cwsox Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 I wonder if the age of the poster makes a difference here. Those of us who have been around a while have seen so many "this guy will be the greatest pitcher ever" phenoms come and go. Once you have seen the novas like Prior burn out more than a few times (can anyonce say Burt Hooten?) you don't get so excited anymore about one more phenom like so many other phenoms. Meanwhile, proven consistency and improvement are very attractive to the fan with the perspective of years because you have seen the difference between phenoms and the real deal. (Can anyone say Kerry Wood?) MB is the real deal. He has improved every year and his numbers get better every year. Jesus the Cy Young Savior Prior is just another phenom. Maybe he will pan out, maybe not. I don't think he will be what some are claiming. He may be a 13-16 win pitcher every year, or a 500 pitcher. Seen a lot like him. Maybe he is everything that is claimed. But having heard these claims so many times for so many others, excuse me for staying seated. MB is the real deal. I take that over a phenom any time, any day, any place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 I wonder if the age of the poster makes a difference here. Those of us who have been around a while have seen so many "this guy will be the greatest pitcher ever" phenoms come and go. Once you have seen the novas like Prior burn out more than a few times (can anyonce say Burt Hooten?) you don't get so excited anymore about one more phenom like so many other phenoms. Meanwhile, proven consistency and improvement are very attractive to the fan with the perspective of years because you have seen the difference between phenoms and the real deal. (Can anyone say Kerry Wood?) MB is the real deal. He has improved every year and his numbers get better every year. Jesus the Cy Young Savior Prior is just another phenom. Maybe he will pan out, maybe not. I don't think he will be what some are claiming. He may be a 13-16 win pitcher every year, or a 500 pitcher. Seen a lot like him. Maybe he is everything that is claimed. But having heard these claims so many times for so many others, excuse me for staying seated. MB is the real deal. I take that over a phenom any time, any day, any place. See, i don't know how sure you could be that Buehrle is the "real deal". After all, he's had two good years....two. While i personally don't see him flaming out, it could easily happen, especially considering his very worrying strikeout to walk ratio. I'm not saying strikeouts are the most important thing about a pitcher, but we all know it's a very good tool to predict future success. In which case, Prior should do very well. And though i'm not all that old, i think i can pretty much assess where Prior fits in the realm of hyped pitchers over the years...he's pretty damn high up there. Even if he was a complete bust, he could be a .500 pitcher, which isn't bad. But i just don't see it. If last year is any indication, he's gonna be a phenom, and i'm not worried about the chance of him getting injured because of his flawless mechanics. I'm not arguing that Buehrle hasn't proven more than Prior...i even think he'll be better than Prior this year...but as for their careers, i see Prior coming out on top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 "flawless mechanics" is a phrase often used for phenoms. It takes very little for flawless mechanics to become flawed. That is when a pitcher has to be able to really pitch. There are just so variables. In the three seasons that I have watched MB I see a guy who knows how to pitch and win, how to make the adjustments on a game by game basis. As I said, maybe Prior will do it, or maybe not. The idea as suggested that the Cy Young should one day be renamed the Mark Prior had to be one the sillier things ever said. Prior fans should hope he can one day be a Kenny Holtzman first. He has to do better than last year's 6-6. The bragging on Prior has just been a wee tad bit overdone. Always, always be looking for who is coming along. Never crown the new Messiah until the honor is earned. There have been so many false Messiah's - I've seen too many and heard all the claims before. Time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 This guy could be Clemens/Nolan Ryan or BETTER. For their careers.... Nolan Ryan -- 3.19 ERA, 324 Wins, 5714 Strikeouts (a record that will NEVER be broken), and 7 no-hitters Roger Clemens -- 3.15 ERA, 293 Wins (and only 151 Losses), 3909 Strikeouts, and 6 Cy Young Awards Mark Prior BETTER than these 2? Don't count on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Potential doesn't mount up to a hill of beans. When/If Jesus Prior wins 35 or more games over a spanof two seasons, then we could have this debate. Till then..... I'll take the soft tosser All-Star over the hard throwing unproven commodity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 (can anyonce say Burt Hooten?) Or how about Brien Taylor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Jon Snyder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 CWSOX , Who was your comment about age of poster about on this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Just kind of a general comment and meant nothing by it that was negative at all. It just seeme