Official Ortiz/Jones ATL Rumors Thread

[CWSOX45]

Here are Cruz's numbers:

 

IP H ER HR BB K ERA WHIP AVG

31 33 13 2 15 31 3.77 1.55 .273

 

Not too shabby. However he's no Marte, but has a ton of potential.

 

CWSOX45

[Mr. Showtime]

I just wanted to say that I'm proud of everyone for posting all the latest buzz in this thread, I was afraid of like 20 different new thread updating us all the time.

[Chisoxfn]

Marte?  f*** no.

 

Juan Cruz?  f*** yeah.    That kind of arm doesn't come along very often. I've seen him hit 96-98 while on the Cubs and his change made people look pathetic.  Of course he is the MOTHER of all reclamation projects.  Sincde he is still young and cheap, Sox would be KRAZY not to take a chance on him - as long as we don't give up anybody of worth for him.

 

Then again, if Braves pitching coach couldn't "fix" Cruz, Sox have little chance. I still will take him as a throw-in, no doubt in my mind.

Here is the question, would you move Cotts for him. I think if Cotts is in the deal the Sox can get Cruz. Personally I jump all over it. I love Cotts (probably one of his bigger backers on this board) but Cruz has been very good out of the pen, is still young, and has the stuff to be a freaking frontline stud if he's ever given the chance again.

 

I also think Coops aproach is very good with young starters. He says trust your stuff and throw strikes. Cruz has basically been doing that in Atlanta this year.

 

Would you guys do a Maggs/Cotts for Cruz/Ortiz/Jones deal. Who knows if the Braves do it, but maybe you still have to throw in Rauch. Then the Sox can go out and look for a lefty reliever or try the Wunsch experiment again. They also could decide they've seen enough out of Darensbourg to say they like him or of course dangle another prospect to add another reliever.

 

I do agree, no Marte, unless of course the Sox plan on adding Smoltz or Mota or Krod and I don't see that happening. I love Marte to death. You make the pen with Marte/Shingo/Cruz and now its even better, imo.

[hi8is]

I'm really freaking intrigued right now, cause I think the Sox have a serious potential to really improve their ball club.

me too, if im KW, i say go to the braves and tell them that you want Jones, Ortiz, Cruz, and cash and you will give them Maggs, Diaz or Rauch, and Stewart... if they say no, replace stewart with cotts

[CWSOX45]

Here is the question, would you move Cotts for him.  I think if Cotts is in the deal the Sox can get Cruz. 

I'd do it. That's a pretty nice looking deal right there. Levine said the other day that the deal would consist of 6 to 7 players before it was done.

 

CWSOX45

[Chisoxfn]

Ok, I'm going to throw something out of left field. Lets suppose the Sox can land Jones/Ortiz/Cruz with a combination of minor league pitchers/hitters and Neal Cotts.

 

Would you then deal Maggs to Arizona for Randy Johnson...would they make that deal or would the Giants give you Jason Schmidt for Maggs (protection for Bonds) or would the Dodgers give you Odalis Perez and a boatload of prospects for him.

 

Im just curious as to what ACE pitcher the Sox could get for Maggs and if fans would be for it. I've written off to the fact that Maggs is gone and getting Jones/Ortiz/Cruz is a great return if you ask me and it makes the club better now and next year.

[BrandoFan]

You can get Larry Walker right now for 10 baseballs and a pitcher who is willing to throw 100 innings in coors field and get lit up.

 

SB

Larry Walker is an intriguing idea - it all depends how his batspeed is because with his less-than-great mechanics and a long swing path, his effectiveness will TANK if he succumbs to age-related loss of quickness.

 

I guess the reason why I want Drew is that he is 3 times cheaper than L-Walk, is much younger, can actually play CF if need be (hopefully not if Konerko is traded and Lee is moved to 1B/DH) and run bases.

[greasywheels121]

I'd like to see what Jones could do in our park as opposed to Turner Field. I'm sure he'd see some good pitches with Frank in front of or behind him.

