Did anyone see F 9-11 yet..?

[kapkomet]

I don't think either will happen.

[bmags]

i didn't read this entire thread...but i saw it today...and here are my thoughts:

 

There are some parts where i thought more overtly held grudges against the president. According to the 9/11 report...the first time bush was told a plane hit the WTC...he was told it was a "private jet, small airliner" the second thing whispered in his ear was "america is under attack" and i don't neccisarily disagree with him not causing a panic by rushing out of there.

 

I didn't like where he interviewed the soldiers in a mocking tone...i give soldiers the benefit of the doubt, since i've read it from soldiers so many times...is that many accept their death as soon as they arrive, so the state of mind they are in is not liberation, but kill or be killed. I don't think he emphasized that Immorality at the top breeds it through all the levels.

 

He presented many eye brow raising connections, but nothing hard enough to say, hey, this is concrete, these people knew they would profit off of 9/11, or else it can be eye brow raising, but everyone realized that people have a lot of connections...

 

Also, the only connection he gave of the Bin Laden family with Osama was a wedding they attended, then he basically, in his mind, found them guilty, and any thing they did was evil, well, Osama is not connected with his family, and they should be allowed to live without people thinking they are terrorists. Plus, the FBI did question the bin ladens, and Richard Clarke okayed their flight out...

 

Now, this movie i was cracking up, and on the verge of tears. Does anyone know if he interviewed the women whose soldier died before her son died and after? or was it all after? Plus, as a movie, he's gotten even better in keeping it entertaining...I thought sometimes it would be effective to use a split screen when he showed bush loafing while chaos was happening...but he didn't, but excellent use of just audio with a black screen, not showing what happened to the WTC was effective, and just showing the people broke everyones heart. That day is not something i like bringing back to memory, but i never regret doing it. It kills me everytime. The hilarious pop culture references with Bonanza and Dragnet were fantastic and better than "bowlings" cartoon sequence. And to close it out with the "Won't get fooled again" thing was great! I always crack up seeing that...

 

Now, to the Moore haters, grow up, do you honestly find americans so easily manipulated that a man is not able to make a film without turning them into his own puppets? IF Bush had his way he would be far more manipulative if he already hasn't. People are so scared of dissention, and criticism of a republican president. I have a right to have a say...and i use that right. Bush has done good and bad things...its not blasphemus to say so.

[bmags]

also, wonderful 1984 references at end of movie...people use orwellian and it comes out as too hyperbole, but he used it EFFECTIVELY and it was great for the end of the movie.

[Rex Kickass]

Moore raises one key question: that of the fund raising and the redacted name on the released Bush national guard records in 2004. The connection seems eerie and worth investigating. If he's been relying on foreign government and Bin Laden family money all his life for his businesses, is this someone we'd want as president in the first place?

[bmags]

i think he also made the point that we didn't want him in the first place

[Chisoxfn]

two scenarios here....will john kerry pick hillary as his VP...gaurenteeing a dem victory

 

will president bush change VP and convince powell to run..gaurenteeing a GOP victory..

 

if both scenarios happen we'd have voter turnout like you wouldnt believe

No way Hillary would ever not run. Its quite obvious that Hillary or the Clinton's single handedly took out Howard Dean because they thought Kerry would be less likely to win and then Hillary would have a pretty good shot at running for president four years from now.

 

I heard Dick Morris refer to the democrat attacks on Dean and he said their was no way it was Dean stepping on himself. It was him making a mistake and then the Clinton and their people doing whatever they could to knock Dean completely out of the race.

 

It was a really good interview and it happened after Dean got knocked out. He was completely smeared and assaulted by the democrats during the primaries.

[Chisoxfn]

My flaw with this movie was it seemed like a very far reaching conspiracy trying to tie the Bush's going to war on them trying to profit. To me thats apalling because George Sr. to me is one of the most respected and most patriotic americans I've ever seen.

 

Also in the movie Moore makes this big deal that Bush reads over the FBI reports and what not and is the only president who does so (even though any fprmer president can access them). Of course he forgets to say the reason is because Bush was freaking in charge of it prior to becoming Regans VP.

[Chisoxfn]

Had Hitler not tried to create Genocide, he probably would of went down as one of the greatest world leaders ever. The fact that he could go into his speaches and motivate people the way he did and get Germany to recover from the sheer economic losses they suffered from WWI (with all the reperations and what not) was amazing.

 

Of course the guy was a complete f***tard and is the worse person to ever of lived.

[Steff]

My flaw with this movie was it seemed like a very far reaching conspiracy trying to tie the Bush's going to war on them trying to profit.  To me thats apalling because George Sr. to me is one of the most respected and most patriotic americans I've ever seen.

