Wilder: "They wanted Borchard"

[aboz56]

Exactly. Borchard "missed time." Then he came back. Reed has been playing "injured." That's two different things. Nice try.

Why even bother arguing, Jeremy Reed is GONE.

 

Go talk about his sabermetric value with Mariner fans if you're going to be a smartass about it. Maybe you could even ask Billy Beane what he thinks, since he's won so many world titles with sabermetrics.

[SoxAce]

Why even bother arguing, Jeremy Reed is GONE.

 

Go talk about his sabermetric value with Mariner fans if you're going to be a smartass about it..

Ok then. Reed is gone. I'll let him show his results on the field in a major league uni. And noone is being a smartass here. If you don't like someone else's opinion, dont respond to it.

[BrandoFan]

There are just too many IF's at this point and NONE of you know who projects to be what player (and when!) in the bigs.

 

-Reed's wrist problem may be chronic or it might not be.

-Borchard may stop being a headcase one day, or more likely he won't.

-Reed could become a poor man's Podsednik on the pads, Mark Kotsay in the field and Will Clark at the plate. Realistically? Prolly neither.

-Borchard might put up Adam Dunn's numbers - or Russell Branyon's....At AAA.

 

I'll say this: Sox need a .400 OBP contact hitter with speed in the 2-hole more than they do a .500-slugging free swinger with average (baserunning) speed in the 7-hole.

 

I guess we'll see.

[aboz56]

There are just to many IF's at this point and NONE of you know who projects to be what player (and when!)  in the bigs.

 

Reed's wrist problem may be chronic or it might not be. 

Borchard may stop being a headcase one day, or more likely he won't.

Reed could become a poor man's Podsednik on the pads, Mark Kotsay defensively  and Will Clark at the plate.  Prolly neither.

Borchard might put up Dunn's numbers - or Russell Branyon's....At AAA.

 

I'll say this:  Sox need a .400 OBP contact hitter with speed in the 2-hole more than they do a .500-slugging free swinger with average (baserunning) speed in the 7-hole.

 

I guess we'll see.

You are right on all counts.

 

Which I didn't even ask for an argument, all I said is that I am glad we kept Borchard over Reed and then got flack for saying so.

 

At this point, neither guy has done a damn thing at the big league level, including Jesus Reed or "Bust" Borchard, so we can revisit this argument in 3 years when Reed has won his 3rd straight batting title and Borchard is the quarterbacks coach at Stanford.... Everyone happy now?

[Kalapse]

DAMN, lets calm down now. PEACE not WAR.

[Cerbaho-WG]

Why even bother arguing, Jeremy Reed is GONE.

 

Go talk about his sabermetric value with Mariner fans if you're going to be a smartass about it.  Maybe you could even ask Billy Beane what he thinks, since he's won so many world titles with sabermetrics.

Hey at least Billy Beane managed to consistently reach the post season with sabermetrics. With the payroll limitations he has, Billy Beane is far and away the best GM in baseball.

[SoxAce]

At this point, neither guy has done a damn thing at the big league level

Yep your right about that...

 

Reed's #'s in MLB

AB-0 H-0 2B-0 3B-0 HR-0 RBI-0 BB-0 SO-0 SB-0 CS-0

 

Not a damn thing...

 

Borchard's #'s in MLB

AB-85 H-17 2B-1 3B-0 HR-3 RBI-10 BB-6 SO-32 SB-0 CS-1

 

Not a damn thing...

 

 

 

Sorry boz just want to throw that in there..

[Rowand44]

Hey at least Billy Beane managed to consistently reach the post season with sabermetrics. With the payroll limitations he has, Billy Beane is far and away the best GM in baseball.

I'm tired of all this billy beane praising. Beane is a good gm but he's overrated if you ask me. His sabermatics bulls*** didn't get him anywhere. What got him places is that he has good minor league people working with him in their drafts. It's mulder, hudson, and zito that have got the a's to the playoffs every single year and those guys aren't their soley because of billy beane. To him obp is the only stat that means anything and their offense always seems to be a problem every year. OBP is obviously a huge stat but it's not the only stat that matters.

[Cerbaho-WG]

I'm tired of all this billy beane praising.  Beane is a good gm but he's overrated if you ask me.  His sabermatics bulls*** didn't get him anywhere.  What got him places is that he has good minor league people working with him in their drafts.  It's mulder, hudson, and zito that have got the a's to the playoffs every single year and those guys aren't their soley because of billy beane.  To him obp is the only stat that means anything and their offense always seems to be a problem every year.  OBP is obviously a huge stat but it's not the only stat that matters.

