BrandoFan Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 Baseball Prospectus has some "Runs Above Replacement" for some CFers' discussed on the board. While I don't agree with all the stats [RF, ZR from STATS, inc. have Biggio about the same as Jones], BP has stats more in line with the naked eye. BP also rated CFers in all defensive categories and had Rowand near the bottom. Basically a below avg CFer, and an average to above avg corner OFer. What most of baseball would agree with. Jones Rowand Beltran Finley 2002 33 16 25 19 2003 32 7 24 11 Rowand may get decent jumps at times. But this can't overcompensate for the speed, reads, arm, quick release and quickness of an Andruw Jones. And getting regular playing time won't add to his defensive abilities. It's hard to quantify which balls an OFer could get to or not. But I've seen Jones, and guys like Beltran and Torri Hunter catch little bloopers and shots in the gap that no Sox OFer seem able to do. Or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 Juan Cruz may be coming in for the Braves right now. Also, the deal with Furcal included is just speculation, but they don't realize the Sox don't have a need for a shortstop. The Sox would only be going for one hitter from the Braves and I could easily see them going for Cruz and Ortiz. That is a move that makes sense. KW has always been comfortable seeing guys he feels his staff can make adjustments to or that he thinks can really turn things around and become a good pitcher. Well, Cruz isn't a diamond in the rough cause he's been hyped, but he's still one of those guys that could turn into a plus reliever or a plus starter. The key is to get him to throw more strikes. He has a nice delivery but seems to be afraid of hitters hitting him and thats probably Coops best trait (getting guys to throw strikes and letting them trust their stuff). But Marte just can't be a part of the deal. He's been coming on strong and him and Shingo is a good 8th/9th inning tandom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 true, why trade a reliever for another reliever when your guy is working fine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 true, why trade a reliever for another reliever when your guy is working fine? I'd guess it just has everything to do with the fact that the Braves see Marte out there and think he could replace Smoltz next year. They probably asked and I can only hope Kenny said hell no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Showtime Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 I'd guess it just has everything to do with the fact that the Braves see Marte out there and think he could replace Smoltz next year. They probably asked and I can only hope Kenny said hell no. There is no way in hell Williams would trade Marte. That's his guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 There is no way in hell Williams would trade Marte. That's his guy. Plus he's signed long term. I'd s*** a brick if he was dealt, not if Maggs was dealt. I have long felt pitching wins games and wins in the playoffs and Marte is exactly what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 Maggs, Borch, and Rauch for Jones, Ortiz, and Cruz good bye Maggs is all I have to say.. That would be a GREAT deal.. Maggs is gone after this year, no matter what you believe, and Jones would be SOLID for a long time.. GG CFer with speed and power and can hit between .270 - .300 its what we have been lookin for, a CFer who can play! Not to mention adding two arms, we win that deal hands down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 Maggs, Borch, and Rauch for Jones, Ortiz, and Cruz good bye Maggs is all I have to say.. That would be a GREAT deal.. Maggs is gone after this year, no matter what you believe, and Jones would be SOLID for a long time.. GG CFer with speed and power and can hit between .270 - .300 its what we have been lookin for, a CFer who can play! Not to mention adding two arms, we win that deal hands down And the Sox still have Reed to slie into right field next year. I'd do that deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 I really don't like the idea of giving up Borch...but if we had to trade one of the stud OF's, it'd be him. Can't we just throw in Mike Jackson?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Showtime Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 Like I told Jason on AIM yesterday, any trade involving Magglio does not include the big 4 outfielders. Atleast in my small world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 I really don't like the idea of giving up Borch...but if we had to trade one of the stud OF's, it'd be him. Can't we just throw in Mike Jackson?? Well with Jones and Lee in the Of signed, you could make a point that you'd only need one of Reed or Borchard. It all depends on what gets the deal done and who the Sox like more. The Sox have a lot of power already and Reed definately would fit in nice amongst the power bats. Plus I firmly believe Reed will have at least a few seasons where he hits 20 HR's and he will hit for a high average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 Like I told Jason on AIM yesterday, any trade involving Magglio does not include the big 5 outfielders. Atleast in my small world. I'd agree typically, but if they get Juan Cruz, I'd open up one of Borchard/Reed. I think Anderson is pretty much untouchable while Sweeney's value isn't as high as it will eventually be. Plus I really like Sweeney. Out of all of them, I'd probably deal Borchard because he's shown he has injury problems and I think in the end those injuries may prevent him from ever putting it together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 You'd think JR would be hesitant to have anything involving JB with the $$ he has invested in him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 Like I told Jason on AIM yesterday, any trade involving Magglio does not include the big 5 outfielders. Atleast in my small world. big 5 outfielders? Who's the fifth? Nanita or Young? IMO, we