 

Also in the movie Moore makes this big deal that Bush reads over the FBI reports and what not and is the only president who does so (even though any fprmer president can access them).  Of course he forgets to say the reason is because Bush was freaking in charge of it prior to becoming Regans VP.

"Big deal" Jason..? It was one comment. And, IMO, important to the puzzle if the ties to the Bin Ladin family are as deep as they appear, and the intense desire to get Saddam at all costs (which again IMO is all this war is). If Jr had come into office and said "I want to kill Saddam because he tried to kill my daddy.." or even "this man is very bad, has killed millions of people, we need to help them, etc, etc..." (even though many would have said "mind your own damn business GW!) I would have a ton more respect for him. On another note.. as far as Sr being the most respected and patriotic... the Regans - Nancy included have serious issues with him now. That raises even more questions for me.

[Steff]

Moore raises one key question: that of the fund raising and the redacted name on the released Bush national guard records in 2004. The connection seems eerie and worth investigating. If he's been relying on foreign government and Bin Laden family money all his life for his businesses, is this someone we'd want as president in the first place?

A friggin men! There appears to be corruption on some level since the begining of Jr's adult life.

 

 

Also, bmags, the Carlyle Group was the NUMBER 1 holder of defense contracts... going to war guaranteed them to make millions.. err.. billions. How could they not have known they were going to make money?

 

Also, regarding the Osama connection.. it wasn't just about Osama. It's about dealing with his family for decades. Jr's buddy in the NG is the US controller of the BL empire. You think it's just a coincidence that they donated and invested so much into the Bush controlled companies?

 

And finally.. Clarke did approve their flights out (on who's order..?) but several FBI higer ups have said that they were not questioned as they should have been. How should they have been? I am not a police officer, I have no idea. But I sure would have like to have seen their interviews on record. I mean c'mon.. their relative just claimed responsibilty for killing THREE THOUSAND AMERICANS, and not ONE of their interviews (not even the half brother who had just seen Osama - and no one is even sure if he was talked to at all) are on the record??

 

Again.. I'm not a MM supporter. I took the movie at face value, but I knew a lot of this stuff already so it wasn't a shock. I thought the entertainment comparisions (Dragnet, the western thing) were hysterical. Yea... it was one sided. Most opinions are. But it was entertaining.

[1549]

I dispute your characterization of what Democrats on this board say, I have never seen a post akin to what you state nor even get a sense of that.  Please beware of setting up your straw arguments

 

Point noted...though I am 100% positive I have seen posts to the affect of "republicans are elitists".

 

I also dispute that the Nazis were the party of the working class, the proletariat as you term it.  Far from it.  Totally opposite.  Hitler hijacked the political party and used its name and turned it into something other.  The proletariat of Wiemar Germany was indeed tending towards the socialist camp.  The Nazi party had nothing to do with socialism or workers, despite the hijacked name.  The Nazi's base included many of Germany's wealthiest industrialists (who were as a whoie antiSemitic) as well as tapping into a deep well of wounded nationalism, retired military, and antiSemitism.  The indistrialists got their inital payback with the militarization of the Rhineland, the first of many ways that Hitler paid back the wealthiest industrialists for their long standing support from the mid 1920s on. 

 

Because you have studied this period your whole life, I suppose I can't teach you anything new on the subject. I can give my understanding of what went on, and if I am wrong, perhaps you can correct me where needed.

 

-WWI, treaty of Versailles leaves Germany in a state of disrepair, both economically, and mentally. Inflation is so high, that Germans are taking wheel-barrows full of money to buy flour.

 

-The Government of the Weimar Republic is not affective in restoring faith in Germany. The factory owners are having trouble keeping factories open, and the lower class is jobless and starving on the streets.

 

-Hitler meanwhile has already attempted to overthrow a government and was arrested in the Beer Hall Putsch. When arriving back in Germany, Hitler finds the Nazi party struggling for leadership.

 

-Hitler takes the helm and inspires the workers with his eloquent speeches, and his enthusiasm about restoring Germany.

 

-In the election of 1932, the nazi party recieves more than 30%, and appoints Hitler in command. Hitler does some political manuevering and erases the rest of the government.

 

-Under Hitler, ALL CLASSES benefit, and rich and poor are once again proud to be German.

 

So far from being a working class or proletatriat guy, Hitler (who never labored a day in his life and knew where the money was) was always the capitalists great friend and that is from where he drew support, succor, financial backing, and legitimatization.   Never from the workers.

 

It is my understanding that the upperclasses of germany did not support Hitler until the financial success began. As the Nuremberg Laws began to restrict Jews, the economy was rebounding so much that the new laws did not cause much of an uproar in mainstream German Society.

 

As for Henry Ford his support for Hitler was because he disliked Jewish people, and I am amazed that this is not mentioned as often as it probably should be.

