AngelasDaddy0427 Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 No offense but but this deal needs to be pulled today... That gives us a rotation of: Buherle Loazia Garland Garcia Ortiz Not only that Jones being in the middle of a pennant race will wake him up. Not to mention that AROW is perhaps our best defensive option in RF anyway and between him and timo could easily hit .290 plus down the stretch I say do this deal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 As for last year with the Braves: 2nd in RBIs with 126, 6 behind Sheffield with 132 4th in Runs with 101, behind Chipper, Sheff, and Furcal 3rd in total bases with 305, behind Lopez and Sheff 3rd in home runs with 36, behind Lopez and Sheff Lets look at 2002 2nd in Runs with 91, behind Furcal. 2nd in TB with 287, behind Chipper Jones. 2nd in RBI with 94, behind C Jones 1st in HR with 35. (Yes I have looked at the stats here they are. Sheff had a whole 6 more RBI's than Jones did, and Giles did not beat Jones in any category including runs.) Notice how outside of BA, Jones is in the top 5 on the braves in almost every category, in 2002 his OPS was 3rd, in 2003 his OPS was 4th. In the last 2 years he has been more consistent than Sheff and C. Jones, and to say he didnt do enough, is to not understand that outside of Sheff and Javy Jones was for sure the best offensive player they had, and played a premium defensive position at GG level. Why is Jones slumping? Its hard to tell, it might be injury, but it is more likely that the Brave's lineup is horrendous this year. The loss of Lopez and Sheff who were on fire last year, has really put the line up in a tail spin. C. Jones has been brutal, so that leaves really only 2 offensive threats in the line up Drew and Jones. Jones has been moved lower in the order, giving him almost no protection, thus he gets worked and falls into a slump. If put on a team where he will get protection, expect his average to go up to .270-.280 his career range. Most thought this would be Jones "huge" year, with over 40 hr, but the loss of potency in that line up has really hurt him. A lot of people thought Konerko was done last year, and Jones has significantly out performed that slump. Add to it that Turner Field is a pitchers park, and Jones could make a major impact on a team like the Sox who play in a more hitters friendly field, with a better line up. Buy low, sell high. For the last 3 years, he would of been considered untouchable, now the Braves are in a bad position and they want to unload him. SB Way to back it up with numbers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 By the way i'm not sure this Shoey injury is for real... I mean he loses 5 games in a row and then suddenly goes on the disabled list right before one of the biggest games of the year. It could just be that the league just figured out that new cutter of his... That makes getting Ortiz even more important... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 By the way i'm not sure this Shoey injury is for real... I mean he loses 5 games in a row and then suddenly goes on the disabled list right before one of the biggest games of the year. It could just be that the league just figured out that new cutter of his... That makes getting Ortiz even more important... Yeah i am sure they made him fake an injury so that a rookie that got smoke in his first two starts could pitch. And he said a couple starts before that he was not feeling 100% percent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bo_chi_sox Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 i still hope we get jones... i think he would come here and be great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevHead0881 Posted June 30, 2004 Author Share Posted June 30, 2004 By the way i'm not sure this Shoey injury is for real... I mean he loses 5 games in a row and then suddenly goes on the disabled list right before one of the biggest games of the year. It could just be that the league just figured out that new cutter of his... That makes getting Ortiz even more important... Good point. Plus, I think there is an added bonus to getting Ortiz in that it moves Schoeneweis to the bullpen, which could increase his effectiveness and give us another lefty option. I like Schoeneweis, just not in the rotation. His good start seemed kind of flukish to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 First off, Jones had 116 RBI last year, which is from ESPN. Second, he had one more run then Giles, and had a much lower BA. And Giles was hitting much better this year before he got hurt. As for his lack of protection this year, isn't that a true measure of how good a hitter really is? Does it matter what kind of lineup guys like Guerrero or Bonds are in? I think