Gammons: Catcher and 3rd Base

[BobDylan]

First, Crede is not "obviously expendable" because of Uribe.  Uribe has played very little 3B and his future is NOT at 3B.  Despite his struggles this year at the plate, Crede is a good defensive 3B.

How many years of 3B experience did Valentin have before we moved him into that role? How many years of 3B experience did A-Rod have before moving to third base?

 

As a middle infielder, the transition isn't that rough. It takes a few weeks, but overall, it's not the toughest transition to make.

 

Crede is expendable with Uribe.

[BobDylan]

Then why is Olivo's name in the post?    In his previous post he talked about Burke, then someone said he is 30 and the subject of the post turned to Olivo...

 

Eh, my brain is screwy right now anyway, I am sure I am missing something...

My bad, I didn't finish reading the post and I thought it was an earlier one about Burke. My apologies Jeckle.

[witesoxfan]

Crede is expendable with Uribe.

Crede could be moved and it wouldn't be the world's biggest loss.

 

But let's not move him for a Scott Boras client, please.

 

Someone else can have Beltran, let us have Finley.

[BobDylan]

Crede could be moved and it wouldn't be the world's biggest loss.

 

But let's not move him for a Scott Boras client, please.

 

Someone else can have Beltran, let us have Finley.

I'll agree with that statement.

[AngelasDaddy0427]

Crede I can see...

But it will be a cold day in hell before they trade Olivo...

Catchers like him come along like once every 5 years and we don't have too many young players in the minors to take his place...

[CWSGuy406]

:dips***

Why in the hell would we trade Miguel Olivo...

For god sakes he can throw, hit {Which he is proving this year}, and can call a damn good game.

I'm not giving him up for some overrated CF who well demand a huge contact that will cripple this team.

Sometimes I wonder if some of you know anything about baseball whatsoever....

I don't want to be like the Rangers, finishing in last place because we spent all our money on one player.

We trade Olivo and KW should be fired and the team contracted....

NO f***ING WAY DO WE TRADE OLIVO... :headshake

Hey Jeckle - how about taking the time to actually READ what Seal said?

 

He said "I agree with you about Olivo (Being fixtures on this team for a long time, which, in terms you can understand, means NOT TRADING him.)

 

Don't give Seal the dips*** sign, you're the one who deserves it. :dips***

[BrandoFan]

Crede could be moved and it wouldn't be the world's biggest loss.

 

For Jason Schmidt? Sure.

 

For Beltran? If it's one for one, maybe. But they'd want Olivo, too.

 

For Finley? No way. He is almost 40 and could be had for Josh Rupe-type prospects.

[Guest JimH]

How many years of 3B experience did Valentin have before we moved him into that role? How many years of 3B experience did A-Rod have before moving to third base?

 

As a middle infielder, the transition isn't that rough. It takes a few weeks, but overall, it's not the toughest transition to make.

 

Crede is expendable with Uribe.

No, Crede is NOT expendable due to Uribe.

 

Why?

 

Because the plan is to move Uribe over to fulltime SS when Valentin is done as a White Sox, perhaps as soon as April 2005.

 

That plan has been stated by KW all along.

 

Uribe's emergence has nothing to do with Crede. It "may" have something to do with Valentin going out the door quicker than expected (end of this year).

 

Uribe is not in the White Sox's plan as a 3B. Crede is.

 

Now, if Fields comes quickly, let's say mid-2005, then Crede might be expendable.

 

There's a big difference between a fan's thought process vs. the stated plans of White Sox management.

[CWSGuy406]

For Jason Schmidt?  Sure.

 

For Beltran? If it's one for one, maybe. But they'd want Olivo, too.

 

For Finley?  No way.    He is almost 40 and could be had for Josh Rupe-type prospects.

I agree - IMO we're three players away from being really, really good. A starter - a trustable reliever, and a bat (Finley, Finley, or Finley).

[Guest JimH]

I agree - IMO we're three players away from being really, really good.  A starter - a trustable reliever, and a bat (Finley, Finley, or Finley).

Hey Keith, how about Finley instead?

[CWSGuy406]

Hey Keith, how about Finley instead? 

Hmm - that's a toughy.

 

 

Sounds good Jim!

