Soxplosion Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Well, today in my study block we were having some insane political discussion. Most of the people pretty much had no idea what they was talking bout and most of the conversation was between the teacher and this one junior whos really smart but had some really crazy ideas. At one point the student brought up the fact that someday the American "empire" would fall. He wasnt anti-American or anything but he just said what he thought. Now if you know me at all youll know I was probably never with him, which I wasnt. He said that America would fall just like any mpire of the past, Rome, Greece, Napoleon etc. I wasnt about to jump in since everybody would tell me to f-off because if you didnt agree with them thats basically what ya got. But heres what I thought. I think America is different from Greece and all the past empires that were believed in their prime to have been undestructible. We have one thing they didnt have, domestic stability. In Rome, Brutus a senator killed Caesar. In Napoleonic France people were working the entire time to get Napoleon out. Ever since the Civil War (which was more the South wanting to make their own country and not destroy ours) we havent had any real domestic turmoil. Ok, so weve had assassinations but also in Rome you read of coups and civil wars between dictators. Weve never had any of that. And we have much more security. In Napoleonic France a grand alliance from Prussia, Austria-Hungary Britain and Russia came to throw Napoleon out. They had to cross borders, and thats it, little imaginary lines people came up with many moons ago. To get here, they would have to cross the Pacific or Atlantic Oceans and then they would have to face an army that was much bigger than even Nappys. Unless the attacking country is Mexico or Canada, but were pretty good friends with both of them. So the only danger comes from the inside. You could argue that terrorists could do such a thing. But would America sit back and watch terrorists take over the country? No. They would be eliminated in the blink of an eye. Thats another problem with these countries. Some schmuck overthrows the government and everyone sits back and praises him. That wont happen in this country, especially since no ones ever overthrown the government, or tried it for that matter. Well, there could be other points that Im missing but thats my opinion. What do you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Ok, so weve had assassinations but also in Rome you read of coups and civil wars between dictators. Weve never had any of that. Well, I'm going out on a limb here, if you believe the Oliver Stone/Jim Garrison take on the Kennedy Assassination, that would be a coup. It will be interesting to see in something like 2025 (since most collaborators and actors involved in the Kennedy Assassination will probably be dead) what the government knew/knows and is not telling the American people as to date. Additionally, will the government release ALL of the documents/films that the CIA currently has? As far as the American Empire eventually falling? I do not think it will happen from within. Remember how the nation reacted on 09/11? Imagine an invading force trying to occupy this country or..... for that matter..... imagine a force from within trying to take everything we have as Americans away. Citizens would become soldiers. Vigilantism would be the word of the day. If the American Empire does fall it will be because of forces from the outside and, IMHO, the attack type would have to be nuclear. When/if America retaliates in the same way, nuclear holocaust will ensue and there will be no Empire..... anywhere..... left to save. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 The fall of the U.S. embire will occur, but not near any of our life times. On your point of the U.S. is more stable than them, I disagree, you population split about 25% right 25% left and 50 that didn't care enough to vote that isn't the most united there is. If the U.S. is to fall in our lifetime I can only think of 2 ways that aren't a giant meteor or something like that. I think this question has come up before and I gave the same answear. A war against China would be very difficult. If the U.S. captured 1000000 Chinese on the first day,2nd,3rd,4th,5th the sixth they would have to look at surrender. Maybe not that fine a time line but you understand the theme, to kill that many people would be equally cumbersome. I'm sure tactical neutron stikes would that millions at a time, but 1.5 billion is a good deal to overcome. 2nd manmade possibility in our lifetime is a nuclear strike perpitrated by anyone on a city like Tel Aviv, the Irealies would not wait for an American response they would lauch their own nukes on the half hour, and the fallout from all that would follow would be unthinkable. Your life would not have anything to do with U.S. empire any longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted March 6, 2003 Author Share Posted March 6, 2003 Well first off, youll have to explain this Oliver Stone theory because I have no idea what that is. But when I think a coup, I think of like radicals taking over a government by force. Kennedy was murdered but the same government stayed, just with a new leader. So explain this theory and Ill tell ya what I think of it. And as for the rest, I think youre totally right. When terrorists tried to split us apart, we united. If terrorists tried to take over the country, everyone would fight. Not to