to me that the younger posters in general are more excited about Prior and the older posters in general have a wait and see and we're happy with MB attitude. I was prone to be much more enthusiastic about guys coming up when I was the age of those phenoms - now that I am old enough to be their father, I am more laid back about it all. If my in general comment is a problem for anyone, I will take it back, I did not mean that in an unkind way at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 If my in general comment is a problem for anyone, I will take it back, I did not mean that in an unkind way at all. Stand by your words! You're right. Baseball fans in their 40's are much more level-headed. They've seen the Ryans, Seavers, Carltons, etc in their prime. Whereas the fans in their 20's don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Also saw Jim Nash... Mark Fidrych... and a host of other can't miss gonna-be-a-great one/two season wonders... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Just kind of a general comment and meant nothing by it that was negative at all. It just seeme to me that the younger posters in general are more excited about Prior and the older posters in general have a wait and see and we're happy with MB attitude. I was prone to be much more enthusiastic about guys coming up when I was the age of those phenoms - now that I am old enough to be their father, I am more laid back about it all. If my in general comment is a problem for anyone, I will take it back, I did not mean that in an unkind way at all. Let me second that. cwsox and I are roughly the same age and we have seen many a phenom come and go. I was starting to compile a list of cub phenoms in my lifetime that were busts. The list got so long I said the hell with it. Some of the names made me laugh as I remembered them from baseball seasons gone by. That being said, I've seen Prior pitch here in Pittsburgh and he appears to have great potential. I'd much rather have him than Kerry Wood, who I think is one blown elbow or shoulder away from disaster. I don't understand dissing our own Mark in favor of their Mark. Whatever happens in the future no one can tell, but as of right now our guy has really done something. I hope I haven't harmed cw's credibility here. No one on these message boards bats .1000 but cw does know a little about baseball. Youth is great but there is something to be said for the wisdom that comes from experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 For the sake of my needing a good laugh today, please post your list however short or long of former Cub can't miss gonna be great phenoms - please! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 For the sake of my needing a good laugh today, please post your list however short or long of former Cub can't miss gonna be great phenoms - please! When I was a kid back in the ancient 1950's we lived close to North Park College. Many of the families in the neighborhood went to the Swedish Evangelical church at Christiana and Berwyn. Cub phenom Jerry Kindall went to that church and the kid that lived across the street never let me forget it. Jerry Kindall it turns out is a very nice guy and he was/is a great college baseball coach but the next Nellie Fox he was not. Other cub phenoms of the 1950's included Chuck Connors (of TV The Rifleman fame), Roy Smalley, Dee Fondy and Gene Baker. In the late 50's and early 60's the cubs always had the next Gabby Hartnett (cub icon and HOFer) at catcher. These "immortals" included Harry Chiti, Hobie Landrith and the very forgettable duo of Moe Thacker and Sammy Taylor. In that time period cub future HOFers Lee Walls and Andre Rogers come to mind. Rogers was decent for a while IIRC. Since this thread started about pitchers I remember a real phenom, my how the cubs promoted the great right hander Dick Drott. Actually the cubs promoted Dick Drott and Moe Drabowsky at the time. Both were busts with the cubs but Drabowsky did revive his career as a reliever with the World Champion Orioles in 66. My favorite cub pitching phenom of all time is Bill Faul. He actually claimed he could hypnotize the baseball!! Faul was great copy but he won a grand total of 12 games with the north siders. Apparently the baseballs didn't listen or maybe they thought they were supposed to take a ride to Waveland or Sheffield aves. In 69 and 70 when the cubs were busy blowing pennants it was said that they had a great future because of young pitchers Joe Decker and Bill Bonham. I thought Decker had great stuff and the cubs mishandled him. He tended to lose his composure when he got in a jam. One time I thought for sure he was going to punch Leo Durocher when he came to the mound to relieve him. Decker won 7 games in 4 years with the cubs before going to Minnesota and having a couple of decent years. As for Bonham, I used to call him "Bill Bomb Him" to my cub fan friends. Bill Caudill and Randy Martz are two more pitchers that come to mind. Both never lived up to their billing. There are more but I'm running out of gas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 North Park Covenant Church (was a membere there myself in the early 70s) Loree's Ice Cream George's North Park College, 5 time NCAA National Basketball Champions (Div 3) I know we've done this before but it is fun