[Rowand44]

I agree - IMO we're three players away from being really, really good.  A starter - a trustable reliever, and a bat (Finley, Finley, or Finley).

The third guy you mentioned has some serious potential.

[redandwhite]

Let KC trade Beltran elsewhere.  Let us have Finley.  He costs less, and while is maybe not just as good, he is still a very solid player.  He has a ring and has been to two different World Series.

He still makes just as much as Beltran in terms of money, so he also probably limits us from acquiring a Garcia.

 

I'd rather see a Matt Stairs or Jeromy Burnitz or as much as you guys don't really like him, even Brian Daubach who would cost pennies if that.

[BobDylan]

No, Crede is NOT expendable due to Uribe.

 

Why?

 

Because the plan is to move Uribe over to fulltime SS when Valentin is done as a White Sox, perhaps as soon as April 2005.

 

That plan has been stated by KW all along.

 

Uribe's emergence has nothing to do with Crede.  It "may" have something to do with Valentin going out the door quicker than expected (end of this year).

 

Uribe is not in the White Sox's plan as a 3B.  Crede is.

 

Now, if Fields comes quickly, let's say mid-2005, then Crede might be expendable.

 

There's a big difference between a fan's thought process vs. the stated plans of White Sox management.

I never said anything about Uribe being the future at 3B.

 

The White Sox can sign a short term replacement next season for a year or two until they feel Fields is ready. Crede is hardly the White Sox plans at 3B anymore. His long and upper cut swing hasn't shown many signs of being cut down, and his defense doesn't make up for his overall lack of production.

 

Sure, he has a nice amount of home runs, and some big hits, but Crede is not the guy the Sox should count on to come up with a big hit. In drafting Fields, Crede's future is spent in the White Sox organization.

 

Maybe Crede will develop in the long term, but it's becoming clear KW is willing to deal him.

 

And that last statement you made? Come on. You glorified yourself as if you think like management, yet I'm just a lowly fan. What a joke. And the 'stated' plans are that Crede IS expendable. If he was in fact the future of the hot corner, would the Sox draft a 3B first overall in their selections? No.

[redandwhite]

And that last statement you made? Come on. You glorified yourself as if you think like management, yet I'm just a lowly fan. What a joke. And the 'stated' plans are that Crede IS expendable. If he was in fact the future of the hot corner, would the Sox draft a 3B first overall in their selections? No.

It's very possible.

[AngelasDaddy0427]

Hey Jeckle - how about taking the time to actually READ what Seal said?

 

He said "I agree with you about Olivo (Being fixtures on this team for a long time, which, in terms you can understand, means NOT TRADING him.)

 

Don't give Seal the dips*** sign, you're the one who deserves it.  :dips***

Dude Dips*** was directed at this guy....

Yeah, I know. But maybe the Royals are that desperate....I wish. I don't really want to see Olivo gone, but if it means seeing Beltran here for long term, go right ahead.

 

That was posted by whitesoxin'

Sorry I didn't realize that the :dips*** sign only refered to the post directly above me....

I think the content of my post made it obvious which post I was replying to of course I realize now I should of used the Quote....

[SuperSteve]

I'll agree with that statement.

I agree with it too.

[Guest JimH]

I never said anything about Uribe being the future at 3B.

 

The White Sox can sign a short term replacement next season for a year or two until they feel Fields is ready. Crede is hardly the White Sox plans at 3B anymore. His long and upper cut swing hasn't shown many signs of being cut down, and his defense doesn't make up for his overall lack of production.

 

Sure, he has a nice amount of home runs, and some big hits, but Crede is not the guy the Sox should count on to come up with a big hit. In drafting Fields, Crede's future is spent in the White Sox organization.   

 

Maybe Crede will develop in the long term, but it's becoming clear KW is willing to deal him.

 

And that last statement you made? Come on. You glorified yourself as if you think like management, yet I'm just a lowly fan. What a joke. And the 'stated' plans are that Crede IS expendable. If he was in fact the future of the hot corner, would the Sox draft a 3B first overall in their selections? No.

You're making assumptions about what I meant.

 

I did not glorify myself as being management and look down on you as some lowly fan. You're reading something into my statement that's not there.

 

All I said was KW has stated the plan all along, in terms of why they got Uribe. He is a potential long term solution at shortstop.