mention the fact that we are the strongest military country on the planet, that probably wont happen. And invading such a huge country with such a strong military and patriotic people that would be impossible. So youd have to do it in the blink of an eye. That is possible but youre not gonna plant enough nukes to destroy such a country simultaneously. And while youre setting up the following attacks wed strike back. I dont think well nuke someone first but we will use em in return. So I think the death of America would be the death of the planet. It would be like the Sum of All Fears but there would be no Jack Ryan to save the planet. It would just go on until every cities gone and everyones dead. So, I dont think anyone will ever use nukes. And as long as we have any nukes we better have a lot of nukes because that abundance is what stops everyone from using them. Other countries think, we could nuke them but then theyd nuke us back with bigger and stronger nukes. So lets not use ours and they wont use theirs. So Id say a nuclear war is out of the question. Some people may be crazy but they arent dumb. I think its going to be very hard to find a way to pull this country down anytime soon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Well first off, youll have to explain this Oliver Stone theory because I have no idea what that is. But when I think a coup, I think of like radicals taking over a government by force. Kennedy was murdered but the same government stayed, just with a new leader. So explain this theory and Ill tell ya what I think of it. Rent the movie "JFK" with Kevin Costner..... Stone/Garrison's theory will be explained for you there. And true, a democratic government stayed, but a goverment that (according to Stone/Garrison) was a complete 180 from Kennedy took over. That, IMHO, is a coup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted March 6, 2003 Author Share Posted March 6, 2003 The fall of the U.S. embire will occur, but not near any of our life times. On your point of the U.S. is more stable than them, I disagree, you population split about 25% right 25% left and 50 that didn't care enough to vote that isn't the most united there is. If the U.S. is to fall in our lifetime I can only think of 2 ways that aren't a giant meteor or something like that. I think this question has come up before and I gave the same answear. A war against China would be very difficult. If the U.S. captured 1000000 Chinese on the first day,2nd,3rd,4th,5th the sixth they would have to look at surrender. Maybe not that fine a time line but you understand the theme, to kill that many people would be equally cumbersome. I'm sure tactical neutron stikes would that millions at a time, but 1.5 billion is a good deal to overcome. 2nd manmade possibility in our lifetime is a nuclear strike perpitrated by anyone on a city like Tel Aviv, the Irealies would not wait for an American response they would lauch their own nukes on the half hour, and the fallout from all that would follow would be unthinkable. Your life would not have anything to do with U.S. empire any longer. Umm, maybe I missing the point but isnt Israel our ally? Why would they nuke us just because some terrorist nuked them? And the war against China, like I said, wont happen because China doesnt have foreign military strength like we do and theyd have to cross the Pacific to get here. Everywhere on the planet you will find American military bases and ships and the like but you wont find China with any of that. And I do believe China has a bigger military but does that mean they have a better military? Not at all. First of all, we have foreign military. We can mobilize pretty quick against any country in the world, but can China? No, they cant. And I believe China has mandatory service for most people. So yeah, we could get bigger than them by telling everyone to get off the sofa and go fight but do you really think that giving some lab geek a gun is gonna help us? No. We train our men and women to fight and they know how to fight. Not to mention we have planes and bombs and ships and subs. Just because they have a larger military doesnt mean they have a better military... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 Umm, maybe I missing the point but isnt Israel our ally? Why would they nuke us just because some terrorist nuked them? Israel wouldn't..... but any ally of a country nuked by Israel, that has nuclear capabilities, may. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted March 6, 2003 Author Share Posted March 6, 2003 Well first off, youll have to explain this Oliver Stone theory because I have no idea what that is. But when I think a coup, I think of like radicals taking over a government by force. Kennedy was murdered but the same government stayed, just with a new leader. So explain this theory and Ill tell ya what I think of it. Rent the movie "JFK" with Kevin Costner..... Stone/Garrison's theory will be explained for you there. And true, a democratic government stayed, but a goverment that (according to Stone/Garrison) was a complete 180 from Kennedy took over. That, IMHO, is a coup. Thats a good point cubkilla. But it kept the country a democracy. In other modern countries you read about radicals overthrowing democracy and making a brutal dictatorship and then the old army starts to fight and it leads to civil war and all hell breaks loose. You have a goodpoint ck but technically they stayed the same. Different ideas but they kept the things that form our country, like the bill of rights, the constitution and everything. These other coups throw out everything their country stands for. The JFK assassination however did not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted March 6, 2003 Author Share Posted March 6, 2003 Umm, maybe I missing the point but isnt Israel our ally? Why would they nuke us just because some terrorist nuked them? Israel wouldn't..... but any ally of a country nuked by Israel, that has nuclear capabilities, may. Yeah, I think Matt just made a typo. Now I getcha. But like I said everyones fear of nukes will hopefully and probably stop anyne from using them because they know theyd get nuked back. Or if they nuke a country with non-nuclear capabilities the UN and civilized world would punish them severely... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Posted March 6, 2003 Share Posted March 6, 2003 I never said China was a better military, but again I ask how do you fight a war against such a nation, and the others that would join them? You can't take hostages because they would be to great a burden on your country, you can't nesscessarily slaughter them all with subs and tanks and planes. Capturing or killing 1 million people a day would not be sustainable for the U.S. With regards to my Israeli post there was no typo, I mean if they were hit they would not let their ally America retaliate for them, in a calculated perhaps less globally damaging way, they themselves would retaliate swiftly and would quickly further the destruction of the planet as you know it. Further I reiterate that I don't see the fall of the American empire for quite some time, but these are the only 2 scenarios I can see from todays world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted March 7, 2003 Author Share Posted March 7, 2003 Ah, now I understand. But I really hope Israel is a little smarter than that. I hope if such a thing happens they respond with some intelligence, and not just brute force... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 well chirac and france seems to think they can knock us down a notch or two i think when the US finally does collapse it will be from economic failure and not from war...and when we go under if the world ecomony was the same as it is now a whole lot of other countries would go with us...kind of scary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 The fall of the U.S. embire will occur, but not near any of our life times. On your point of the U.S. is more stable than them, I disagree, you population split about 25% right 25% left and 50 that didn't care enough to vote that isn't the most united there is. If the U.S. is to fall in our lifetime I can only think of 2 ways that aren't a giant meteor or something like that. I think this question has come up before and I gave the same answear. A war against China would be very difficult. If the U.S. captured 1000000 Chinese on the first day,2nd,3rd,4th,5th the sixth they would have to look at surrender. Maybe not that fine a time line but you understand the theme, to kill that many people would be equally cumbersome. I'm sure tactical neutron stikes would that millions at a time, but 1.5 billion is a good deal to overcome. 2nd manmade possibility in our lifetime is a nuclear strike perpitrated by anyone on a city like Tel Aviv, the Irealies would not wait for an American response they would lauch their own nukes on the half hour, and the fallout from all that would follow would be unthinkable. Your life would not have anything to do with U.S. empire any longer. Umm, maybe I missing the point but isnt Israel our ally? Why would they nuke us just because some terrorist nuked them? And the war against China, like I said, wont happen because China doesnt have foreign military strength like we do and theyd have to cross the Pacific to get here. Everywhere on the planet you will find American military bases and ships and the like but you wont find China with any of that. And I do believe China has a bigger military but does that mean they have a better military? Not at all. First of all, we have foreign military. We can mobilize pretty quick against any country in the world, but can China? No, they cant. And I believe China has mandatory service for most people. So yeah, we could get bigger than them by telling everyone to get off the sofa and go fight but do you really think that giving some lab geek a gun is gonna help us? No. We train our men and women to fight and they know how to fight. Not to mention we have planes and bombs and ships and subs. Just because they have a larger military doesnt mean they have a better military... China is a communist country, right? Cuba is a communist country, right? You don't think Cuba could give us trouble for a time period long enough to get China across the Pacific? Cuba is only like 90 miles away or so....if China were to contact Cuba and get some nuclear weapons there....we'd be in deep s***. It'd be Cold War 2. The only thing that really scares me about going to war is nuclear warfare...that scares the s*** out of me. Japan was devastated after two atom bombs....and if some crazy ass country just decided to come nuke the s*** out of us....we'd be dicked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted March 7, 2003 Author Share Posted March 7, 2003 Yeah, baggs, those French people can never win a war and now theyre getting real provocative over there with the most powerful country on the planet. Chirac isnt very bright allying himself with Saddam. But I do believe hes smart