 

Magglio would have Chipper with him in the batting order,  that would be mighty interesting.

That very Chipper Jones that's hitting an astounding .210 on the year.

[Chisoxfn]

me too, if im KW, i say go to the braves and tell them that you want Jones, Ortiz, Cruz, and cash and you will give them Maggs, Diaz or Rauch, and Stewart... if they say no, replace stewart with cotts

Sounds good to me. I do think if you put Cotts in then you should get a least some cash considerations.

[hi8is]

funny chisoxfan... we basicly said the same thing at the same time, great minds think a like

[Chisoxfn]

funny chisoxfan... we basicly said the same thing at the same time, great minds think a like

Now Hopefully Kw is thinking alike too

[hi8is]

Now Hopefully Kw is thinking alike too 

[hi8is]

damn, look at Ortiz's last start:

Ortiz (W, 7-6) 7.0 7 0 0 2 4 0 3.87

 

2 walks! brought his era back down to below 4

 

pull the freakin trigger KW.... get a nice CF, good SP, and some bullpen help all in one swoop! DOOO IT

[BrandoFan]

Here is the question, would you move Cotts for him.

No.

 

Cruz is having a mediocre year in Atlanta's pen and he bombed as a Cub.

 

He is not THAT young.

 

Give them couple of scrubs.

[winninguglyin83]

sez the Maggs trade talk to the Braves was not denied by Kenny Kool during a radio sement.

 

Sez the Sox have a scout in Baltimore to scout the Braves -- specifically Ortiz and Andruw Jones. Says Juan Cruz could also be part of the deal.

 

My sense is KW has watched his team average nearly 6 runs per game without Maggio, but lose.

 

That tells him they can sacrifice the bat because pitching is what they need. Guess they would play Jones in center, A Row in right and move Ortiz right into the rotation.

 

I just wonder if the Braves would do this without any promise Maggs will sign with them.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Chisoxfn]

sez the Maggs trade talk to the Braves was not denied by Kenny Kool during a radio sement.

 

Sez the Sox have a scout in Baltimore to scout the Braves -- specifically Ortiz and Andruw Jones. Says Juan Cruz could also be part of the deal.

 

My sense is KW has watched his team average nearly 6 runs per game without Maggio, but lose.

 

That tells him they can sacrifice the bat because pitching is what they need. Guess they would play Jones in center, A Row in right and move Ortiz right into the rotation.

 

I just wonder if the Braves would do this without any promise Maggs will sign with them.

 

Just my thoughts.

Just want to say I merged your thread in with this one since its about the whole Braves trade

 

This way its easy to follow all of the updates on the rumors.

[Chisoxfn]

Well, the Braves pregame also talked about the deal so its now been reported from both sides. They said Braves reps had acknowledged the possibility.

 

The only thing that scares me in this deal is the talk of Marte's name coming up. Otherwise, I'd do Borch/Rauch/Maggs for Jones/Cruz/Ortiz.

 

Ortiz moves into the rotation, Cruz either moves to the rotation (or Diaz stays there until Scho comes off the DL) and then once things are settled you slide either Diaz or Cruz into the pen for Mike Jackson. The pen gets a little stronger in this deal, the rotation is quite a bit stronger, and offensively we lose minimal and defensively this team is a hell of a lot better.

[YASNY]

Well, the Braves pregame also talked about the deal so its now been reported from both sides.  They said Braves reps had acknowledged the possibility. 

 

The only thing that scares me in this deal is the talk of Marte's name coming up.  Otherwise, I'd do Borch/Rauch/Maggs for Jones/Cruz/Ortiz.

 

Ortiz moves into the rotation, Cruz either moves to the rotation (or Diaz stays there until Scho comes off the DL) and then once things are settled you slide either Diaz or Cruz into the pen for Mike Jackson.  The pen gets a little stronger in this deal, the rotation is quite a bit stronger, and offensively we lose minimal and defensively this team is a hell of a lot better.

Ya, for sure. Losing Marte would hurt. We're just gonna have to see what the final deal actually is, and make our judgements from there.