it's obvious that it doesn't. The point is I see no real reason to get him for the rest of the year and another two. He's making 13 million a year, and would probably bat 6th(assuming we trade Mags) behind Thomas, Lee, and Konerko, and possibly Valentin if he is still around. Should Jones really be our highest paid player? Hell no! If we make this trade, we're obviously admitting Mags is gone, but so is Freddy, because we will have less to work with. You could forget about signing any free agents too. If you are going to sign a $13 million player, he better be a franchise player that the team can build around. He isn't even the best hitter named Jones on his team. They are better off just keeping Maggs, who is much better as a hitter. Even if he goes, you get the draft picks and then you have $14 mill to work with. Then you can resign Freddy or sign any number of potential free agents. I would have no problem with acquiring Jones if he made about $7 mil, but he makes almost twice that. He's just not the kind of player you want for that kind of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 I would also like to see Andruw Jones here, along with Ortiz Not only would we get a GG CF whose offense would THRIVE in the Cell, we would add yet another solid arm to our rotation and all for giving them someone who is demanding 14 mil and walking after the season anyway.. The trade benefits us greatly And yes, Jones would go crazy in the cell... I could see .300 40 130 in a full season of play from him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 First off, Jones had 116 RBI last year, which is from ESPN. Second, he had one more run then Giles, and had a much lower BA. And Giles was hitting much better this year before he got hurt. As for his lack of protection this year, isn't that a true measure of how good a hitter really is? Does it matter what kind of lineup guys like Guerrero or Bonds are in? I think it's obvious that it doesn't. The point is I see no real reason to get him for the rest of the year and another two. He's making 13 million a year, and would probably bat 6th(assuming we trade Mags) behind Thomas, Lee, and Konerko, and possibly Valentin if he is still around. Should Jones really be our highest paid player? Hell no! If we make this trade, we're obviously admitting Mags is gone, but so is Freddy, because we will have less to work with. You could forget about signing any free agents too. If you are going to sign a $13 million player, he better be a franchise player that the team can build around. He isn't even the best hitter named Jones on his team. They are better off just keeping Maggs, who is much better as a hitter. Even if he goes, you get the draft picks and then you have $14 mill to work with. Then you can resign Freddy or sign any number of potential free agents. I would have no problem with acquiring Jones if he made about $7 mil, but he makes almost twice that. He's just not the kind of player you want for that kind of money. Maggs is not that much better than Jones... Actually I think Jones is better than Maggs overall due to the fact hes a GG fielder who can also steal a lot of bases.... He has better power numbers and with the right people in front of him his RBI #'s would soar... He plays in a PITCHERS park... put him in the Cell for one year and look at his numbers I can guarantee you they will be better than Maggs.. Oh yeah, hes 27... and will be sticking around for a while.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSteve Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 Ramon Ortiz wouldn't start here, so there is no need to trade for him. Espesially for Jose. There is no way that KW made that offer. Bullpen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 Russ Ortiz and Andruw Jones could be a damn good fit. The numbers show that Jones can be a real offensive force to be reckoned with. As for those who said he is a clubhouse cancer, we're not in the clubhouse so we are not entirely privvy to everything (obviously) and lots of times, as others have said before, the media blows things out of proportion in order to have a juicy story. So, there is a possibility that Jones being the "clubhouse cancer" are stories that are vastly overblown (or at least there is a reasonable doubt that they could be). If Maggs is gonna walk, then let's go for Jones. He's a GG winner and can be a huge offensive threat with the hitter's park the Sox have plus the offensive protection that he'd be receiving batting near Kong, Lee, Valentin, Thomas etc. He can hit LHP which is something very useful for the Sox and it's been noted how good his defense is. And if the Sox rent-a-player Ortiz to ride his arm then more power to us. He can be a solid pitcher for them through this and