JUGGERNAUT Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 Your worship of Billy Beane,and Moneyball is hysterical, and it spawn some weird-ass logic: "Because Billy Beane deemed it prudent to ____, it should be emulated by the rest of baseball"......Yeah, right. How many wins do the A's have in Beane's tenure? How many MVP's have come out of the A's in that time? Now compare that to the SOX. Did you know Beane said publicly recently he was very happy that he signed that 3 yr extension to Dye when he did? But of course the fact that Dye has 23% more TB than any other player on the A's right now doesn't mean anything. In 2003 Maggs had less than 2% more TB than Carlos. In 2004 Maggs has 30% fewer TB than Frank & 19% fewer than Carlos. Has he been on the DL that long? Is it just possible that his 7% decline in RPG in 2003 is a glimpse of the fewer for a player who was never drafted & signed with the White Sox as a free agent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 I think Moneyball is predicated on balancing two things: A player's fair market value in a league vs A player's production on the team . Magglio's intristic worth: 12-13 Mill. Magglio's value to the Sox: 2nd only to Thomas and MUCH higher than Lee's. Your abitrary and inaccurate way of measuring "fair market value" notwithstanding, IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING that Sox cannot afford a 5/75 contract without Magglio putting up 1000+ OPS/135+ RBI numbers and leading the Sox to at least ALCS in 2004.....But asserting that he is worth less than Dye is pure bulls*** that would get you laughed out of most sports bars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 825 OPS 750 OPS w. RISP. 575 OPS in C&L situations. Average range and no speed. If that. please .. it hurts too much Stats: 2004 H 993 OPS, A 744. A's team OPS 792, SOX team OPS 831 OPS at parks that compare with the SOX: Arlington 1539 OPS, Edison 972 OPS vs Flyball 1057, vs Finesse 1216 A safe estimate would be H 1042, A 780 with the SOX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 But asserting that he is worth less than Dye is pure bulls*** that would get you laughed out of most sports bars. I never asserted that. ALL that I asserted is that Dye at 11.5 mil has proven to be more valuable to the SOX then Maggs at 14 mil. And looking ahead, Dye at less than 33/3 will be more valuable to the SOX then Maggs at 75/5. After looking at the projected FA list for 2004-2005 Dye isn't even at the top of my list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 A safe estimate would be H 1042, A 780 with the SOX. Yeah, a safe BULLs*** estimate would be that. What could have been is just your fanstasy. REALITY says otherwise: in the last 4 years, Magglio has been a better overall hitter, a better clutch hitter, a better fielder, a better runner than Dye. 825 OPS 750 OPS w. RISP. 575 OPS in C&L situations. Average range and no speed. If that That's what your 12-Mill a year, broken-down hero would put up while protected by Carlos Lee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 Brandon does touch on something that is important for the Cell: defense. Part of the equation for determining whether Maggs is worth 20-25% of the SOX payroll includes how much does he factor in saving runs? He is 2nd to Carlos in web-gems. I think we can all agree on that. His ability to make catches at/over the fence/wall is poor. All in all he doesn't offer the SOX much in SB's (9) or in the glove to suggest he's a major factor in saving runs. His ZR is currently .874 where as Lee's is .869 or about a a 1% difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 Yeah, a safe BULLs*** estimate would be that. What could have been is just your fanstasy. REALITY says otherwise: in the last 4 years, Magglio has been a better overall hitter, a better clutch hitter, a better fielder, a better runner than Dye. That's what your 12-Mill a year, broken-down hero would put up while protected by Carlos Lee. Protected by Carlos Lee? He's currently hit cleanup on the A's. Dye would be protected by Uribe (#2) & Thomas (#4) who gave up #3 to Maggs. Reality says lets deal with 2004 since this is a hypothetical pertaining to this year's club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Anyone feel feel sorry for Juggernaut yet? He has had his ass pouned more times in the last few days than 9 year old boy in Bangkok. (yeah I know I am going to hell for that one) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Anyone feel feel sorry for Juggernaut yet? He has had his ass pouned more times in the last few days than 9 year old boy in Bangkok. (yeah I know I am going to hell for that one) Juggernaut is in Soxtalk jail right now, with no homeboys. Oh s***, Juggs just dropped the soap, YET AGAIN. It's almost like he's doing it on purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Anyone feel feel sorry for Juggernaut yet? He has had his ass pouned more times in the last few days than 9 year old boy in Bangkok. (yeah I know I am going to hell for that one) "What is no, Alex" Very Good, please select another answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 "What is no, Alex" Very Good, please select another answer OMFG!