to do again and -- Bill Bonham, what a memory - all those HOFers on the scrubs - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkfan Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 experience is overrated.. a 96 mph fastball and a kickin curve is not.. i say prior is better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 experience is overrated.. a 96 mph fastball and a kickin curve is not.. i say prior is better I agree. But, ya know what trumps Prior's 96 MPH fastball and a kickin curve? Buehrle's mound presence and approach to the game. He's got the tact of a 10 year veteran. He doesn't get too high, and he doesn't get too down. He goes out there every game and gives the team (and fans) reason to believe that they're going to win. That is something that Prior has yet to prove he can do. Perhaps that will come with experience, but until it does, there's no way you can't go with Buehrle. -- '03 logo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 experience is overrated.. a 96 mph fastball and a kickin curve is not.. i say prior is better Your innocence is almost refreshing. To reject experience and choose a kickin' curve over actual results - well, to each their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 "flawless mechanics" is a phrase often used for phenoms. It takes very little for flawless mechanics to become flawed. That is when a pitcher has to be able to really pitch. There are just so variables. In the three seasons that I have watched MB I see a guy who knows how to pitch and win, how to make the adjustments on a game by game basis. As I said, maybe Prior will do it, or maybe not. The idea as suggested that the Cy Young should one day be renamed the Mark Prior had to be one the sillier things ever said. Prior fans should hope he can one day be a Kenny Holtzman first. He has to do better than last year's 6-6. The bragging on Prior has just been a wee tad bit overdone. Always, always be looking for who is coming along. Never crown the new Messiah until the honor is earned. There have been so many false Messiah's - I've seen too many and heard all the claims before. Time will tell. It's not just my observation, but experts/scouts observations that he has the best mechanics they've seen in years. There are plenty of young, touted pitchers, ala Jeff Weaver, with ridiculously terrible mechanics. It's easy to see. And no, i'm not comparing weaver's hype to prior, but weaver was supposed to be better than this. If you watch Prior throw, it's effortless. Keep in mind, i'm not knocking MB at all. I think both of them will go on to have really great careers. I just think Prior's will be better. And i did not say the Cy Young should be named the Mark Prior...i dont know what that reference is to...but if anything, he may win a few before it's all said and done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Just kind of a general comment and meant nothing by it that was negative at all. It just seeme to me that the younger posters in general are more excited about Prior and the older posters in general have a wait and see and we're happy with MB attitude. I was prone to be much more enthusiastic about guys coming up when I was the age of those phenoms - now that I am old enough to be their father, I am more laid back about it all. If my in general comment is a problem for anyone, I will take it back, I did not mean that in an unkind way at all. CWSox, i'm not offended by it. I don't know if you know how old i am...but i'm 19 just for future reference. And i've played baseball and watched baseball all my life, and i know more than my fair share about the game and how things work. Granted, i don't know the history as well as you older posters do, but at 19, i'd like to think you thought you knew a lot about the game. And about the Prior hype...i mean, i'm not an 8 year old saying "prior is god, he's super, he'll win 30 this year and every cy young for the rest of his life"...i'm giving some lengthy reasons for my beliefs that are pretty solid, and it's a nice debatable topic that we will just have to wait and see about the results. I'll admit i haven't experienced as many of these flameouts firsthand, but i've heard of them just the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Koch This, the posters in this forum who are in their teens and early 20s are a very knowledgable set of individuals and that includes you and a whole lot of others. One reason I read these boards is I learn so much from you all who watch different aspects of the game than I do. It is an honor for me to be a member of this forum with so many very insightful younger Sox fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Just kind of a general comment and meant nothing by it that was negative at all. It just seeme to me that the younger posters in general are more excited about Prior and the older posters in general have a wait and see and we're happy with MB attitude. I was prone to be much more enthusiastic about guys coming up when I was the age of those phenoms - now that I am old enough to be their father, I am more laid back about it all. If my in general comment is a problem for anyone, I will take it back, I did not mean that in an unkind way at all. Let me second that. cwsox and I are roughly the same age and we have seen many a phenom come