OBP is the only stat that matters?

 

Your opinion flew out the window right there; that's just an ignorant assumption to say the least. Just plain idiotic.

[ZoomSlowik]

If I were to get rid of either Borchard or Reed, I would get rid of Reed. I've been reading some scouting reports, and he sounds like an overhyped player to me. Most of them say he doesn't have great range or a strong arm, or blazing speed despite his stolen base numbers. The rankings have basically been based on one season. No matter how well he hit, you can't judge based on just one season. You also can't assume he will hit over .300 because he did it in AA. He's around .270 at AAA and hit about .240 in spring training. That doesn't sound like someone I have to have start in RF if Maggs goes. The player most brought up as a comparison is Mark Kotsay, and I'm not exactly clamoring for the Sox to get him. Borchard still has a couple of years to figure it out before he can be labeled a total bust. Besides, it's not like Reed is much younger.

[AngelasDaddy0427]

I agree with zoom...

Borchard is just a better player, End of story....

[CWSGuy406]

If I were to get rid of either Borchard or Reed, I would get rid of Reed. I've been reading some scouting reports, and he sounds like an overhyped player to me. Most of them say he doesn't have great range or a strong arm, or blazing speed despite his stolen base numbers. The rankings have basically been based on one season. No matter how well he hit, you can't judge based on just one season. You also can't assume he will hit over .300 because he did it in AA. He's around .270 at AAA and hit about .240 in spring training. That doesn't sound like someone I have to have start in RF if Maggs goes. The player most brought up as a comparison is Mark Kotsay, and I'm not exactly clamoring for the Sox to get him. Borchard still has a couple of years to figure it out before he can be labeled a total bust. Besides, it's not like Reed is much younger.

Meh - I'm kind of in the middle on the argument, but your theory/thoughts don't hold.

 

First - I hate it when people say that Reed was overhyped. He hit .400 in a pitchers park. That is amazing, IMO. And this year, struggling with two bad wrists, he still managed to put up a .270 average with a .350+ OBP.

 

Next - no, Reed doesn't have blazing speed or gold glove defense. But he's an above average outfielder, with a servicable arm, and maybe not great speed, but great on-base instincts. IMHO, stealing a base isn't about speed. It's about quickness and eye-legs coordination (i.e. getting a good jump) and being smart about the pitcher (knowing his pickoff move).

 

Like I said - Reed has two ailing wrists yet is putting up very solid numbers, equal to and better than (in some categories) Borchard.

 

Reed is putting up about equal numbers to Borchard, yet is what, two, three years younger? That is much younger, in terms of developement.

 

No, Reed probably won't be the star that Borchard 'has the potential' to be (I put that in quotes because I think Borchard has talent to get there, but probably won't.) . But he was EXACTLY what this team needed - a table setter who, when he's not hot with the bat, could still draw a walk and get on for people like Frank, Lee, Konerko, etc etc. Plus, IMO, Reed was a one-of-a-kind player. Anderson is more like Borchard than he is like Reed.

[CWSGuy406]

I agree with zoom...

Borchard is just a better player, End of story....

Jeckle, do you care to back that up with anything? Absolutely anything at all? :dips*** :headshake

[SoxAce]

If I were to get rid of either Borchard or Reed, I would get rid of Reed. I've been reading some scouting reports, and he sounds like an overhyped player to me. Most of them say he doesn't have great range or a strong arm, or blazing speed despite his stolen base numbers. The rankings have basically been based on one season. No matter how well he hit, you can't judge based on just one season. You also can't assume he will hit over .300 because he did it in AA. He's around .270 at AAA and hit about .240 in spring training. That doesn't sound like someone I have to have start in RF if Maggs goes. The player most brought up as a comparison is Mark Kotsay, and I'm not exactly clamoring for the Sox to get him. Borchard still has a couple of years to figure it out before he can be labeled a total bust. Besides, it's not like Reed is much younger.

Well, some of what you said is correct, but I don't want to go into theory because I'll probably overtype and blow your arguement into the river.. but I'll say when you said Reed isn't THAT much younger.. Borch=25 (turning 26 soon) Reed=23 (just turned 23) There you go..

[AngelasDaddy0427]

Jeckle, do you care to back that up with anything?  Absolutely anything at all? :dips***  :headshake

I could back it up but it would just be exactly what zoom said...