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Juggernaut is in Soxtalk jail right now, with no homeboys. Oh s***, Juggs just dropped the soap, YET AGAIN. It's almost like he's doing it on purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 How many wins do the A's have in Beane's tenure? How many MVP's have come out of the A's in that time? Now compare that to the SOX. Beane won the Zito-Mulder-Hudson lottery, and his teams stayed remarkably healthy. Did you know Beane said publicly recently he was very happy that he signed that 3 yr extension to Dye when he did? His enourmous ego would never allow him to admit a mistake. A's won (if you can call it "winning") IN SPITE of Dye, NOT because of him. That 12 Mill could have been spent to alleviate numerous needs that would have likely propelled the A's to the Series. Oops. But of course the fact that Dye has 23% more TB than any other player on the A's right now doesn't mean anything. No, it doesn't. A's are usually an average hitting team at best. It's easier to stand out. In 2003 Maggs had less than 2% more TB than Carlos. How about 1999-2002? In 2004 Maggs has 30% fewer TB than Frank & 19% fewer than Carlos. And? Has he been on the DL that long? Yes, and when he was playing, he was protected by the same Carlos who was hitting .240, which pretty much ensured Maggs wouldn't see any pitches. Is it just possible that his 7% decline in RPG in 2003 is a glimpse of the fewer for a player who was never drafted & signed with the White Sox as a free agent? Everything is possible with selective use of stats. You hate Maggs. You love Frank. Whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Beane won the Zito-Mulder-Hudson lottery, and his teams stayed remarkably healthy. His enourmous ego would never allow him to admit a mistake. A's won (if you can call it "winning") IN SPITE of Dye, NOT because of him. That 12 Mill could have been spent to alleviate numerous needs that would have likely propelled the A's to the Series. Oops. No, it doesn't. A's are usually an average hitting team at best. It's easier to stand out. How about 1999-2002? And? Yes, and when he was playing, he was protected by the same Carlos who was hitting .240, which pretty much ensured Maggs wouldn't see any pitches. Everything is possible with selective use of stats. You hate Maggs. You love Frank. Whatever. Brando, The A's are benefiting from a MLB marketing campaign to make small market teams think they have a chance. No WS in 15 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 If I'm KW I would try to get Cameron from the Mets. A player doesn't go from 5.17 RPG to 3.87 RPG overnight like that. It's obvious he's struggling at Shea. Even so he's still 4th on the Mets in TB (76) with 22 rbi's. I sure do like his 2001-2003 #'s vs ALC: @ the Cell 1427 OPS @ the Jake 1209 OPS @ the Com 1024 OPS @ the Metro 956 OPS I would argue that trading for a 2-time Gold glove wining CF (2001, 2003) would be more valuable to the White Sox toward a pennant than a 5th starter. Excellent jumps, vast territorial range, & more run saving web gems than just about any other player. No one came close in 2003 to the number of catches Cameron had. If the Mets were willing to throw in some cash I think it's worth to get a gold glove CF on the SOX. He's owed 14.666/2 yrs. If the Mets were to throw in say 3 mil the SOX should do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 If I didn't know better.... I'd say that Jugger is Windsock Roman... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 If I didn't know better.... I'd say that Jugger is Windsock Roman... you know better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Reality says lets deal with 2004 since this is a hypothetical pertaining to this year's club. How about....no? Before the seaosn is over, Magglio will be back to 950 OPS while Dye will languish in the low-800's - not exactly worth 12 Mill a year. Magglio will also best him in RO/RISP production as well as Close and Late. And just about everything else. And unlike the A's whose fanbase is unrecoverable and who could care less if Dye stays or leaves...Maggs is Mr. Sox and if it's a matter of paying him 12 Mill or 12.5, or for 4 years or 5, Sox might have to give in since they wouldn't want him going to the Cubs because of a few extra 100K a year. In any case, Maggs wants out, he won't be back anyway, you can look forward to b****ing about 800 OPS Carlos making 9 Mill in 2005. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 you know better? I know best, too. Nice folks.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 Beane won the Zito-Mulder-Hudson lottery, and his teams stayed remarkably healthy. His enourmous ego would never allow him to admit a mistake. A's won (if you can call it "winning") IN SPITE of Dye, NOT because of him. That 12 Mill could have been spent to alleviate numerous needs that would have likely propelled the A's to the Series. Oops. No, it doesn't. A's are usually an average hitting team at best. It's easier to stand out. How about 1999-2002? And? Yes, and when he was playing, he was protected by the same Carlos who was hitting .240, which pretty much ensured Maggs wouldn't see any pitches. Everything is possible with selective use of stats. You hate Maggs. You love Frank. Whatever. Brandon just answer one question. If 23% & 33% differentials between the #1 & #2 guys on a team don't mean anything than how many wins does that team have if that #1 is replaced with say another guy with only a 2% & 3% differential? If you want