and go. I was starting to compile a list of cub phenoms in my lifetime that were busts. The list got so long I said the hell with it. Some of the names made me laugh as I remembered them from baseball seasons gone by. That being said, I've seen Prior pitch here in Pittsburgh and he appears to have great potential. I'd much rather have him than Kerry Wood, who I think is one blown elbow or shoulder away from disaster. I don't understand dissing our own Mark in favor of their Mark. Whatever happens in the future no one can tell, but as of right now our guy has really done something. I hope I haven't harmed cw's credibility here. No one on these message boards bats .1000 but cw does know a little about baseball. Youth is great but there is something to be said for the wisdom that comes from experience. Alright, but how many of those were #1 picks (besides van poppel) AND were labeled with THE next best phenom label? Secondly, no one on this board bats .1000? What does this say about the board when no one can bat Clayton's career average? LOL, i know it was just a typo. Anyway, as far as cwsox's credibility goes, i haven't been here long but he seems like one of the more knowledgeable posters on this board, even if his picture of navarre with the false caption makes me want to puke every time i read his posts. Also, i don't know how much of a "youth" you want to label college kids...and, isn't chisoxfan roughly my age also? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Koch This, the posters in this forum who are in their teens and early 20s are a very knowledgable set of individuals and that includes you and a whole lot of others. One reason I read these boards is I learn so much from you all who watch different aspects of the game than I do. It is an honor for me to be a member of this forum with so many very insightful younger Sox fans. Ya, the age difference probly causes different people to see the game differently, but i think it only helps contribute to the way we view the game on this board. It's more of an honor for us, the "youth" to have posters with years upon years of knowledge and experience on this board than the reverse, but either way it's good to have the different viewpoints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Apparently lots of Sox fans think Prior is the real deal. Time will tell. Like I admitted I was very impressed with him, but I don't want to shortchange our own Mark. After all I'm a White Sox fan not a (some things are better left unsaid). I'm looking forward to Colon and Buerhle being a really good compliment to each other. Warren Spahn once said (I'm paraphrasing) Hitting is timing. Good pitching is destroying a hitters sense of timing. Bartolo and Mark back to back will hopefully do just that. Back to the issue at hand. Even if Prior is a 20 game stud this year I don't think the cubs will amount to much of anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Just kind of a general comment and meant nothing by it that was negative at all. It just seeme to me that the younger posters in general are more excited about Prior and the older posters in general have a wait and see and we're happy with MB attitude. I was prone to be much more enthusiastic about guys coming up when I was the age of those phenoms - now that I am old enough to be their father, I am more laid back about it all. If my in general comment is a problem for anyone, I will take it back, I did not mean that in an unkind way at all. Let me second that. cwsox and I are roughly the same age and we have seen many a phenom come and go. I was starting to compile a list of cub phenoms in my lifetime that were busts. The list got so long I said the hell with it. Some of the names made me laugh as I remembered them from baseball seasons gone by. That being said, I've seen Prior pitch here in Pittsburgh and he appears to have great potential. I'd much rather have him than Kerry Wood, who I think is one blown elbow or shoulder away from disaster. I don't understand dissing our own Mark in favor of their Mark. Whatever happens in the future no one can tell, but as of right now our guy has really done something. I hope I haven't harmed cw's credibility here. No one on these message boards bats .1000 but cw does know a little about baseball. Youth is great but there is something to be said for the wisdom that comes from experience. Alright, but how many of those were #1 picks (besides van poppel) AND were labeled with THE next best phenom label? Secondly, no one on this board bats .1000? What does this say about the board when no one can bat Clayton's career average? LOL, i know it was just a typo. Anyway, as far as cwsox's credibility goes, i haven't been here long but he seems like one of the more knowledgeable posters on this board, even if his picture of navarre with the false caption makes me want to puke every time i read his posts. Also, i don't know how much of a "youth" you want to label college kids...and, isn't chisoxfan roughly my age also? The cubs have a history of overhyping young prospects. Many long time cub fans will even admit it and get a good laugh about it with you. As far as "youth" goes that would be just about anybody younger than me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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