whitesox61382 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 going to have above average stuff? I am getting sick and tired of pitching prospects with below average stuff. Guys who can't throw over 90, don't have good control, don't have a plus breaking ball, ect. You can add Munoz's name to the list of overrated pitching prospects(Rauch, Diaz, Wright, ect) who are decent enough to take advantage of inconsistant minor leaguers, but don't have the stuff to be a good major league starter. Munoz has a straight fastball in the 86-88 range, a decent curve although he slows his motion to throw it which tips off the hitters, and so-so control. That is not the recipe to be sucessful. I get sick of watching dominating pitching prospects like Prior, Wood, Zambrano, Beckett, Burnett, Penny, Willis, Sheets, Sabathia, Hudson, Zito, Mulder, ect come into the majors and dominate. For once I just wish the Sox could have a dominating pitching prospect with great stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 That is not the recipe to be sucessful. I get sick of watching dominating pitching prospects like Prior, Wood, Zambrano, Beckett, Burnett, Penny, Willis, Sheets, Sabathia, Hudson, Zito, Mulder, ect come into the majors and dominate But...but.....our recent drafts have been most excellent (it's like, didn't you read this board?)......and Coop, our awesome pitching coach extraordinare.....And Ozzie to guide the rookies.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Socks Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Munoz had lnothing. When Cotts or Adkins come in, they at least have some stuff on the ball. Munoz looks like he's fourteen land throws like he is sixty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Can't wait to nuke gets on so we can see that batting tee of his. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSF Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 When is a Sox pitching prospect.... Not going to get completely judged by his 1st start? Yes, 10 runs is horrible and Munoz was throwing BP out there, but it's his 1st damn start for crying out loud. Maybe he just had a bad case of the nerves tonight. IIRC, Wilson Alvarez got shelled in his 1st career start for the Sox. Did they give up on him? No. His 2nd start: A no-hitter. I'm not gonna go on that limb and say that Munoz will do the same, but can we give them a fair shake for a change, instead of this "One and Done" crap. I have faith in Munoz, Diaz, hell even Rauch (though I doubt anyone else does). Someone from that group is gonna step up eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted June 20, 2004 Author Share Posted June 20, 2004 Not going to get completely judged by his 1st start? Yes, 10 runs is horrible and Munoz was throwing BP out there, but it's his 1st damn start for crying out loud. Maybe he just had a bad case of the nerves tonight. IIRC, Wilson Alvarez got shelled in his 1st career start for the Sox. Did they give up on him? No. His 2nd start: A no-hitter. I'm not gonna go on that limb and say that Munoz will do the same, but can we give them a fair shake for a change, instead of this "One and Done" crap. I have faith in Munoz, Diaz, hell even Rauch (though I doubt anyone else does). Someone from that group is gonna step up eventually. I am usually not one to judge a prospect on one start, but you can get a good judge of a pitchers stuff, and Munoz simple doesn't have major league stuff. It is that simple. Sure he isn't quite as bad as this outing would indicate, but he has below average stuff. It is that simple. He has a below average fastball with no movement, he slows his motion when he throws his curve which tips hitters off(he has so-so control of it as well), he doesn't have a plus breaking ball(the Expos are all over his curve), and he has so-so control in general. It doesn't take a pro scout to realize that this guy just doesn't have the goods. Maybe he can be a decent lefty reliever, but he just doesn't have the stuff to be a starter and if you can't see that, than you need to watch a little more baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nokona Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 I like his curve alot. It's just that he couldn't get it over the plate. The 2 Run shot was a ball that shouldn't even have been swung at and Arnie had a few balls rolling around by Uribe that i thought could have been caught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSF Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 I like his curve alot. It's just that he couldn't get it over the plate. The 2 Run shot was a ball that shouldn't even have been swung at and Arnie had a few balls rolling around by Uribe that i thought could have been caught. Not that I'm blaming him, but if Rowand isn't playing so shallow on Vidro's double, it's still a 3-1 game. These type of games happen. It's just a shame it came on this kid's ML debut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted June 20, 2004 Author Share Posted June 20, 2004 I like his curve alot. It's just that he couldn't get it over the plate. The 2 Run shot was a ball that shouldn't even have been swung at and Arnie had a few balls rolling around by Uribe that i thought could have been caught. His curve isn't as good as advertised. The one thing I noticed right away is that he slows his motion to throw his curve, which tips the hitters, and is the main reason why the Expos have been crushing it. He also has no contol of it either. If you like his curve, than you are basing your opinion solely on the hype before the game, because his curve has been awful and has been crushed today. Just because the ball is up doesn't mean that a hitter shouldn't swing at it. Often times