[greasywheels121]

If we lose Marte; I don't care how this deal ends up. That's just ridiculous. We really only have two guys in our bullpen that we know are truly dependable. Marte's one of them; he doesn't cost much and he's locked up for a few years.

[winninguglyin83]

i'm not for including Marte at all.

 

Shingo is good -- but I want to see him succeed the second time around against most of these teams.

 

Marte is fairly cheap and we have him for a few more years.

 

He can close and he can pitch multiple innings.

 

He is too valuable to trade.

[hi8is]

this is funny, found it on a braves message board:

 

"What do you guys think about this one....

White Sox get: Andruw, Ortiz, and Furcal

 

Braves get: Maggs, and Konerko"

 

 

hahaha go to hell and back and that deal still wont happen, buddy! =D

[BrandoFan]

Would you then deal Maggs to Arizona for Randy Johnson...would they make that deal or would the Giants give you Jason Schmidt for Maggs (protection for Bonds) or would the Dodgers give you Odalis Perez and a boatload of prospects for him.

Randy Johnson puts fans in seats and makes them tune in TV. Maggs doesn't.

D-Backs will want to shed salary but why would they take on Maggs's 14 Mill when Danny Batista is having almost as good a season as Maggs? If Arizona trades Unit to a contending team that needs an ace, it would be for PROSPECTS.

 

Giving up Jason Shmidt? San Fran is making a HUGE push for the playoffs, and once in the playoffs, Jason Schmidt becomes a big asset: he can pitch in Game 1 and 4 of NLDS and Game 1, 4 and 7 of NLCS. He is worth his weight in diamond-encrusted platinum. San Fran will get some line-up protection for Bonds alright, but it WON'T be 14-Mill-a-year Maggs. I bet they are looking at JD Drew, Finley and others as we speak - and they wouldn't have to give up Schmidt for them, either.

 

I don't know about Perez - and I liked him a LOT before this season. Maggs was on pace to 140 RBI (and that considering he usually heats up during the summer, so he might have broken out for 150 RBI) before the collision in Cleveland in May. Who knows if he kicks his production up a notch playing for a contract.

 

Unless that prospect is Edwin Jackson.......

[YASNY]

If we lose Marte; I don't care how this deal ends up.  That's just ridiculous.  We really only have two guys in our bullpen that we know are truly dependable.  Marte's one of them; he doesn't cost much and he's locked up for a few years.

It all depends on what other irons KW has in the fire.

[hi8is]

funny, wgn just showed loiza strike out jones =D

[beck72]

I think you're still stuck in pre-2003 era.

 

In the last 2 seasons, Andruw has lost a step in quickness and is no longer busting his ass out there 100%.      Both factors (health and effort) have lowered his CF skills from "great" to merely "very good".

 

I think you're underestimating Rowand's defense.    He is now officially as fast as Jones and he's got more hustle.  His arm is every bit as good.    True, even now Jones gets better jumps than Rowand, but Aaron is hardly ever allowed to get in any sort of rhythm - he's been benched so much in 2002-2004.      If he plays every day, you'll only see a slight defensive downgrade going from Jones to Rowand - not nearly as big as if you were to make this switch in, say, 2000.

Baseball Prospectus has some "Runs Above Replacement" for some CFers' discussed on the board. While I don't agree with all the stats [RF, ZR from STATS, inc. have Biggio about the same as Jones], BP has stats more in line with the naked eye. BP also rated CFers in all defensive categories and had Rowand near the bottom. Basically a below avg CFer, and an average to above avg corner OFer. What most of baseball would agree with.

 

Jones Rowand Beltran Finley

2002 33 16 25 19

2003 32 7 24 11

 

Rowand may get decent jumps at times. But this can't overcompensate for the speed, reads, arm, quick release and quickness of an Andruw Jones. And getting regular playing time won't add to his defensive abilities.

 

It's hard to quantify which balls an OFer could get to or not. But I've seen Jones, and guys like Beltran and Torri Hunter catch little bloopers and shots in the gap that no Sox OFer seem able to do.