enough to not intervene militaryily because thats almost certain death. Also, do you remember the story I told you on chisox.com to prove there were some good French people about the guy who brought in flowers after Sept 11 and dedicated them to Washington and New York? Its on a political thread brisox started and I said the guy was French. Forget that, I reread the story today and he was German. So I guess youre right about the French... And wsf, if anybody starts using nukes, the world is dicked. It is that which stops them from using nukes and nothing else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 The fall of the U.S. embire will occur, but not near any of our life times. On your point of the U.S. is more stable than them, I disagree, you population split about 25% right 25% left and 50 that didn't care enough to vote that isn't the most united there is. If the U.S. is to fall in our lifetime I can only think of 2 ways that aren't a giant meteor or something like that. I think this question has come up before and I gave the same answear. A war against China would be very difficult. If the U.S. captured 1000000 Chinese on the first day,2nd,3rd,4th,5th the sixth they would have to look at surrender. Maybe not that fine a time line but you understand the theme, to kill that many people would be equally cumbersome. I'm sure tactical neutron stikes would that millions at a time, but 1.5 billion is a good deal to overcome. 2nd manmade possibility in our lifetime is a nuclear strike perpitrated by anyone on a city like Tel Aviv, the Irealies would not wait for an American response they would lauch their own nukes on the half hour, and the fallout from all that would follow would be unthinkable. Your life would not have anything to do with U.S. empire any longer. Umm, maybe I missing the point but isnt Israel our ally? Why would they nuke us just because some terrorist nuked them? And the war against China, like I said, wont happen because China doesnt have foreign military strength like we do and theyd have to cross the Pacific to get here. Everywhere on the planet you will find American military bases and ships and the like but you wont find China with any of that. And I do believe China has a bigger military but does that mean they have a better military? Not at all. First of all, we have foreign military. We can mobilize pretty quick against any country in the world, but can China? No, they cant. And I believe China has mandatory service for most people. So yeah, we could get bigger than them by telling everyone to get off the sofa and go fight but do you really think that giving some lab geek a gun is gonna help us? No. We train our men and women to fight and they know how to fight. Not to mention we have planes and bombs and ships and subs. Just because they have a larger military doesnt mean they have a better military... China is a communist country, right? Cuba is a communist country, right? You don't think Cuba could give us trouble for a time period long enough to get China across the Pacific? Cuba is only like 90 miles away or so....if China were to contact Cuba and get some nuclear weapons there....we'd be in deep s***. It'd be Cold War 2. The only thing that really scares me about going to war is nuclear warfare...that scares the s*** out of me. Japan was devastated after two atom bombs....and if some crazy ass country just decided to come nuke the s*** out of us....we'd be dicked. thats why i think we shouldnt give up on a star wars type technology..and it would be great if could combine it with not only the capabilities to intercept incoming nukes but also a way to render them inoperative...instead of all this disarmorment talk maybe we should concentrate on just making them obsolete??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 thats why i think we shouldnt give up on a star wars type technology..and it would be great if could combine it with not only the capabilities to intercept incoming nukes but also a way to render them inoperative...instead of all this disarmorment talk maybe we should concentrate on just making them obsolete??? Raytheon was just on our campus for a job fair. We had a fun time asking them how they could spend $100 million for star wars and have the tests fail horribly every time unless they created the missile they wanted to track. The only way it works is if we make the missile and put a homing device in it. Also, 8 Nobel prize winning scientists and physicists have come out saying that Star Wars is an impossibility and won't work. It is a waste of American money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Israel wouldn't..... but any ally of a country nuked by Israel, that has nuclear capabilities, may. Israel has stated that if they feel like they are going to be overrun, they will not hesitate to detonate nuclear devices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 JFK. Well first off, youll have to explain this Oliver Stone theory because I have no idea what that is. But when I think a coup, I think of like radicals taking over a government by force. Kennedy was murdered but the same government stayed, just with a new leader. So explain this theory and Ill tell ya what I think of it. Rent the movie "JFK" with Kevin Costner..... Stone/Garrison's theory will be explained for you there. And true, a democratic government stayed, but a goverment that (according to Stone/Garrison) was a complete 180 from Kennedy took over. That, IMHO, is a coup. I don't want to start a fight with you, but please