how sick would it be for Garland to be the #5 starter? If Maggs is gonna leave via FA, then I say let's get something for him and if it's a GG center fielder then that's just icing on the cake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 I want Jones/Ortiz for Maggs/Rauch. I'd do it in a second. The fact-of-the-matter is that if Maggs leaves in FA, we get squat BUT if we trade him along with Rauch for Ortiz/Jones, we basically have Ortiz for the rest of this season and Jones for 3 years. Its like trading Jones for Rauch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSteve Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 The fact-of-the-matter is that if Maggs leaves in FA, we get squat... We'd get draft picks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFan1 Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 We'd get draft picks... But we'd have to wait for them to come through the minors. I'm talking within recent future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSteve Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 But we'd have to wait for them to come through the minors. I'm talking within recent future. Nope, you said squat, which isn't true. For all you know, we could draft the next Barry Bonds, while we could also draft someone who never makes it out of AA. It is still something. What about drafting a college pitcher. Prior pitched his first season. There was talk Huston Street of Texas could pitch this season aswell, so he was just drafted this year. So, your arguement doesn't stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 Nope, you said squat, which isn't true. For all you know, we could draft the next Barry Bonds, while we could also draft someone who never makes it out of AA. It is still something. What about drafting a college pitcher. Prior pitched his first season. There was talk Huston Street of Texas could pitch this season aswell, so he was just drafted this year. So, your arguement doesn't stand. Technicalities. We would effectively get squat for Maggs. The draft picks could not possibly be any higher than #16 overall and a sandwich pick after thefirst round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 Haven't seen this anywhere around here, so I thought I'd post it. Most of this stuff is old news, but there are a couple interesting notes here. First is the interest in Alomar. I don't know why we'd want Alomar back after he stiffed us last year, plus he pretty much is washed up and would not fit in our already crowded infield. Also, take a look at Russ Ortiz stats against the AL; not bad. Roberto Alomar, 2B, Arizona: He's on the list more because the Diamondbacks are committed to Scott Hairston as their second baseman than there being a high level of interest in the 12-time All-Star on the trade market. Alomar probably will be unloaded essentially for peanuts, and the Arizona Republic reports the Astros, White Sox and Yankees are believed to have interest. Of course, the Yankees are more focused on dealing for pitching, the White Sox were burned by "renting" Alomar last year and the Astros have some guy named Jeff Kent at second base, so none of those three proposed destinations is a guarantee. Alomar is unlikely to revert to his old elite Fantasy form even if he does get moved in the coming weeks, but at least he would have a better chance at starting status on another team. Ramon Ortiz, SP, Anaheim: He makes the list because he has filed nearly as many requests for a trade than starts he has made this season. The Angels simply have better starters -- at least in their minds -- on their roster, so Ortiz has become more of an afterthought. Unfortunately, the right-hander's persistence in his requests has done nothing but decrease the likelihood he'll be moved, as the Los Angeles Times reports the White Sox offered Jose Valentin and the Orioles offered Buddy Groom in exchange, proposals the team felt were of the low-ball variety. Ortiz only will warrant Fantasy consideration if he moves to a team that will grant him a permanent rotation spot. Russ Ortiz, SP, Atlanta: The "other" Ortiz has attracted much more interest on the trade front, but any deals involving him might not come for a few more weeks since they would surely signal the Braves packing things in this season. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution reports that before the Garcia trade was completed, the Braves and White Sox had been discussing a swap for Ortiz that would have had Andruw Jones moving to Chicago and Magglio Ordonez landing in Atlanta. Ortiz also has caught the Yankees' eye, a move that would help boost his run support (he's currently at 4.63). Incidentally, those worried about how Ortiz would fare in the American League should take into account that in 20 career games (19 starts) during interleague play, he's 7-5 with a 3.48 ERA. Well there goes the theory of Ortiz not being able to pitch as well in the american league. 