 

Where do you get your information that Crede's future is spent here, and that it's becoming clear KW is willing to deal him?

 

Is that just speculation on your part? My statement about Uribe being a possible long term solution at SS is something that's been in print, a quote from KW, actually several quotes ... in the papers, on the Sox website, and at SoxFest.

 

What "stated" plans are there that Crede is expendable? I've seen no such stated plans, except from you, here in this thread.

 

Lastly, just because they drafted Josh Fields does not mean Crede is out the door.

The White Sox felt he was the best hitter, and the best player available to them at that slot. They drafted Royce Ring, and traded him. So it's no guarantee Fields will be pushing Crede out of a future with the Sox.

 

The Sox drafted three or four lefthanded starters in the first few rounds, does that mean Buerhle has no future in the Sox organization?

[sox-r-us]

I love this quote:

 

"If Kenny Williams can't shake the Mariners into the trade mode," says another GM, "no one can."

[qwerty]

I love this quote:

 

"If Kenny Williams can't shake the Mariners into the trade mode," says another GM, "no one can."

Lol that is a good one maybe should be in the june qoutes of the month.

[BobDylan]

You're making assumptions about what I meant.

 

I did not glorify myself as being management and look down on you as some lowly fan.  You're reading something into my statement that's not there.

 

All I said was KW has stated the plan all along, in terms of why they got Uribe.  He is a potential long term solution at shortstop.

 

Where do you get your information that Crede's future is spent here, and that it's becoming clear KW is willing to deal him?

 

Is that just speculation on your part?  My statement about Uribe being a possible long term solution at SS is something that's been in print, a quote from KW, actually several quotes ... in the papers, on the Sox website, and at SoxFest.

 

What "stated" plans are there that Crede is expendable?  I've seen no such stated plans, except from you, here in this thread.

 

Lastly, just because they drafted Josh Fields does not mean Crede is out the door.

The White Sox felt he was the best hitter, and the best player available to them at that slot.  They drafted Royce Ring, and traded him.  So it's no guarantee Fields will be pushing Crede out of a future with the Sox.

 

The Sox drafted three or four lefthanded starters in the first few rounds, does that mean Buerhle has no future in the Sox organization?

If you have a bonafied future with a player, as you seem to be suggesting with Crede, you don't draft a player that plays the same position with your first selection in the draft. The Royce Ring draft choice came in a time Foulke's future with the White Sox was up in the air.

 

Do you see the Rangers drafting a second baseman, or the Twins a catcher? No, because they feel they have the long term solutions. It's becoming speculation that Kenny doesn't feel the same about Crede.

 

And again, I never said Uribe would become the long term solution at third base with the White Sox. It's not impossible to play a position for half a season and move back. Players have done it before, and it wouldn't be a crime against Uribe if the Sox wanted him to do it.

 

And your Buehrle example was poor. There are 5 starters, and at least 6 relievers. Thus plenty of room to draft pitchers. There is only 1 starting third baseman. It's only natural to begin wondering about Crede's future if the Sox go off and draft a third baseman as their first choice. I know I'm not the only one that is speculating Crede's exit.

[Chisoxfn]

Dylan, you NEVER, EVER, EVER draft a player based on organizational need, you always draft based on talent and in some instances signability.

 

Fields was not drafted because the Sox aren't pleased with Crede. He was the best or one of the best college position prospects in what was a pitching strong draft. Most of the college pitchers went off the board leaving the Sox with Fields and Szymanski, they probably graded the two out near even and then and then only they looked at organizational strength to note that Fields plays a position the Sox lack.

 

And I have no doubt the Sox have Crede in their future plans. He plays gold glove defense, can hit the ball out of the park, and at times has shown that he can be a good average hitter (2nd half of last season and throughout his minor league career). No doubt he is in a funk right now, and he may get limited playing time if he stays in it, but in no way do I think that means the organization thinks nothing of him.

 

However, I think if a deal came up where the Sox could get better they would consider moving Crede. However, playing Uribe at 3rd for the season isn't detrimental, even if the SOx figure on him playing SS in the future.