please do not place the slightest bit of credence in Oliver Stone and his fantasy movie JFK. Garrisson was a complete nut job. Clay Shaw was acquited by a jury in something like 45 minutes. Most conspiracy theories when examined in depth vis a vis JFK just do not stand up to the light of day. Louisiana has a history of cuckoo politics. From Huey Long to Edwin Edwards to David Duke to yes Jim Garrisson. There are still a number of questions to be answered for me concerning this event in our history. I read Garrisson, Lane, Meagher and perhaps the greatest conspiracy theorist of them all Harold Weisberg. None of them made 1% as much sense as Gerald Posner did in his book Case Closed. This was an awful traumatic event in US history and it took me about twenty years before I could look at it in an objective manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Have you read "Murder In Dealey Plaza"? It is a very interesting read by various experts in the field of the JFK assassination and discusses the inconsistancies of Oswald being the killer. It's some pretty good stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 thats why i think we shouldnt give up on a star wars type technology..and it would be great if could combine it with not only the capabilities to intercept incoming nukes but also a way to render them inoperative...instead of all this disarmorment talk maybe we should concentrate on just making them obsolete??? Raytheon was just on our campus for a job fair. We had a fun time asking them how they could spend $100 million for star wars and have the tests fail horribly every time unless they created the missile they wanted to track. The only way it works is if we make the missile and put a homing device in it. Also, 8 Nobel prize winning scientists and physicists have come out saying that Star Wars is an impossibility and won't work. It is a waste of American money. i dont carehow big a failure star wars was....how many people said prior top 1969 that we would never place a man on the moon???..technology is growing at a pace like never before...all those failures could easily be fixed with some new technology down the road...wouldnt it be great if we could develop a defense system that would render all nukes worthless???..because star wars failed years ago is no reason to give up on the premise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Have you read "Murder In Dealey Plaza"? It is a very interesting read by various experts in the field of the JFK assassination and discusses the inconsistancies of Oswald being the killer. It's some pretty good stuff. Thanks for pointing out that book. I give you credit, you must do a lot of reading. I checked out that book, been down that road and don't care to go back. I've answered the "Who Killed JFK?" for myself as well as I'm ever going to in this life I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 thats why i think we shouldnt give up on a star wars type technology..and it would be great if could combine it with not only the capabilities to intercept incoming nukes but also a way to render them inoperative...instead of all this disarmorment talk maybe we should concentrate on just making them obsolete??? One word: physics Another word: aerodynamics Look them up. Star Wars/Shield is WORTHLESS and IMPOSSIBLE, not to mention it's cost: BILLIONS upon BILLIONS...Stopping one nuke is not that difficult IF you know the location from which it was fired and have about 20-30 minutes for detection, calculations, approval and track-intercepting, or in the event that you plain get LUCKY with timing, something you obvisously can't count on all the time...;stopping hundreds of dummy ones PLUS hundreds of REAl nukes (Russia, China attack would have plenty of both) in an all-out nuclear war is all but...well, they haven't invented a word that would express the correct degree of futility and doom. Let's just say, White Sox won't be taking the diamond that summer... all those failures could easily be fixed with some new technology down the road...wouldnt it be great if we could develop a defense system that would render all nukes worthless???..because star wars failed years ago is no reason to give up on the premise Baggio, you know your baseball, I'll give you that. Alas, on THIS particular issue, you sound like a 7yo with a wild imagination and years of cartoon-watching under his belt. Your optimism/day-dreaming is enviable, but REALITY has something to say about it, too, and it doesn;t look good. Therefore DIMPLOMACY is the only thing that can and HAS saved this planet at this point. That and battling insane lone-wolf tyrants so they could never develop WMD in the first place. John Waynism of "go right ahead, throw at us everything you got!" is beyond INSANE in a nuclear age. All this talk about French being p*ssies, but the fact of thw matter is if they really wanted to annihilate US, all they would have to do is launch 30-40 nukes and WE BE HISTORY even if only half of them hit. (They would be too, but that another story. Besdies, I would imagine it wouldn't be much of a consolation to you to know tha people who vaporised you, your family and friends and their families have also been erased, would it?) ETA: I remember myself 6 years ago arguing YOUR case with my older, much better educated brother to the point of swinging for his head, spit flying out of my mouth. Needless to say, I have been enlightened since Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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