Wedge Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 If the argument is over "Which of Frank Thomas or Magglio Ordonez is more important to the White Sox?" then I think everybody has to say that's Frank. Other than that, I dunno about all this Dye, OPS, RSIP, RO, C&L, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 Besides that, the Sox let him go once, why would they bring him back for waaaay more money then they were going to pay him the first time? Granted, he's much better now compared to then, but still... Willie Harris RF 1.94, ZR .816. Horrible! He's not a CFer. :puke In 148 innings, 1 assists, 31 PO. Carlos Lee RF 2.09, ZR .869. In 521 innings, 5 assists, 1 dp, 113 PO. Super-sizing Harris's numbers to Lee's & you get 2 fewer assists, & about 10 fewer POs. That's horrible for a CFer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 I really think you should look at the A's game logs & read how many times Dye's hits were the difference in a game this year That's the part of this you're not understanding. Yeah, nonsense has that effect on me. I've already shown why Magglio is CLEARLY Dye's superior since 2001, in ALL respects. I am not going to repeat myself. Thanks for playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 I've already shown why Magglio is CLEARLY Dye's superior since 2001, in ALL respects. I am not going to repeat myself. Umm .. ok. If that's what you feel the debate was about then sure. You won that debate. Maggs was unequivocally better than Dye in years 2001-2003. Now I might be wrong I think the debate is about how much value Maggs has to the Sox & how much of the payroll should be allocated to him. I'm pretty sure Dye was simply used an example for how much he's currently worth to the A's & how much of the payroll he's eating up. Wrt to moneyball: A's team era: 3.91, SOX 4.36. Zito's era 4.76. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 Willie Harris RF 1.94, ZR .816. Horrible! He's not a CFer. :puke In 148 innings, 1 assists, 31 PO. Carlos Lee RF 2.09, ZR .869. In 521 innings, 5 assists, 1 dp, 113 PO. Super-sizing Harris's numbers to Lee's & you get 2 fewer assists, & about 10 fewer POs. That's horrible for a CFer. wth? I wasn't talking about Harris, I was commenting on bringing back Cameron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 You argue that Maggs is that #1 player on the SOX. I argue that Frank is. Stop lying, my arguement wasn't that Ordonez was more valuable than Thomas, but rather than he was more valuable than Dye and that his "fair market value was worth AT LEAST 11-12 Mill, and not the laughable 7 Mill figure that you pulled out of your ass a few days ago. But since you started....... In 1999, Ordonez was all-around better than Thomas while making a fraction of Hurt's salary. In 2000 Thomas was better, while making MUCH more than Magglio. In 2001, even before injury, Magglio was better than Thomas while making less. In 2002, Magglio was much better while making less still. In 2003, they were about the same (that's right Hurt's 25 OPS point advantage is easily canceled out by Maggs's much higher RISP efficiency and 'Close and Late' production as well as his speed and defense that one-dimensional Thomas simply cannot provide) with Magglio making more. So of course Frank was gonna make no more than 6 Mill. He is old, fat DH type whose bat can permanently slow down at ANY moment. Nobody knew he would be rejuvenated this year. Next year his salary will go up to 8 Mill, he should be happy. You want to pay Maggs no more than 8-9 Mill? Fine, watch what happens once he goes to the Cubs and returns to his old 950 OPS/120 RBI/high Close-n-Late form. Just watch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted June 17, 2004 Share Posted June 17, 2004 wth? I wasn't talking about Harris, I was commenting on bringing back Cameron. kap.. why bother..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 ??? With respect to Dye & Magglio, I've responded to this already so I'm not sure what you are trying to say. http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=20579&st=45# With respect to Maggs vs Frank 2003 I agree with you on your point. The gap betw Frank & Maggs was small enough to where Maggs would have been considered the MVP of the SOX. With respect to Maggs vs Frank 2002, Maggs beat Frank in RPG so it's indisputable. With respect to Maggs vs Frank 2001, Frank was out so there is nothing to compare. With respect to Maggs vs Frank 2000, Frank beat Maggs by 33% in RPG. No contest. Frank has how many MVPs? And Maggs? Frank is how likely to enter the HOF? And Maggs? Frank is how likely to end his career with the SOX? And Maggs? Which is the bigger draw? The SOX-lifer,future HOFer Frank or Maggs? I doubt if there is an ounce of fat on Frank. He still looks like a tight end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 17, 2004 Author Share Posted June 17, 2004 wth? I wasn't talking about Harris, I was commenting on bringing back Cameron. Who would Cameron be replacing in the OF? Doh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapkomet Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Who would Cameron be replacing in the OF? Doh! Again, what the hell are you talking about? Someone mentioned getting Cameron, and I said that the Sox got rid of him once, and why would they go get him back for 3-4 times what they were paying him when they got rid of him. Then you spew more HARRIS stats at me. Taking on more then one argument at once is difficult, trust me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 18, 2004 Author Share Posted June 18, 2004 Again, what the hell are you talking about? Someone mentioned getting Cameron, and I said that the Sox got rid of him once, and why would they go get him back for 3-4 times what they were paying him when they got rid of him. Then you spew more HARRIS stats at me. Taking on more then one argument at once is difficult, trust me... Because they don't have a good defensive option in CF & you can't win a pennant without one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUGGERNAUT Posted June 18, 2004 Author Share Posted June 18, 2004 http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=20657&st=15 Debt to Maggs would be liquid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UofIChiSox Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 I voted for the $14 million, but that should not be 20% of our payroll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 I voted for the $14 million, but that should not be 20% of our payroll I agree. 10% of our payroll would be just about right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Not to anyone in particular, when you say a player is "worth" a percentage of a payroll, does that mean 10% of the Expos, Cubs, and/or Yankees? That would indicate we are no longer looking at total dollars. A "10% guy" would be worth what $4 mil to the Expos, $8.5 mil to the Cubs, and $20 mil to the Yankees. It seems like we are mixing to different things. If a player is deserving of a $40/5 contract, that means the Expos would have to gulp hard make him a starter, and sign the check if the want him, and the Yankmees could have the guy riding the pine. From the player persepective, should he value a $5 mil per year offer from the Expos as better than a $10 mil per year offer from the Yankees because it's a higher percentage of their payroll? I believe the debate should be in two steps. 1. The player is worth X dollars over X years. 2. Should team Y invest that much of their payroll in that player? To start at what percentage is someone worth, look that his current teams payroll, and then determine a dollar amount is crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 They should pay him 17.3267549287107% of the payroll... ...AND NOT ONE PENNY MORE!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 What I was saying, tongue in cheek of course, was they should pay him $14 million, but have that come to 10% of the payroll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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