3.48 is a very impressive era. I still don't get how the Braves, who r like 3 gms outta 1st place start making this big trades? Maybe they figure that they've choked in the playoffs so many times that it's not even worth makin it anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 How are Jones' RBI numbers going to soar? He had 116 batting behind arguably the best first 4 hitters in the league last year! Everyone ahead of himhead of him batted at least .290, and Furcal and Giles can really run. He wouldn't have that here. He'd be batting behind a bunch of slow sluggers. And for anyone thinking he's going to steal bases, you got another thing coming. It's been a long time since he hit double digits. Listen to virtually any expert or the people in Atlanta, and they have basically determined that he's done. They are so desperate to get rid of his contract that apparently they won't deal Ortiz without him. And to the best of my knowledge, he didn't when a GG last year. Also, I am sick about hearing about park factors. How many did we think Lee would hit with the new setup? He's got 6. Why has Uribe crushed his career high after he left Coors? Look at Jones' splits for the last three years, and it hasn't made much difference. He's batting 4 points higher at home and has 5 more homers on the road. Most of these stats are just a statistical anomally. There are too many variables, suck as who is pitching and who has a good game when. Jones is really sucking this year. Look at who is ranked just above and below him on the Yahoo! Fantasy Ratings, which are based on who is producing the most at the plate. He's ranked right between Rondell White and Jody Garrett. Stop looking at past numbers and look at what he is doing now. Acquiring Jones would destroy our payroll for the next 2+ years, all for a 5th starter and a #6 hitter batting that is slipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 How are Jones' RBI numbers going to soar? He had 116 batting behind arguably the best first 4 hitters in the league last year! Everyone ahead of himhead of him batted at least .290, and Furcal and Giles can really run. He wouldn't have that here. He'd be batting behind a bunch of slow sluggers. And for anyone thinking he's going to steal bases, you got another thing coming. It's been a long time since he hit double digits. Listen to virtually any expert or the people in Atlanta, and they have basically determined that he's done. They are so desperate to get rid of his contract that apparently they won't deal Ortiz without him. And to the best of my knowledge, he didn't when a GG last year. Also, I am sick about hearing about park factors. How many did we think Lee would hit with the new setup? He's got 6. Why has Uribe crushed his career high after he left Coors? Look at Jones' splits for the last three years, and it hasn't made much difference. He's batting 4 points higher at home and has 5 more homers on the road. Most of these stats are just a statistical anomally. There are too many variables, suck as who is pitching and who has a good game when. Jones is really sucking this year. Look at who is ranked just above and below him on the Yahoo! Fantasy Ratings, which are based on who is producing the most at the plate. He's ranked right between Rondell White and Jody Garrett. Stop looking at past numbers and look at what he is doing now. Acquiring Jones would destroy our payroll for the next 2+ years, all for a 5th starter and a #6 hitter batting that is slipping. Simply because US Cellular is a hitters park, and where Jones currently plays, even with the numbers he posted last year, it was at a pure pitchers park. It's really THAT simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 A comparison at the plate between Maggs and Jones the last 3 full seasons... Jones 2003 101 runs 36 homers 116 RBI .277 BA .338 OBP 2002 91 runs 35 HR 94 RBI .264 BA .366 OBP 2001 104 runs 34 HR 104 RBI .251 BA .312 OBP Mags 2003 95 runs 29 HR 99 RBI .317 BA .380 OBP 2002 116 runs 38 HR 135 RBI .320 BA .381 OBP 2001 97 runs 31 HR 113 RBI .305 BA .382 OBP Notice the categories that are not as dependent on the lineup(although Maggs did crush him across the board in 02, this is not my main point). In batting average and on base percentage, he is much weaker than Mags. These arguably the two most important numbers when evaluating a hitter. If the lineup had started hitting before July in 01 and 03, Mags surely would have outperformed Jones in the other categories too. So I ask again, why do we want to invest so much money in a career .267 hitter that his