouldn't move Fields to first base? It's not out of the realm of possibility, just like your scenario. They've discussed moving Konerko at times, particularly last winter, if the media is to be believed. Simply put, drafting Fields gives them another asset. It may cast a cloud on Crede's future, it may not. Lots of things can, and usually do, happen.

[Guest JimH]

Anyone that would trade Crede or Olivo for an unsignable or old rent-a-player is nucking futs.  Olivo should be untouchable, period.  The only way Crede should even considered being traded is if you are certain to get a solid veteran 3B that can hold down the position until Fields is ready.  And that is a very risky proposition in itself, as Fields may never make and Crede could be starting the ASG from 2006-2009. 

 

Beltran might not be too expensive for us, as his trade value seems to coming back to more realistic terms because of the well known fact he has every intention of going FA and because Boras is his agent.  Also, most teams are searching for pitching.  Still, all in all, I think I'd rather have Finley for 3 months than Beltran.

Agree 100% on this one. What KC wants for Beltran and what they'll get might be two drastically different things.

 

Now, would I do Crede to KC for rent-a-Beltran, Randa, and a good pitching prospect? Hmmm ...

 

Very risky to trade within your own division, but hey, it's all about risks ain't it?

 

One thing KW has said is he has not been talking to other teams, in terms of trades, for guys from the current Sox roster. The last I heard him say that was on AM1000 about two weeks ago.

 

I sense, and this is only my opinion, they have good chemistry right now. KW may be reluctant to change it, if that's true.

[JUGGERNAUT]

I do not believe KW will be involved in the Beltran sweeps. It's been on record for over a month that KW has been trying to get Garcia from the M's. The problem is the M's just won 6 out of their last 10 so the fat lady has not entered the bldg yet.

 

The M's have a reasonable sched to finish off the 1st half: Milw, Pitt, Tex (7 gms), SD, StL, Tor, & CWS. Most of them are on the road. I think the fat lady should be entering the bldg with them being 12 gms out, but this would be their last hurrah so to speak before the break. If they win against Milw & Pitts, Garcia will stay another week. If they lose I think KW gets the deal done.

 

Garcia's making just under 7 mil with a 3.20 era.

The SOX will pick up about 4 mil if they get him before Jul.

This makes the most sense for the SOX.

 

KW will likewise try to shore up the bullpen like he did last yr.

That will probably cost another 2 mil.

 

As for Crede, he has proven time & again to be a good 2nd half hitter so I would roll the dice on him. The newest draft choice is a plan to replace Joe when he exhausts his UFA yrs which start next yr. That gives the SOX 2-3 yrs more use of Joe.

[The_Godfather]

You know I was reading this thread and to be real honest alot of you guys make no sense. First thing as much as I like Beltran it makes no sense for us to even consider trading for him. Our biggest weakness is pitching that being said we need to concentrate all trade efforts on picking up a solid 1 or 2 type SP. With Willie playing CF i really dont see CF as much of a need. Everyone in here seems to be disagreeing about who they rather have between two guys that IMO arent worth the trouble to get. Beltran would cost the Sox to much in terms of talent and salary owed over the remainder of the season so you can forget about him. Finely isnt worth getting he has been hot of late but the guy is 40 years old and is clearly playing over his skill lvl. I would much rather see the Sox pick-up a Sp ala Ben Sheets or Freddy Garcia then either of these two hitters our team has plenty of bats with more bats ready to go in the minors. If we are going to give up alot of talent in term of minor league players for a player I would look for that guy to Ben Sheets not Garcia or Beltran or Finely with Sheets he would be here for the next 2-3 years as for the others they would only be here for the next 4-5 months makes no sense in my book. Another thing those of you who really think that the sox will trade for beltran and lock him up long term are smoking the good s*** cause Boras will not allow that to happen even if he did what would make you think the sox would spend the money on beltran when they clearly dont want to spend the money on Maggs who has been here since the start. It will never happen, The sox will make a move but it will be for a pitcher not a hitter and if they do make a move for a hitter expect it to happen in july not now

[JUGGERNAUT]

You know I was reading this thread and to be real honest alot of you guys make no sense. First thing as much as I like Beltran it makes no sense for us to even consider trading for him. Our biggest weakness is pitching that being said we need to concentrate all trade efforts on picking up a solid 1 or 2 type SP. With Willie playing CF i really dont see CF as much of a need. Everyone in here seems to be disagreeing about who they rather have between two guys that IMO arent worth the trouble to get. Beltran would cost the Sox to much in terms of talent and salary owed over the remainder of the season so you can forget about him. Finely isnt worth getting he has been hot of late but the guy is 40 years old and is clearly playing over his skill lvl. I would much rather see the Sox pick-up a Sp ala Ben Sheets or Freddy Garcia then either of these two hitters our team has plenty of bats with more bats ready to go in the minors. If we are going to give up alot of talent in term of minor league players for a player I would look for that guy to Ben Sheets not Garcia or Beltran or Finely with Sheets he would be here for the next 2-3 years as for the others they would only be here for the next 4-5 months makes no sense in my book. Another thing those of you who really think that the sox will trade for beltran and lock him up long term are smoking the good s*** cause Boras will not allow that to happen even if he did what would make you think the sox would spend the money on beltran when they clearly dont want to spend the money on Maggs who has been here since the start. It will never happen, The sox will make a move but it will be for a pitcher not a hitter and if they do make a move for a hitter expect it to happen in july not now

WHAT IN YOUR RIGHT MIND MAKES YOU THINK SHEETS OR FINELY ARE EVEN AVAILABLE?