a pitch up in the zone(out of the strikezone) is the best pitch to hit, especially if it is a hanging breaking ball or below average fastball, which Munoz is throwing. The fact is that it was a bad pitch in which Munoz missed his location and Rivera crushed it. He also doesn't pitch inside, and when you have below average stuff, than you can't be affective if you don't pitch inside. The balls on the ground have been crushed. The infielders have no time to move in either direction and thats why Uribe hasn't gotten to any of them. They have been line shots. The simple fact is that you are viewing this game with your rosy colored glasses if you have anything positive to say about Munoz's outing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danman31 Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Munoz looks awful guys. Plain and simple. I don't want to completely judge him on one start, but damn this guy has been awful. To be honest Munoz is showing more in this 3rd inning than Rauch ever has (it's called character). Diaz is really the guy to me. He is just one pitch away from being a solid pitcher. He has good control, but throws too many strikes. Don't get me wrong, I want Diaz in AAA getting more time. Cotts was given a total bs chance as a starter. Munoz is just sucking. He could be a reliever, but I don't see him ever being a good starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSF Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 His curve isn't as good as advertised. The one thing I noticed right away is that he slows his motion to throw his curve, which tips the hitters, and is the main reason why the Expos have been crushing it. He also has no contol of it either. If you like his curve, than you are basing your opinion solely on the hype before the game, because his curve has been awful and has been crushed today. Just because the ball is up doesn't mean that a hitter shouldn't swing at it. Often times a pitch up in the zone(out of the strikezone) is the best pitch to hit, especially if it is a hanging breaking ball or below average fastball, which Munoz is throwing. The fact is that it was a bad pitch in which Munoz missed his location and Rivera crushed it. He also doesn't pitch inside, and when you have below average stuff, than you can't be affective if you don't pitch inside. The balls on the ground have been crushed. The infielders have no time to move in either direction and thats why Uribe hasn't gotten to any of them. They have been line shots. The simple fact is that you are viewing this game with your rosy colored glasses if you have anything positive to say about Munoz's outing. And again, you're basing all of this........ off of one start. :headshake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 I love the ever unprofessional DJ saying "suck" on the air. He just did it again and Hawk pretended he didn't hear it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted June 20, 2004 Author Share Posted June 20, 2004 And again, you're basing all of this........ off of one start. :headshake Kid, you are just not getting it. You only need one start to get an accurate judge of a pitchers stuff(whether he throws a perfect game or gets hammered). There are guys that get hammered, but you can see that they have the stuff to be good pitchers, and Munoz just isn't one of those guys. He has below average stuff. It is that simple. He isn't as bad as this start would indicate, but he just doesn't have the stuff to be a good starter in the majors. Please nod your head and say that you understand this simple concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSteve Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 I am pretty happy with Buehrle. How about Garland, I am still happy with him. Wright did win 14 games a few years ago and then pitched injured. This thread is just ignorant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSF Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Kid, you are just not getting it. You only need one start to get an accurate judge of a pitchers stuff(whether he throws a perfect game or gets hammered). There are guys that get hammered, but you can see that they have the stuff to be good pitchers, and Munoz just isn't one of those guys. He has below average stuff. It is that simple. He isn't as bad as this start would indicate, but he just doesn't have the stuff to be a good starter in the majors. Please nod your head and say that you understand this simple concept. No, I will not nod my head in agreement, dope. Yes, his fastball looked to be in the low '80s, his curve didn't have the 12-6 drop, & he was going away, away, away on just about every hitter. But I also realize this was his 1st start, and it would be incredibly stupid to judge him strictly on that. If his next 2 starts mirror this one, that would be different. Maybe I'm not as quick to judge like you are. I still think he can be a good pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Kid, you are just not getting it. You only need one start to get an accurate judge of a pitchers stuff(whether he throws a perfect game or gets hammered). There are guys that get hammered, but you can see that they have the stuff to be good pitchers, and Munoz just isn't one of those guys. He has below average stuff. It is that simple. He isn't as bad as this start would indicate, but he just doesn't have the stuff to be a good starter in the majors. Please nod your head and say that you understand this simple concept. Only an idiot would dispute that today's start was simply pathetic. BUT.... We knew Munoz was 87-90 mph with his fastball, so his lack of ML fastball didn't suprise anyone. We knew he'd have to Barry Zito his way to success - I hope you