DBAHO Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 From the Sun - Times, With the Los Angeles Dodgers and New York Yankees the leaders in the sweepstakes to land Seattle Mariners pitcher Freddy Garcia, the Sox have turned their attention toward a recent 20-game winner. A fast-spreading rumor has the Sox close to a deal with the Atlanta Braves for right-hander Russ Ortiz. They also are interested in Mariners veteran left-hander Jamie Moyer, although Ortiz is preferred. Braves scout Jim Fregosi has been a regular at U.S. Cellular Field the past week. General manager Ken Williams elected to not respond to all the talk. ''I'd rather not discuss anything with regards to the trade market or potential guys we're looking at,'' Williams said. ''I don't think it's fair to the players we have in uniform that are fighting every day to get us back to first place.'' The Sox would send a package of young players to the Braves. It is expected to include right-hander Jon Rauch, who angered Sox management last month when he left the park early after a rough outing against the Anaheim Angels. Rauch's outing Thursday against the Cleveland Indians, when he allowed one run in five innings, was said to be a showcase start so the Braves could see him operate at the major-league level. The Sox' package of players also is expected to include either of the organization's highly-touted Class-A outfielders, Brian Anderson or Ryan Sweeney. Ortiz, who is making $6.2 million this season, won 21 games for the Braves last season and was a National League All-Star. He spent his first five seasons with the San Francisco Giants. He is 6-6 with a 4.18 ERA this season. The timing of a deal certainly fits the Sox' style. It was a year ago this Thursday when the Sox acquired Carl Everett and Roberto Alomar only to fall out of the division lead with two weeks remaining in the season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 Sweeney or Anderson + Rauch for Ortiz? I think this deal has Todd Ritchie written all over it. If you are going to trade one of the stud OFs, you better get a guy who throws strkes. I think its very possible Rauch outperforms Ortiz the rest of the season. I would suppose if the Sox paid this ransom, Ortiz's salary would be picked up by Atlanta. 4.18 ERA's in the NL, get close to 5.00 in the AL and maybe even higher in the bandbox also know as USCF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 Sweeney or Anderson + Rauch for Ortiz? I think this deal has Todd Ritchie written all over it. If you are going to trade one of the stud OFs, you better get a guy who throws strkes. I think its very possible Rauch outperforms Ortiz the rest of the season. I would suppose if the Sox paid this ransom, Ortiz's salary would be picked up by Atlanta. 4.18 ERA's in the NL, get close to 5.00 in the AL and maybe even higher in the bandbox also know as USCF. Rauch outperforms Ortiz?! What kind of intoxicants are you consuming? Last time I looked, Russ Ortiz was a 20 game winner, potential Cy Yong winner and an all star, while on the other hand, Rausch was (is) a 6'11" bust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 Rauch outperforms Ortiz?! What kind of intoxicants are you consuming? Last time I looked, Russ Ortiz was a 20 game winner, potential Cy Yong winner and an all star, while on the other hand, Rausch was (is) a 6'11" bust. I think you need to take a reading comprehension course. Ortiz is 6-6 this year with a 4.18 ERA in a pitcher's park. He has thrown ALOT of pitches the last few seasons, in fact, I believe he had a little arm trouble earlier this season. While chances are he outperforms Rauch for the rest of the year, there is better than a slight chance he does not. To give away a guy like Rauch who is $6 million cheaper, and either Anderson or Sweeney is an awfully big gamble. I also believe that Ortiz is signed just for this season. So he'd basically be a 17 start rental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 The Sox NEED pitching help! Nobody is going to give away pitching for nothing. I'd love to think we could get Freddie Garcia or Russ Ortiz by offerring Mike Jackson or Cliff Pollitte, but, in the real world, that isn't gonna happen. Except for the last start, Rausch has shown absolutely nothing...if we have to trade him, who cares? Same with Borchard. If they go on to other teams and become stars, good luck to them. We need to "replace" our 4th AND 5th starter spots, AND everyone in the Pen except for Shingo, Cotts, Wunsch (when healthy) and Marte. We have Anderson, Sweeney, Borchard and Reed in our system, this isn't softball, we cant use 4 outfielders, especially when we have Lee, Rowand, and hopefully Ordonez, (that makes 6-7). So, someone has to go. I don't know about you, but, I don't want to wait through another rebuilding era. I want to go for it NOW! Howver, IF we blow the series with the Cubs (which is very probable now that Felix Diaz is starting vs Zambrano) and then the following series vs the Twins, we may have to "blow up" the team. If we fall 7+ games out by the all star break, we are done! Then we can become "sellers" instead of "buyers". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 With the Los Angeles Dodgers and New York Yankees the leaders in the sweepstakes to land Seattle Mariners pitcher Freddy Garcia, the Sox have turned their attention toward a recent 20-game winner. I don’t like what they're saying at all. I really want Freddy Garcia in a White Sox uniform before July 31. This guy can really help the team out. And with the offense helping him out, I’m sure the Sox will win a lot of games with him around. But if KW does get Ortiz, I will have no problem, I just rather have Garcia any day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiseAgainst07 Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 you guys are missing the main person, its moyer, he has a better ERA, and a more innings. He would be the lowest SP ERA we have on the team if we get him, and he played for the struggling mariners. I would take him in a heartbeat over the rent-a-player ortiz. hehe, hitting things if fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbaho-WG Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 I'd take Moyer over Ortiz in a heartbeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Beast Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 Anderson+Rauch for Ortiz or Moyer I'll do. I want to keep Sweeney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Showtime Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 I gotta laugh. Everyone is screaming for a trade and now we're on the verge of making one, and folks don't want to pay the price. It would be great if we could trade Diaz or Munoz for Ortiz-Garcia-Moyer, but nobody wants them. These teams want good players in return, they got some nerve asking for our good players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 If the Sox had a gun to their heads and were told "you either need to trade Anderson or Sweeney", my guess is Sweeney is traded. They obviously don't want to give up either of these kids. Anderson, though, is a legit CF solution long-term. Sweeney is a stud too but is a RF, and let's face it, RF is an easier position to fill. As for me, if my choice is let's say Sweeney or Borchard ... I would trade Borchard. Not that I don't like him, it's just that Sweeney has a huge upside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 I gotta laugh. Everyone is screaming for a trade and now we're on the verge of making one, and folks don't want to pay the price. It would be great if we could trade Diaz or Munoz for Ortiz-Garcia-Moyer, but nobody wants them. These teams want good players in return, they got some nerve asking for our good players. I don't mind giving up prospects to get someone who will perform, but Ortiz is a .500 pitcher so far this year, the same as the big "bust" Rauch. Why give up 2 assets like Rauch, who has been lights out at AAA, and was very good against a good hitting Cleveland team, and a guy like Sweeney who excites Roland Hemond as much as a young Harold Baines for mediocrity. Maybe Rauch's "incident" woke him up, and changed his attitude. On top of that, Ortiz would only be here half a season, walks a ton of guys, and would get hurt by the DH. His harmless NL walks would lead to runs in the AL. I'd rather have Moyer. Gil Meche I don't want. It was reported in Seattle that the Mariners offered Meche straight up for Brandon Inge, and were rebuffed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 no f***ing way.... If we give the Braves Rauch and Sweeney or Anderson I am going to boycott the rest of this season... If your going to give away a TOP prospect and a major league ready pitcher who just threw 5 ip with ONE run for RUSS ORTIZ your insane.. For god sakes if your going to give away that much get Freddy Garcia or Ben Sheets even if you have to wait a while to get them... This is definatly panic mode for the Sox.. I swear, if they do that deal, im going to put my attention to the Astros.. Dont get me wrong, I will always love the Sox.. but that deal will not only give away two peices of the future puzzle.. it is giving us a .500 pitcher who is struggling in the NL in a pitchers park... get the f*** outta here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 I'd much rather trade Reed or Borchard than those other two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 I'd take Moyer over Ortiz in a heartbeat. Me too. He provides a veteran leadership, knows how to pitch, and is a top of the line starter. Plus, has playoff experience (even though Ortiz does too but has control problems.) Moyer > Ortiz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 Isn't Moyer 50 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 my thoughts: DONT DO IT. MOYER IS TOO OLD AND ORTIZ JUS SUCKS. SWEENY AND ADERSON ROCK AND RAUCH MAY ACTUALLY COME AROUND. PLEASE NO!!! ok i'm done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 