KipWellsFan Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Could anyone explain this exact conditions for earning a save? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 I'm gonna try and come close, but may not be exact. There are three ways... 1. When a pitcher enters the game with a lead of thee runs or less and finishes that game without relinquishing the lead. 2. When a pitcher enters the game (regardless of the lead) with the tying run at the plate or in the on-deck circle and finishes that game without relinquishing the lead. For example, Koch comes into a 5-0 game in the 9th inning with the bases loaded. He would qualify because the potential tying run is on deck. This is the one I may be off on, but I think I got it right. 3. When a pitcher pitches three or more innings effectively without relinquishing the lead he inherited. Again, he must finish the game to earn the save. This is kind of the BS save rule, because a guy can enter a 10-0 game and pitch the 7th, 8th and 9th and get a save. If i missed something or was off on any of this, please correct me. This was off the top of my head and it has been years since I have seen it all in print. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KipWellsFan Posted March 6, 2003 Author Share Posted March 6, 2003 I think there are very few people who actually know all the technicalities of a save. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 I used to umpire so I read the rulebook cover to cover every year, but it has been a good 8 or 9 years since I have done that, though. For what it is worth, I recommend that for off-season reading. You'd be amazed at the little things you never knew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 I used to umpire so I read the rulebook cover to cover every year, but it has been a good 8 or 9 years since I have done that, though. For what it is worth, I recommend that for off-season reading. You'd be amazed at the little things you never knew. Back in the 80's when they had Monday Night Baseball on ABC, "You Make the Call" was so money. That was the first thing that came to my mind when you mentioned "the little things you never knew." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Two interesting tidbits in that regard..... Ever hear "the hand is part of the bat"? That is one of the biggest incorrect assumptions in baseball. The hand is NOT part of the bat. If a player is hit while swinging it is a dead ball and a strike, whether it hits him in the hand or square in the face. If it hits his hand and he is not swinging, it is a hit by pitch and the batter goes to first. The only gray area is when the ball gets some bat and some hand. If the umpire hears the crack of the wood, unless he can see red marks or swelling on the hand, he'll likely go with what he heard. The other one everyone has heard is "the tie goes to the runner". There is no such thing as a tie and nowhere does the rule book mention a tie. It says the runner is out if the ball reaches first before the runner. I says he is safe if the runner beats the ball. It is one or the other and the decision has to be made. In 8 years of umpiring I never saw a tie. He was safe or out, but not safe because of a tie. Enough rambling, I just decided to take a walk down memory lane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Straight from the "Official Baseball Rules" on MLB.com SAVES FOR RELIEF PITCHERS 10.20 Credit a pitcher with a save when he meets all three of the following conditions: (1) He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his club; and (2) He is not the winning pitcher; and (3) He qualifies under one of the following conditions: (a) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning; or (B) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batsmen he faces); or © He pitches effectively for at least three innings. No more than one save may be credited in each game. Of course, I have to do it the hard way the first time around....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KipWellsFan Posted March 6, 2003 Author Share Posted March 6, 2003 © He pitches effectively for at least three innings. No more than one save may be credited in each game. So a save can actually be awarded due to the judgement of the official scorer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 I believe so. I think they are pretty generous, but in my example, if a pitcher comes into a 10-0 game and the game ends 10-5, then they probably don't give him the save. I think it is kind of like a stolen base late in the game when the defense doesn't even try to stop it, they don't give a SB, but rule it a fielder's choice or "catcher's indifference". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Rex, you had it nailed on your first explaination, but pulling out the rulebook eliminated all doubt. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BridgeportHeather Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 (2) He is not the winning pitcher So then what would be the case if say Danny Wright pitches poorly, and the Sox are down by two runs when Manuel decides to bring in Gordon in the 8th inning. While Gordon is in the game, the Sox gain the lead, and Manuel decides he wants Gordon to pitch in the 9th (see Foulke situation against Yankees...this kinda thing could happen where he'd get two innings of relief). Gordon has a 2-run lead, and he pitches out of the 9th without giving up any runs. The Sox win the game. Gordon would be the winning pitcher; however, does this mean that no save would be awarded to anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 (2) He is not the winning pitcher So then what would be the case if say Danny Wright pitches poorly, and the Sox are down by two runs when Manuel decides to bring in Gordon in the 8th inning. While Gordon is in the game, the Sox gain the lead, and Manuel decides he wants Gordon to pitch in the 9th (see Foulke situation against Yankees...this kinda thing could happen where he'd get two innings of relief). Gordon has a 2-run lead, and he pitches out of the 9th without giving up any runs. The Sox win the game. Gordon would be the winning pitcher; however, does this mean that no save would be awarded to anyone? If Gordon finishes the game, and is also the winning pitcher, no save would be awarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 a pitcher cannot get a win and a save in the same game, Heather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Rex Hudler I'm impressed. Man there are some sharp people here. I had completely forgotten about pitching 3 innings to qualify for a save. Up until fairly recently lots of guys would pitch more than one and as many as three to finish the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniKrush Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 the "tie goes to the runner" thing pisses me off. The ball has to beat the guy to the bag, plain and simple. It's not like one day the rule makers sat down and said "hey, what if there's a tie" and they flipped a coin and decided it'd go to the runner. I like to think that when i hit the bag at the exact same time the throw gets there i "beat" the ball to the bag. I think that makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 I like to think that when i hit the bag at the exact same time the throw gets there i "beat" the ball to the bag. That is why the "tie goes to the runner" You beat the ball to the bag..... that sounds dirty..