didn't expect a Billy Wagner, did you? No, he was all about changing speeds, eye level and location with fastball and change - his curveball did the rest. His REAL problem is that he, like so many Sox headcases before him, had TERRIBLE mechanics - release points, follow-through, tipping his pitches....what a f***ing mess. Both his fastball and change-up had to be PINPOINT....and he was missing strike-zone by FEET - Danny Wright was never this wild. So of course once he had to throw a strike, he put it on a T - tipping pitches off on hitter's counts with middle of the plate location? Horrible combo. But his terrible mechanics and control manifested themselves when he had to throw the equalizer curve. His arm speed sucked ass. Usually, once he gets you 0-2, 1-2, he gets you with a change and the pretty much unhittable curveball.........Unfortunately tonight, his curve was more erratic than Rauch's at his worst. He definately has major league stuff - his curve is first class when he gets it going, and he did manage to throw a coupe of change-ups that completely food the hitters. Unfortunately, his motion (and location went to hell along with it) were SO BAD for the most part, that he had NO chance. We'll see how he rebounds. This wasn't Munoz that held AA hitters to .80 WHIP - if he had pitched like he did today in AA, he'd get absolutely crushed, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 your not understanding what he is saying he isnt basing it on how he pitched today he is basing it on how his stuff was today which was horrible.... i say he could be a decent to good reliever but not a starter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSF Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 your not understanding what he is saying he isnt basing it on how he pitched today he is basing it on how his stuff was today which was horrible.... i say he could be a decent to good reliever but not a starter This was his 1st year as a starter. I think he deserves at least one more start before we shuffle him to the pen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSteve Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 This was his 1st year as a starter. I think he deserves at least one more start before we shuffle him to the pen. I can't tell you how much I agree ChiSoxFan. I really can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 i still think grilli deserves a shot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasywheels121 Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 This was his 1st year as a starter. I think he deserves at least one more start before we shuffle him to the pen. I really agree too. I know what we saw wasn't pretty, but now Munoz knows what it's like to be up there on a ML mound. He'll still have the nerves, but I think he'll feel a hell of a lot more comfortable. He'll have a lot more control of what he's doing, if he feels more comfortable. We need to give him another shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 You can't judge anything on a guy's first big league start. Talk about how he pitched tonight, but in the ultimate scheme of things, it means nothing. Too many factors on a first career start. One start doesn't mean s***. I know nothing about this guy, but I'd rather examine all his numbers in the minors and opinions of 5 scouts before I judge a guy on one start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Im sorry but I do not want to send Munoz out for another start... wins are becoming too important for us this year and.. as sad as this is.. Im pretty sure that the 0-8 by the 5th starter is going to cost us the division I hope im wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Can't wait to nuke gets on so we can see that batting tee of his. Me too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted June 20, 2004 Share Posted June 20, 2004 Kid, you are just not getting it. You only need one start to get an accurate judge of a pitchers stuff(whether he throws a perfect game or gets hammered). There are guys that get hammered, but you can see that they have the stuff to be good pitchers, and Munoz just isn't one of those guys. He has below average stuff. It is that simple. He isn't as bad as this start would indicate, but he just doesn't have the stuff to be a good starter in the majors. Please nod your head and say that you understand this simple concept. This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. I'm not a pitcher. Or a pitching coach. But I was sitting at a bar during the first inning, and I knew it was going to be a long night. It has nothing to do with his stuff. You don't need to throw 99 to get guys out. You DO have to be able to locate the plate. Something Munoz has always had some trouble with. Today was different though. Again I'm not a Pitcher, or a pitching coach, but I could see the he was not keeping the ball down. His upper body seemed to be behind the pitches. He wasn't throwing DOWN to the batter. I don't know the specific mechanics of it, but I could see that he wasn't quite right. I'm sure that coop noted and said something. I'm sure Sandy noted and said something. He wasn't in the state of mind where telling him to fix part of his delivery was going to help. Look at what happened to the 1 pitch Cotts got elevated. If you can't keep the ball down, and at the edges of the plate in the major leagues, you're going to get hammered. You've seen him pitch for 3 innings and you're writing him off for good. :headshake Baseball is a game of inches, and if you were as good of a judge of talent as you think you are, you'd have a job in the business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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