dont have a 5th OF that measures up to Sweeney, Borch, Reed, Anderson. Also, if we were to trade Marte that would the stupidest move by KW ever. Our bullpen has been horrid and Marte has been one of just 2 solid spots there. Moving him would be insane. Also, personally, i dont know if i'd do that Maggs trade. Jones is good and we probably wont have Maggs next year anyways, but couldnt we get more for him if KW was actually gonna trade him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 You'd think JR would be hesitant to have anything involving JB with the $$ he has invested in him. Its a sunk cost, so I don't really think that money matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Showtime Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 big 5 outfielders? Who's the fifth? Nanita or Young? IMO, we dont have a 5th OF that measures up to Sweeney, Borch, Reed, Anderson. Also, if we were to trade Marte that would the stupidest move by KW ever. Our bullpen has been horrid and Marte has been one of just 2 solid spots there. Moving him would be insane. Also, personally, i dont know if i'd do that Maggs trade. Jones is good and we probably wont have Maggs next year anyways, but couldnt we get more for him if KW was actually gonna trade him? I meant 4, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 big 5 outfielders? Who's the fifth? Nanita or Young? IMO, we dont have a 5th OF that measures up to Sweeney, Borch, Reed, Anderson. Also, if we were to trade Marte that would the stupidest move by KW ever. Our bullpen has been horrid and Marte has been one of just 2 solid spots there. Moving him would be insane. Also, personally, i dont know if i'd do that Maggs trade. Jones is good and we probably wont have Maggs next year anyways, but couldnt we get more for him if KW was actually gonna trade him? I'd say Chris Young is rawer then any of the players listed, but has the potential of any of them and is probably the lone one that could play very good defense in center field. I don't consider Nanita a part of that, however you could argue that brice is a pretty good OF prospect, although I don't put him quite in that class. Brice has the best outfield arm in the organization though, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 I meant 4, sorry. oh, ok. After W-S i havent paid a ton of attention to the other 3 teams so i didnt know if some of you guys thought the same of some other OF down there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 #5 is Bikowski, dammit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Showtime Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 I'd agree typically, but if they get Juan Cruz, I'd open up one of Borchard/Reed. I think Anderson is pretty much untouchable while Sweeney's value isn't as high as it will eventually be. Plus I really like Sweeney. I'm not against moving Borchard, but not in the same deal as Magglio. If they can land Ortiz and Jones, then turn Borchard and a pitching prospect into another starter that would be ideal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 I'm not against moving Borchard, but not in the same deal as Magglio. If they can land Ortiz and Jones, then turn Borchard and a pitching prospect into another starter that would be ideal. After getting Ortiz, wouldn't the bullpen be the next area of weakness. I still think the Sox need to get one more really good reliever. If you can get that to go with Shingo and Marte then I'd really be happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 but couldnt we get more for him if KW was actually gonna trade him? more then a really good young pitcher with a carrer record of 95-47 and a 6 time gold glove outfielder that hits pretty damn good... more then that, for a rent-a-player... thats askin a lot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Showtime Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 After getting Ortiz, wouldn't the bullpen be the next area of weakness. I still think the Sox need to get one more really good reliever. If you can get that to go with Shingo and Takatsu then I'd really be happy. Have we cloned Shingo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 LMAO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 After a night sleeping on it, I'm now split on this deal. The more I thought about it, the more I realized Ortiz is not the answer we need pitching wise, but KW will most likely make the move thinking he is. Ortiz is not the answer to all our SP problems...he may just add to them. He's an innings eater. I like Jones in CF. But I did remember hearing last year that his range was starting to decline a little. And his numbers this year are nothing to write home about. And if we acquire Jones...where do we put the LH bat? Do we bench Rowand again? Is Konerko or Lee apart of a trade? I am not sure. I would love the Cruz addition a lot. Last year, Josh Beckett had an electric arm, but was clueless when it came to actually pitching. Come postseason-time, he just finally started to pitch, and he figured s*** out. He is now one of the better young pitchers in the league and is money. Cruz is a headcase, and having all the pressure on him, knowing that a team's hopes of advancing in the playoffs rides on him could make him or break him. Some people rise to the opportunity, some do not. It would definately be interesting to see. Losing Maggs would hurt like hell. He has probably been our best hitter(note, not best at the plate...Thomas was best at the plate last year IMO, as far as being dangerous to get on base) for 3 years now. It would definately be hard to give him up. Personally, I'd like to keep both Rauch and Diaz. We all know that's not gonna happen. We need to keep atleast one of them, IMO. Let me just say this. I am not opposed to the deal, but I am not for the deal. There will be all kinds of good and bad things that arise out of it. If the good things outweigh the bad things, then the deal should be made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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