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 The thing is there is no tie. The umpire has to decide which happened first. It is humanly impossible to decipher whether they got there at the "exact" same time, so the decision is made. Think of it this way...... when an umpire makes a call at first, he looks at the bag for the runners foot and listens for the sound of the ball hitting the 1Bman's glove. There is no way he can see both at the same time. So theoretically, if he hears the sound at the same time as he sees the foot hit the bag, then the runner is out. Here's why.... The speed of sound travels slower than the speed of light (vision). So, if the sound is heard at the same time as the foot is seen to hit the bag, then the sound actually occurred fractions of a second sooner because of the slower speed sound travels. Now an umpire isn't going to use that explanation on a Major League manager who came out to argue. He will just say that the ball beat him. The bottom line is it is a judgement call and the judgement must be made as to which happened first. In an umpire's mind, there is no tie. So if you hear a big league announcer ever say that, then you know he doesn't know what he is talking about and is just spewing what everyone else has heard forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 The speed of sound travels slower than the speed of light (vision). LOL. While this is true, it is completely irrelevant in this instance due to 1 simple fact -- the ump is only 10-15 feet away, so the difference in speeds might as well be nill. The ump makes a judgement call, and unless he's rooting for 1 team over the other, he will do his best to make sure the "tough calls" get divided up evenly -- they say they "call em as they see em", but they're only human. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 "tough calls" get divided up evenly That is not even close to true. An umpire makes a call as he sees it at that moment. Yes he is human and they make mistakes, but I assure you that when the ball is put in play, the umpire is not thinking about who got the last close call. He looks, sees the play and calls it. It makes no difference whatsoever what happened on the last call, or the one before that, or the one...... You get the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clujer420 Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 "tough calls" get divided up evenly That is not even close to true. An umpire makes a call as he sees it at that moment. Yes he is human and they make mistakes, but I assure you that when the ball is put in play, the umpire is not thinking about who got the last close call. He looks, sees the play and calls it. It makes no difference whatsoever what happened on the last call, or the one before that, or the one...... You get the idea. Well, aside from the fact that you replied to a partial quote, you're still wrong. You cannot tell me that if an ump feels like he made a mistake earlier in the game that he will not subconsciously make up for it later in the game if the opportunity presents itself. If you disagree, that's fine - but I feel you would be wrong to do so. Assuming they aren't already biased, as I already said before, they will call it right down the middle as best they can. But if there are a few toughies, they're basically going to even out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 There's some good conversations going on here....it is just fun to read. I remember in some older Baseball Digests that there are some things where they'll give a situation and you have to guess the answer...kind of like that show you were talking about Killa....if I find one, I'll post most of the story....they can kill time and are real fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Well, aside from the fact that you replied to a partial quote, you're still wrong. You cannot tell me that if an ump feels like he made a mistake earlier in the game that he will not subconsciously make up for it later in the game if the opportunity presents itself. If you disagree, that's fine - but I feel you would be wrong to do so. Assuming they aren't already biased, as I already said before, they will call it right down the middle as best they can. But if there are a few toughies, they're basically going to even out. The ump makes a judgement call, and unless he's rooting for 1 team over the other, he will do his best to make sure the "tough calls" get divided up evenly -- they say they "call em as they see em", but they're only human. Let's respond to your whole quote then........ You say "he will do his bestto make sure the tough calls get divided up evenly". That statement in itself eliminates the idea of subconscious evening up, which is the point you just tried to make. However, "making sure" does not equal the subconscious mind doing anything. It refers to conscious decisions. This argument is pointless, because until you have ever been on a field and umpired a real baseball game at a reasonably high level, then you cannot know what goes on in the mind of the umpire. Believe me or not, but evening up does not occur intentionally. Sure the subconscious affects decisions and judgement. That is human. Sometimes an infielder makes a nearly impossible play and mentally the umpire is thinking base hit. He throws out the runner by a hair and the umpire calls him safe. That is missed call and happens because subconsciously he had already decided the play. Those things happen from time to time, but not very often. Umpires would not be at that level if they could minimize instances where they make the wrong call, whether subconsciously driven or not. I'll repeat, when a ball is hit, the umpire focuses on seeing and hearing what he is supposed to and he does not notice the uniform of the players involved. Think what you want, but I umpired for 9 years, several at the D-I and D-II collegiate level and never did I even up. If you screw up, you eat it and move on to get the next one right. The TV commentators or players that speak of "make-up calls" are guys who have never walked in an umpires shoes, plain and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supernuke Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 I allways just figured that the tie goes to the runner was just some bulls*** expression that announcers used just so they could be saying something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 I allways just figured that the tie goes to the runner was just some bulls*** expression that announcers used just so they could be saying something. It's just one of those things you hear beginning in LL. One of my other favorites is when you hear coaches and dads yelling at the batter to "get his elbow up", which is exactly the wrong thing to do. What they should be saying is get your elbows down and your hands up. No relevance here, just one of those things you always here that happens to be incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
method Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 a player is hit while swinging it is a dead ball and a strike This is one rule that i see the umps most f*** up. Guys start swinging get hit... and take there base... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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