team is desperate to get rid of? If we were going to trade Mags, wouldn't it make a lot more sense to trade him for some studs, such as Randy Johnson, or Guillermo Mota and Odalis Perez? Just because it is the best rumored deal doesn't make it or good one or mean that we should do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 Not to mention, I've heard that, "That player is DONE" BS before. They said it about Konerko. They were wrong. They said it about Thomas. They were wrong. And I DO believe they are wrong about a 27 year old Andruw Jones, who can EASILY drop 10 pounds on a team that isn't waving a white flag around, where he would actually LIKE playing. You don't get 6 gold golves in CF and put up BETTER THAN AVG offensive numbers up till the age of 27 and suddenly stop. Think about it. The only thing Jones lacks right now is a reason to play hard...on the Sox, I DO believe he'd find that reason. They told us Carl Everett is a huge club-house cancer last year, too... Oh, and again, they were WRONG. WRONG WRONG WRONG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 The best thing I got from the Rumor Mill..... Carl Pohlund, the Twins GM, said they will NOT add payroll due to the fact they did not get a new stadium deal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 A comparison at the plate between Maggs and Jones the last 3 full seasons... Jones 2003 101 runs 36 homers 116 RBI .277 BA .338 OBP 2002 91 runs 35 HR 94 RBI .264 BA .366 OBP 2001 104 runs 34 HR 104 RBI .251 BA .312 OBP Mags 2003 95 runs 29 HR 99 RBI .317 BA .380 OBP 2002 116 runs 38 HR 135 RBI .320 BA .381 OBP 2001 97 runs 31 HR 113 RBI .305 BA .382 OBP Notice the categories that are not as dependent on the lineup(although Maggs did crush him across the board in 02, this is not my main point). In batting average and on base percentage, he is much weaker than Mags. These arguably the two most important numbers when evaluating a hitter. If the lineup had started hitting before July in 01 and 03, Mags surely would have outperformed Jones in the other categories too. So I ask again, why do we want to invest so much money in a career .267 hitter that his team is desperate to get rid of? If we were going to trade Mags, wouldn't it make a lot more sense to trade him for some studs, such as Randy Johnson, or Guillermo Mota and Odalis Perez? Just because it is the best rumored deal doesn't make it or good one or mean that we should do it. I think you are missing a MAJOR point here. There is a 99% chance we will NOT resign Magglio. And you ONLY get draft picks losing a FA if you offer them Arbitration, which we WILL NOT DO, since we cannot afford him. So no, you do NOT get draft picks. AND, Jones currently is on a sizeable contract that we WANT Mags to take, obviously the Sox CAN afford what Jones is making, since it's in the 12M range, which we want Mags to take. I'd give up the little extra offensive power Mags adds to our lineup (which we have prooven we do NOT need), for the defense we will get in CF. Not to mention, Jones will put up some offensive numbers, not as good as Mags, but again...without Mags we score tons of runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 I think you are missing a MAJOR point here. There is a 99% chance we will NOT resign Magglio. And you ONLY get draft picks losing a FA if you offer them Arbitration, which we WILL NOT DO, since we cannot afford him. So no, you do NOT get draft picks. AND, Jones currently is on a sizeable contract that we WANT Mags to take, obviously the Sox CAN afford what Jones is making, since it's in the 12M range, which we want Mags to take. I'd give up the little extra offensive power Mags adds to our lineup (which we have prooven we do NOT need), for the defense we will get in CF. Not to mention, Jones will put up some offensive numbers, not as good as Mags, but again...without Mags we score tons of runs. Jones is just as good as Maggs offensively NOT to mention he is in a pitchers park, put him in a hitters park like the cell and he goes off like a light switch at bedtime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 Jones is just as good as Maggs offensively NOT to mention he is in a pitchers park, put him in a hitters park like the cell and he goes off like a light switch at bedtime He's not quite as good as Mags offensively, as historic stats proove that, BUT, he's also not had the opportunity to hit in a hitters park like US Cellular, unlike Mags. The difference-maker for me is the defense...we'd have CF locked down with a 6 time GG player... If we can re-sign Mags, keep him...if not, I'd go for the Jones deal...better than winding up with NOTHING next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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