Isn't Moyer 50 ? Isn't Moyer still pitching well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 I have to agree with everyone in this thread(except Mr Showtime and israel). I am usually a big fan of trading prospects for proven major leaguers, but this deal has mistake written all over it. When will you guys(a few not all) learn that wins and loses are a terrible tool to meassure a pitcher by? Sure in the end that is the only thing that counts, but wins and loses are determined by a team and a starting pitcher is just a small part of that team. You could have put Clemens, RJohnson, Maddux, and any other of the most winningest pitchers over the past decade plus, on last years Tigers team and they would have probably lost 15 games. Does that make them bad pitchers? Conversely, you could put any so-so pitcher on a team like the Yankees and they would probably win 15 games. Does that make them good pitchers? The point is that wins are a terrible tool to measure pitchers by, and just because Ortiz won 21 games last year doesn't make him a great pitcher. The fact is that he a 4.00 ERA pitcher in a pitchers park in the NL. That translates to an ERA of about 4.50 in a place like Chicago. Factor in his salary and the fact that he is a rent-a-player, and there is no reason to give up top prospects for him. Look at the Braves message board and you will see that the majority of them are begging that the Sox take Ortiz off their hands(almost as bad as Sox fans and Koch) and are saying that they would trade him for a bag of balls in return. Ortiz doesn't have much trade value. As someone else pointed out, there is a possibility that Rauch could outpitch Ortiz over the rest of the season. I would offer them Rauch and maybe a marginal prospects like Spidale for Ortiz. If they don't like it, than fine. There is no reason to morgage the future for a player that will only bring marigal gains. I would much rather trade Borchard or Reed instead of Anderson or Sweeney. This rumor better not be true or else KW will be run out of town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasywheels121 Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 my thoughts: DONT DO IT. MOYER IS TOO OLD AND ORTIZ JUS SUCKS. SWEENY AND ADERSON ROCK AND RAUCH MAY ACTUALLY COME AROUND. PLEASE NO!!! ok i'm done. So you think we're going to do big things with the club we have now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 no, if you'd look at my post on the other tread i just think KW is going the wrong way. Look younger, and look at Garcia. There are plenty of decent pitchers on the market, and i think it wouldnt be too hard to out bid the yankees what with their amazing farm system. I just agree that this is too risky a trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasywheels121 Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 no, if you'd look at my post on the other tread i just think KW is going the wrong way. Look younger, and look at Garcia. There are plenty of decent pitchers on the market, and i think it wouldnt be too hard to out bid the yankees what with their amazing farm system. I just agree that this is too risky a trade. Garcia has numbers right now, but like it's been posted. He's a fly ball pitcher in a pitcher's park, and we know USCF is the farthest thing from a pitcher's park. Also, we'd be in a bidding war with the Yanks and Dodgers. I have a hard time seeing we win that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 Garcia has numbers right now, but like it's been posted. He's a fly ball pitcher in a pitcher's park, and we know USCF is the farthest thing from a pitcher's park. Also, we'd be in a bidding war with the Yanks and Dodgers. I have a hard time seeing we win that one. dude, the yanks have ZERO farm system, we do. I dunno, i think KW could do it if he tried. Are you saying the Ortiz, mister career 4 ERA, will help better than Garcia?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasywheels121 Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 I never said Ortiz was better, but I don't see Garcia being the guy. We don't need a fly ball pitcher here. That's why I say we go after Moyer. However, this is a problem with the team. I want some starting pitching, regardless of what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted June 26, 2004 Share Posted June 26, 2004 I never said Ortiz was better, but I don't see Garcia being the guy. We don't need a fly ball pitcher here. That's why I say we go after Moyer. However, this is a problem with the team. I want some starting pitching, regardless of what it is. i definitely dont want to give up young talent for a 41 year old who's one injury away from retiring, and frankly he'll prolly retire next year anyway regardles........... (totally speculation) but bottom line is young talent should not be given up for a 41 year old pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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