 

As for the Patriot Act.

 

I actually attempted to print it out once, but I discovered it was over 100 paiges long, so I had to stop.

 

Lets look at some key terms in it though:

'Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism'

 

That is the short title in a nut shell, but how far are we willing to go to prevent terrorism?

 

That question means everything. I am not as familiar with the Patriot Act as I should be at this point, so I can not carry on a full lenght spirited discussion.

 

But if the majority of American people think that giving up civil rights for safety is reasonable...then I can't criticize this act. But I can say that this act does not make me feel any safer. If a guy want to blow himself up, only the guy standing next to him can stop him. Hopefully though, this act will prevent large orgainized attacks like 9-11 from occurring.

[bmags]

okay...when the economy is that bad...Hitlers strong bravado of talking about making a third reich is what captivated the people, not because he was more aken to the working man.

 

And in that 1932 election, because he got 30% does not mean he was put into office...because the next election, he recieved far less. I believe it was the berlin times that were telling people all of hitlers fascist agenda. Hitler was offered VIce Chancellor but didn't take it right away. There was a vote from the politicians that would let Hitler into his power position, and he had storm troopers waiting outside for any politician who voted against him...

[bmags]

Steff, i'm not saying they didn't stand to make it once it happened...i'm saying was he worried about an attack on American soil if he stood to make so much money off of it.

[1549]

okay...when the economy is that bad...Hitlers strong bravado of talking about making a third reich is what captivated the people, not because he was more aken to the working man.

 

And in that 1932 election, because he got 30% does not mean he was put into office...because the next election, he recieved far less. I believe it was the berlin times that were telling people all of hitlers fascist agenda. Hitler was offered VIce Chancellor but didn't take it right away. There was a vote from the politicians that would let Hitler into his power position, and he had storm troopers waiting outside for any politician who voted against him...

Hitler lived a pretty high class life in Austria as a child, and aspired to be a painter. Noone has ever said he was akin to the working man. I said he used their plights as a platform to gain support in Germany.

 

I did not say Hitler recieved 30+% in the election. The Nazi party did. That gave them a majority in the Government and they appointed Hitler. He then erased the other executive branches, through political manueverings which, as you said, included intimidation.

[hi8is]

this movie was amazing

it not only showed me that bush is really really f***ed up (that i already knew, so it was good to see someone say it in such a fourm)

but it also showed me how messed up our governments system is... it even showed that democrats were messed up (that whole senate not giving one vote to all those people in the start)

 

political ties and family connections like moore showed are real and im sure that with all the money and oil involved... they arent conspiaricy theorys... there facts that some people try to make the general public think are theorys of mad men

 

i loved how he used the quote from 1984 at the end

[cwsox]

1549,

 

I don't think we are very far apart and conversing with you is always a pleasure

 

I think there is one word here and there that I would differ on

 

Hitler takes the helm and inspires the workers with his eloquent speeches, and his enthusiasm about restoring Germany.

 

The work "workers." The trade unionists opposed him and he opposed them. Hitler had a definite appeal to the (what the Germans called) underclass, which made up the membership of the brown shirts for the most part, but not the workers. And he had money from the industrialists almost from the beginning because of his appeal to the military and anti semitic, which is NOT to say the military and and business class are per se anti semitic but in Germany they were in the 1920s. Check out "Hitler's Willing Executions" by Goldhagen.

 

And I would differ on

Under Hitler, ALL CLASSES benefit, and rich and poor are once again proud to be German.

 

I so differ on that. The Barmen Declaration was adopted in 1934, in fact many in the German protestant churches were vehemently antiNazi all along. Violence began almost immediately under the SA until the Night of the Long Knives when Hitler had them all killed in the rise of the SS. Dachau was up and operating very early in the regime. Violence and emigration were very prominent in the early years of the Reich, emmigration especially of the intellectuals. That is how Einstein ended up in the US, for example. The so-called image of German pride was more the creation of Leni Riefenstahl movies (brilliantly done) than reality, which is not to discount those who went along because they exalted nation over other things - the substance of the Barmen Declaration's protest against the elevation of nation over God.

 

I didn't mean to heavy up on you on the lifetime student thing and I have much, much to learn. I was struck by the story of Anne Frank when I was about 8 and had to know all about it and have ever since A major theologian of mine is Bonhoeffer, who was a part of the 20 July 1944 Canaris assassination conspiracy and was executed in 1945. I made a career in seminary (and since) on papers on the struggle of the Church against Hitler. I have much, much to learn because the subject is so incomprehensible.

 

I always enjoy enchanges with you. Thank you for the pleasure.