 

Have you not been paying attention to the NLC? Why would Milwaukee trade Sheets when they are right behind the snubs in the standings? They still have a legitimate shot to take that division! You have a better shot at a date with Jennifer Love Hewitt then the SOX have at getting Sheets in a trade. What makes it worse is you refer to other posters not having any sense. I have something to tell you & hopefully you're listening: the other MLB teams are not in existence to help the WHITE SOX win a World Series. They don't offer a Sheets to the WHITE SOX. Sheets is the best thing going for the Brewers. You can expect them to do all that is in their power to keep him.

 

Talk about a dreamer? Why hell, the Marlins should just offer us a Beckett because we are the WHITE SOX

[The Beast]

Look, if its Carlos Beltran...its a once in a lifetime chance. Regarde, we also must remember he probably doesn't want to stay with us. Hell. Lets go for it this year. We can always acquire some other catcher IF it is in a 3 way trade.

 

No way in hell we trade Olivo.

 

Crede, get out of town, I hate you anyway, you suck so bad I want to cry.

 

I agree with Ozzie's statement, "I wanna win, and I wanna win now."

[The_Godfather]

WHAT IN YOUR RIGHT MIND MAKES YOU THINK SHEETS OR FINELY ARE EVEN AVAILABLE? 

 

Have you not been paying attention to the NLC?  Why would Milwaukee trade Sheets when they are right behind the snubs in the standings? They still have a legitimate shot to take that division! You have a better shot at a date with Jennifer Love Hewitt then the SOX have at getting Sheets in a trade.  What makes it worse is you refer to other posters not having any sense.  I have something to tell you & hopefully you're listening: the other MLB teams are not in existence to help the WHITE SOX win a World Series.  They don't offer a Sheets to the WHITE SOX.  Sheets is the best thing going for the Brewers.  You can expect them to do all that is in their power to keep him.

 

Talk about a dreamer?  Why hell, the Marlins should just offer us a Beckett because we are the WHITE SOX 

Going off what the brew crew has done in the past and the fact that they are currently not a contender ( you must be a foll If you think they are ) they are willing to listen to offers for Sheets. In my statement I didnt not say that he was on the market what I did say is if the Sox were to trade away top line talent it would be a for a SP ala Ben Sheets / Freddy Garcia. For your infromation sheets is on the market incase you havent been keeping up on your Baseball info maybe you should invest sometime doing reserch before opening your big mouth!!! The brewers are shoping him quitely gauging what they would be able to get for a player they know they cant afford to keep much longer, what the rule of business oh thats right SELL HIGH do you really feel Sheets value has EVER been higher then what it is right now???? As for the whole Finely thing I didnt say I wanted him instead I said I would NOT want him, or you know what I said we dont need him that was in response to the numerous amount of psters on here who were sayiong we should trade for him. Please next time you make a comment about what i write read the dam statement fully before opening your mouth in order to avoid your foot getting stuck in you mouth again...

[Steff]

Then someone should tell Ben this... according to him he's been told he's NOT being shopped.

[southsider2k5]

Then someone should tell Ben this... according to him he's been told he's NOT being shopped.

But that would involve implicitly believing the Seligs.

[Steff]

But that would involve implicitly believing the Seligs.

You have a point there.. but there was also rumors about Geoff being shopped previously... they told him he wasn't.. and he wasn't. Seeing as how Ben is a much better asset than Jenkins... (that's gonna come back to haunt me I just know it... ) I believe what he says.

[Soxbadger]

At the beginning of the year, I thought Beltran was one of the best MLB players with some of the best upside.

 

But even I would not consider a Miguel + Crede for Beltran trade.

 

If there was a serious deal for Beltran, they could have 1, and there choice of a top pitching or top outfielding prospect, plus a lower level of whatever they did not choose (if they picked Rauch, they could get lower level of, if they took Reed, lower level pitcher).

 

That would be the basic structure I would offer, with different level of players depending on who they chose etc.

 

The reality is, even that seems to be overpaying for a player who we really will have almost no liklihood of signing.

 

Might as well get a player we desperately need if we are going to start sending away that much.

 

SB

[JUGGERNAUT]

THERE IS NO F'G WAY WE GIVE OLIVO TO KC TO RENT BELTRAN FOR THE 2ND HALF!

That's insane! If Olivo was part of a deal to get Smoltz or The Big Unit or Ben Sheets ( ) then I might consider it. But no way for a position player. To win a World Series you need a Josh Beckett type player. Beltran is not going to put us over the top.

[SuperSteve]

Look, if its Carlos Beltran...its a once in a lifetime chance. Regarde, we also must remember he probably doesn't want to stay with us. Hell. Lets go for it this year. We can always acquire some other catcher IF it is in a 3 way trade.