look through the A's game logs & see how many types Dye as factored into a win. I don't hate Maggs. I felt the SOX got a bargain in 2002 at 6 mil, & felt they broke even with his production in 2003. So far in 2004 the SOX have gotten the raw end of the deal. I hope he comes back & challenges Frank for league MVP. He's going to get his money from the Mets regardless of what he does so he might as well go out on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 If I'm KW I would try to get Cameron from the Mets. A player doesn't go from 5.17 RPG to 3.87 RPG overnight like that. It's obvious he's struggling at Shea. Even so he's still 4th on the Mets in TB (76) with 22 rbi's. I sure do like his 2001-2003 #'s vs ALC: @ the Cell 1427 OPS @ the Jake 1209 OPS @ the Com 1024 OPS @ the Metro 956 OPS I would argue that trading for a 2-time Gold glove wining CF (2001, 2003) would be more valuable to the White Sox toward a pennant than a 5th starter. Excellent jumps, vast territorial range, & more run saving web gems than just about any other player. No one came close in 2003 to the number of catches Cameron had. If the Mets were willing to throw in some cash I think it's worth to get a gold glove CF on the SOX. He's owed 14.666/2 yrs. If the Mets were to throw in say 3 mil the SOX should do it. Cameron is playing with a broken finger right now. He doesn't want to have surgery until the season is over, but it has altered his swing, and he is clearly in pain at the plate. The broken finger only worsens his struggles at the plate. I would not trade for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Cameron is playing with a broken finger right now. He doesn't want to have surgery until the season is over, but it has altered his swing, and he is clearly in pain at the plate. The broken finger only worsens his struggles at the plate. I would not trade for him. Besides that, the Sox let him go once, why would they bring him back for waaaay more money then they were going to pay him the first time? Granted, he's much better now compared to then, but still... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Brandon just answer one question. If 23% & 33% differentials between the #1 & #2 guys on a team don't mean anything than how many wins does that team have if that #1 is replaced with say another guy with only a 2% & 3% differential? If you want look through the A's game logs & see how many types Dye as factored into a win. I don't hate Maggs. I felt the SOX got a bargain in 2002 at 6 mil, & felt they broke even with his production in 2003. So far in 2004 the SOX have gotten the raw end of the deal. I hope he comes back & challenges Frank for league MVP. He's going to get his money from the Mets regardless of what he does so he might as well go out on top. You're asking the wrong question. Your % comparison method makes little sense. Magglio had his best year when Thomas had a slow bat and couldn't contribute squat in 2002, so there goes your "Maggs is nothing without Thomas" crap. If anything, Dye benefited more from Chavez, Tejada, Giambi, Hattenberg, Durazo, Guillen and Justice more than Maggs did from his teammates. Dye can't hit with RO or RISP like an All-Star run-producer should. He is downright terrible in C&L situations since 2001. He is not very good defensively anymore, either. He is slow on the pads. In short, he and his 12 Mill a year could be EASILY replaced. The problem is...nobody wants him. Beane is stuck with him. Duh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 You're asking the wrong question. Your % comparison method makes little sense. Magglio had his best year when Thomas had a slow bat and couldn't contribute squat in 2002, so there goes your "Maggs is nothing without Thomas" crap. If anything, Dye benefited more from Chavez, Tejada, Giambi, Hattenberg, Durazo, Guillen and Justice more than Maggs did from his teammates. Dye can't hit with RO or RISP like an All-Star run-producer should. He is downright terrible in C&L situations since 2001. He is not very good defensively anymore, either. He is slow on the pads. In short, he and his 12 Mill a year could be EASILY replaced. The problem is...nobody wants him. Beane is stuck with him. Duh. I really think you should look at the A's game logs & read how many times Dye's hits were the difference in a game this year That's the part of this you're not understanding. How much does one player's presence in the lineup make to the team. You argue that Maggs is that #1 player on the SOX. I argue that Frank is. I point to Maggs having an 830 OPS at home in 2001 as evidence. You mention all these intrinsic things about Frank's 2002 year except the raw numbers (77R 28HR 92RBI 88W). Again using RPG as a comparative measure, Maggs performed about 25% better. But in 2003 Frank took the lead again performing about 6% better than Maggs. Now in 2004 Frank is crushing Maggs. RPG stops when a player sits, so Maggs current value is what he earned before the DL. Frank is performing 67% better than Maggs. Maybe Maggs will come off the DL & surprise us all, but I doubt it. Historically it takes hitters quite some time when the come off the DL to get their timing back. It's like ST all over again. Some cheat (Sammy with the cork bat) but I don't think Maggs would ever do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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