[1549]

The work "workers."  The trade unionists opposed him and he opposed them.  Hitler had a definite appeal to the (what the Germans called) underclass, which made up the membership of the brown shirts for the most part, but not the workers.  And he had money from the industrialists almost from the beginning because of his appeal to the military and anti semitic, which is NOT to say the military and and business class are per se anti semitic but in Germany they were in the 1920s.  Check out "Hitler's Willing Executions" by Goldhagen.

 

I never knew that the unions opposed Hitler. I figured that the unions and labor orginizations would be in favor of Hitler because of the original Nazi party ideals. It is funny how the brown shirts were an initial spring board for Hitler, doing his dirty work and such. But once Hitler gained power, even the brown shirts were replaced by the 'more aryan' Gestapo and SS.

 

I so differ on that.  The Barmen Declaration was adopted in 1934, in fact many in the German protestant churches were vehemently antiNazi all along.  Violence began almost immediately under the SA until the Night of the Long Knives when Hitler had them all killed in the rise of the SS.  Dachau was up and operating very early in the regime.  Violence and emigration were very prominent in the early years of the Reich, emmigration especially of the intellectuals.  That is how Einstein ended up in the US, for example.   The so-called image of German pride was more the creation of Leni Riefenstahl movies (brilliantly done) than reality, which is not to discount those who went along because they exalted nation over other things - the substance of the Barmen Declaration's protest against the elevation of nation over God.

 

The propoganda machine that the Nazi's produced is amazing. The pictures, film, and pure orginization that it shows is disgustingly good. The dedication they showed makes you wonder what kind of place Germany could have been had Hitler not wanted to exterminate the Jews and conquer Europe.

 

I am also curious about the Catholic Church's relationship with the Nazi's. Many churches helped Jews, and most catholic church's survived Hitler's wrath, which implies some sort of agreement possibly with the pope. However I have never heard of any official deals. When I brought this topic up to my teacher, she didn't have any answers.

 

I didn't mean to heavy up on you on the lifetime student thing and I have much, much to learn.  I was struck by the story of Anne Frank when I was about 8 and had to know all about it and have ever since  A major theologian of mine is Bonhoeffer, who was a part of the 20 July 1944 Canaris assassination conspiracy and was executed in 1945.  I made a career in seminary (and since) on papers on the struggle of the Church against Hitler.  I have much, much to learn because the subject is so incomprehensible.

 

I have always had an interest in History. I grew up in an environment with a lot of history books and stuff because my dad loves history as well. In school it always fascinated me to the point where I would focus on certain subject for years. I probably dedicated a good 6 years of my life to the Titanic, and another 6 to the exploration of space.

 

Lately I have been big on studying the Revolutionary War, Civil War, and the early Cold War era. Most of my knowledge of Nazi Germany comes from a holocaust studies class I took. I enjoyed it because it went past the surface of the holocaust and examined the social dynamics of Germany at the time.

 

I always enjoy enchanges with you.  Thank you for the pleasure.

 

Thanks is not necessary, it is always great to talk about history with a fellow Sox fan

 

I just hope this conversation hasn't bored the rest of the Soxtalk community

[kapkomet]

Keep on a goin' on... This is some good stuff...

[LowerCaseRepublican]

1549, re: Catholics in the Holocaust making deals there is a book, I believe the title is "Hitler's Pope" (can't remember the author) that details a lot.

[FlaSoxxJim]

Letterman's Top Ten List: Top Ten George W. Bush Complaints About "Fahrenheit 9/11":

 

10. That actor who played the President was totally unconvincing

 9. It oversimplified the way I stole the election

8. Too many of them fancy college-boy words

7. If Michael Moore had waited a few months, he could have included the part where I get him deported

6. Didn't have one of them hilarious monkeys who smoke cigarettes and gives people the finger

5. Of all Michael Moore's accusations, only 97% are true

4. Not sure - - I passed out after a piece of popcorn lodged in my windpipe

3. Where the hell was Spider-man?

2. Couldn't hear most of the movie over Cheney's foul mouth

1. I thought this was supposed to be about dodgeball

[kapkomet]

 

Only 9 out of 10 of the above are true...

[israel4ever]

Letterman's Top Ten List: Top Ten George W. Bush Complaints About "Fahrenheit 9/11":

 

10. That actor who played the President was totally unconvincing

 9. It oversimplified the way I stole the election

8. Too many of them fancy college-boy words

7. If Michael Moore had waited a few months, he could have included the part where I get him deported

6. Didn't have one of them hilarious monkeys who smoke cigarettes and gives people the finger

5. Of all Michael Moore's accusations, only 97% are true

4. Not sure - - I passed out after a piece of popcorn lodged in my windpipe

3. Where the hell was Spider-man?

2. Couldn't hear most of the movie over Cheney's foul mouth

1. I thought this was supposed to be about dodgeball

Too funny!!!