 

The Sox could always sign a stop gap or even someone like Joe Randa. If they get Beltran then Harris will move back to 2nd and you want Juan playing everyday and he plays very good defense (even at 3rd and he's already playing out of his future position of shortstop). That is to me the #1 reason Crede is possibly expendable.

[Guest JimH]

If you have a bonafied future with a player, as you seem to be suggesting with Crede, you don't draft a player that plays the same position with your first selection in the draft. The Royce Ring draft choice came in a time Foulke's future with the White Sox was up in the air.

 

Do you see the Rangers drafting a second baseman, or the Twins a catcher? No, because they feel they have the long term solutions. It's becoming speculation that Kenny doesn't feel the same about Crede.

 

And again, I never said Uribe would become the long term solution at third base with the White Sox. It's not impossible to play a position for half a season and move back. Players have done it before, and it wouldn't be a crime against Uribe if the Sox wanted him to do it.

 

And your Buehrle example was poor. There are 5 starters, and at least 6 relievers. Thus plenty of room to draft pitchers. There is only 1 starting third baseman. It's only natural to begin wondering about Crede's future if the Sox go off and draft a third baseman as their first choice. I know I'm not the only one that is speculating Crede's exit.

A couple of points:

 

They traded Ring, the same thing could happen with Fields. I am higher on Fields than Crede, in fact.

 

I'm saying just because Fields was drafted doesn't mean it's an automatic Crede is out the door. You say they wouldn't draft a 3B if they didn't think poorly of Crede, or at least have questions about him. Where is that stated, or is that simply conjecture on your part? You're making an assumption.

 

Another thing to consider, the Sox have absolutely no depth at 3B in the system. It's taken Borchard almost 4 years to get close to being ready, Fields has a similar profile. It could very well take Fields just as long. I hope it doesn't, but saying that Crede has no future is flat out assumption.

 

What speculation has there been that Williams is down on Crede? I've not seen anything, and KW is usually pretty open about perceived needs. He felt this team was a contender going into the year, with Crede a big part of the puzzle. If, on the basis of 60 games, a young players future can be written off ... well, that's a little extreme. That is one of the big differences between being a fan (you AND me) vs. being Sox management. Just a hunch on my part, but I think they're a little more patient on Crede's future than you are.

 

You might not be the only one speculating Crede's exit, but you said his future was "spent" in the Sox organization, and it's "becoming clear that KW is willing to deal him". And I asked, where do you get that from, is it just a guess on your part, based only on the drafting of Fields?

 

There's one starting catcher too. They picked Lucey very high, does that mean Olivo is on the way out?

 

Of course there's room for more pitchers, the Sox always draft pitchers. Based on your logic, every time they take a position player (or reliever) with their first pick, the incumbent is on the way out. My contention is, why? It isn't necessarily the case. You stated it so definitively, I wanted to know if you'd read something or heard a quote from KW. Is it just speculation on your part?

 

And yes, a player can indeed slide over from SS to 3B. That doesn't mean he will. It also doesn't mean Crede is expendable, just because you're down on him and/or Fields was drafted.

[BrandoFan]

He still makes just as much as Beltran in terms of money, so he also probably limits us from acquiring a Garcia. 

 

I'd rather see a Matt Stairs or Jeromy Burnitz or as much as you guys don't really like him, even Brian Daubach who would cost pennies if that.

Beltran makes 9. Finley - 7

 

Arizona will be willing to pay part of his remaining salary if the prospects are nice, whereas poor KC wants the prospective takers to pay themseleves.

 

So yes, not only would it take less (prospects) to get Finley but it would take less (money) to get Finley.

 

BTW.... You ARE aware that Sox refers to "White Sox" since they predate Bawston counterparts and all?

[redandwhite]

Beltran makes 9. Finley - 7

 

Arizona will be willing to pay part of his remaining salary if the prospects are nice, whereas poor KC wants the prospective takers to pay themseleves.

 

So yes, not only would it take less (prospects) to get Finley but it would take less (money) to get Finley.

 

BTW.... You ARE aware that Sox refers to "White Sox" since they predate Bawston counterparts and all?

7 compared to 9 is "just as much" in my mind, and stating the obvious regarding Finley is not my argument. I simply would rather see a couple other names, not owed money that they aren't deserving of making.

 

As for the predating Boston thing, what exactly are you talking about?