 

No way in hell we trade Olivo.

 

Crede, get out of town, I hate you anyway, you suck so bad I want to cry.

Everyone was screaming that last season. Everyone will scream it next season. Beltran wouldn't put us over the top. I agree with many people who say it is pitching. I say we keep our kids (Reed, Honel, et al), and build the way that the Marlins did. I personally would be heartbroken by a white flag trade but, I would completly understand it.

[BrandoFan]

THERE IS NO F'G WAY WE GIVE OLIVO TO KC TO RENT BELTRAN FOR THE 2ND HALF!

That's insane! If Olivo was part of a deal to get Smoltz or The Big Unit or Ben Sheets ( ) then I might consider it.  But no way for a position player.  To win a World Series you need a Josh Beckett type player.  Beltran is not going to put us over the top.

Olivo is special. We don't know what his ceiling is. It makes no sense.

 

Crede's potential is worth a hellalot more to the Sox than his current production is worth to KC. Why would they do Crede for Beltran straight-up?

 

If I am Baird, I say:

 

Olivo + Crede = Beltran

Crede + Reed + Cotts = Beltran + prospect

[Wise Master Buehrle]

Milwaukee is above .500 and I believe about 4.5 games out of 1st place. They aren't ready to shop players yet. Sheets would be GREAT but I don't think it's going to happen.

[BobDylan]

Let me explain it real slowly for you, because you apparantly don't or can't get it.

 

You SAID Crede was "spent" in this organization, you SAID KW has a willingness to deal him.

 

I asked how you knew that, you were so definitive.

 

I can't read your mind, how in the hell do I know you're making assumptions?

 

Don't come off as though everyone knows what you mean, what you intend, etc.

 

When you make definitive statements like you did, maybe it's YOU who think you should be in player personnel.

 

Did you ever hear of prefacing a statement with, "in my opinion ..."?

 

Maybe that way, we'll all understand you're making an assumption or stating an opinion.  How are we to know you haven't read something about Crede somewhere, heard something, heck, maybe you even know Ken Williams, how do we know? You write for this site, you may be connected.  I don't know.

 

Fields background shouldn't be related to Borchard?  No?  Why not?  They were both two sport athletes, both played football and baseball, both were college quarterbacks, both had their baseball developmental time cut into by playing football.  I don't know about you, but it sure sounds like striking similarities to me.

Or maybe I'm missing something?  Is it that you don't WANT Fields learning curve to be the same as Borchard's, and therefore their background shouldn't be related to one another? I do agree that Fields developmental time won't necessarily mirror Borchards, but it might since there are strong similarities.  It's certainly not a slam dunk that Fields will be here ASAP, producing at a high level.  Don't get me wrong, I hope he comes on like gangbusters.  If that happens, GREAT!  The White Sox then have a problem of abundance.

 

You said KW has an increased willingness to shop Crede (not a quote, I don't feel like going back through the thread, it was words to that effect).  That may be true.  I've not heard anything like that.  In my opinion, I doubt that's true.  Have you heard something different?  I'll assume you haven't, because you indicated everything you said was an assumption.  And that's cool.  But when you make a statement like that, don't get all bent out of shape when someone questions you on it.

 

And did I SAY, or even imply, I knew the formula for being a GM?  NO.  I DID say I've read quotes from KW on the whole topic we're discussing, and heard them from his own mouth at Sox Fest.  You state something completely different than what I read and heard from the man.  I stated that White Sox's managements opinion of Crede's future is likely different than yours, seeing as I read and heard from the GM of the White Sox on that exact topic.  And I stated as such.  And that's become me knowing the formula for being a GM?  OK.  Nice quantum leap on that one.

 

I actually was in personnel for 15 years, not baseball personnel, but I do understand the aspect of grooming an employee and letting them perform over their mistakes.  I am no more happy with Crede's performance at the plate than you are, or any of us are.  They are showing confidence in him for a reason.  They may be right, and they may be wrong.  I don't know, and you don't know.  There, happy?  Both of us know nothing.

 

Lastly, who's to say they wouldn't move Fields to first base?  It's not out of the realm of possibility, just like your scenario.  They've discussed moving Konerko at times, particularly last winter, if the media is to be believed.  Simply put, drafting Fields gives them another asset.  It may cast a cloud on Crede's future, it may not. Lots of things can, and usually do, happen.

Keep it in the thread. No need to PM me and start cussing at me. It's just a game.

[Guest JimH]

Keep it in the thread. No need to PM me and start cussing at me. It's just a game.

Yeah, YOU didn't cuss?

 

Don't try to be Mr. Above It All, you're not. I'll use PM's whenever I feel the need, thank you very much.

[BrandoFan]

Keep it in the thread. No need to PM me and start cussing at me. It's just a game.

[Guest JimH]

 

SHOCKED you would chime in!

[BobDylan]

Yeah, YOU didn't cuss?

 

Don't try to be Mr. Above It All, you're not.  I'll use PM's whenever I feel the need, thank you very much.

 

   

 

[Guest JimH]

 

   

 

Wow, sounds like you guys are