[ZoomSlowik]

Reed did have a great year last year, but it is still only one season of performance. His value is at an all-time high. Before last year's performance he wasn't really on the radar as a top level prospect. I'm always leery about guys that aren't particularly "toolsy" that do well at the minor league level. The fact that he isn't a blazing runner is probably going to make his stolen bases drop because of better catchers throwing, and will probably rob him of some hits and extra bases. It's been said that he is ideally not a centerfielder, and he doesn't have a ton of power. As a corner outfielder, he doesn't seem to have as much appeal. To me, he appears to be a left handed Aaron Rowand. And Anderson is not that much like Borchard. Anderson is clearly a centerfielder, which seperates him from Reed and Borchard. He can run and has a solid arm. He also doesn't have the same power potential as Borchard. He was hitting .300 basically the whole time at A ball with some decent power and stolen bases, and is off to a solid start in AA. He didn't strike out a huge amount of times either. It does seem like he needs to work on walks though. He's a much more physically gifted player, which is why he was a first round pick. In 2-3 years, he looks like he is going to be one hell of a player. I don't really see the same potential in Reed or Borchard.

[BrandoFan]

No, Reed probably won't be the star that Borchard 'has the potential' to be (I put that in quotes because I think Borchard has talent to get there, but probably won't.) .

Who said Borchard has a super-star talent?

 

-His batspeed and hand-eye coordination are nothing special.

-Neither his pitch recognition, nor his SZ management are of "superstar" quality.

-He lacks nerves of steel of Olerud, Edgar, Boggs, etc.

-He has above average straight-line speed, but is only an average base-runner.

-His range is nothing special and his arm is good but overrated.

-At just 25yo, already can't play a week without a nagging injury paying him a visit.

 

Yes, he is very strong. But so are a lot of people working in any given construction site.

 

Joe should seriously start putting it ALL together RIGHT NOW - physically AND mentally.

 

Otherwise....what's the EDGE, what's that SOMETHING that will allow him to succeed where 90+ % of ML'ers fail and become that star everyone wants him to be?

 

Tell me.

[CWSGuy406]

I could back it up but it would just be exactly what zoom said...

Jeckle - I've yet to say one insightful post on this board from you. Just a bunch of knee-jerk reactions and jumping on/off the bandwagon.

[DBAHO]

It's quite simple, Jeremy Reed will be a GREAT everyday player, Joe Borchard COULD be better than that. He's got a much higher risk, but there's the chance of a greater return with Joe. KW, Wilder and Co. have taken a chance with Borchard, because they know we have ample depth in the minors with Sweeney and Anderson to come up if Borch doesn't work out.

[CWSGuy406]

Reed did have a great year last year, but it is still only one season of performance. His value is at an all-time high. Before last year's performance he wasn't really on the radar as a top level prospect. I'm always leery about guys that aren't particularly "toolsy" that do well at the minor league level. The fact that he isn't a blazing runner is probably going to make his stolen bases drop because of better catchers throwing, and will probably rob him of some hits and extra bases. It's been said that he is ideally not a centerfielder, and he doesn't have a ton of power. As a corner outfielder, he doesn't seem to have as much appeal. To me, he appears to be a left handed Aaron Rowand. And Anderson is not that much like Borchard. Anderson is clearly a centerfielder, which seperates him from Reed and Borchard. He can run and has a solid arm. He also doesn't have the same power potential as Borchard. He was hitting .300 basically the whole time at A ball with some decent power and stolen bases, and is off to a solid start in AA. He didn't strike out a huge amount of times either. It does seem like he needs to work on walks though. He's a much more physically gifted player, which is why he was a first round pick. In 2-3 years, he looks like he is going to be one hell of a player. I don't really see the same potential in Reed or Borchard.

Reed is definitely not the left-handed version of Aaron Rowand, I can tell you that. Ehh - tools do nothing for me. Baseball isn't a game about who can run the fastest, throw the hardest, bench the most. It's more mental than physical, well, IMO.

 

I just don't understand the lovefest for Borchard. I mean, people say that he's doing great at Charlotte, yet he's only hitting right around .270. I love the guy - I think he can be awesome. But .270 at the bandbox at Charlotte?

 

Once again, leaving the argument of 'he's got the tools' out of it, why do you think Borchard is going to be one hell of a pick?

[ZoomSlowik]

What I was saying is that Reed is not some high-school phenom that is so much more advanced than Borchard. Yes, 2 years does matter, but if he bounces between the minors and the majors for a year or two and can't figure out how to hit major leaguers, he is in the same place as Borchard, only without the power. For all this talk about Reed walking a ton, he has one more walk than Anderson, plus more guys are going to consistently throw strikes in the majors. So far, both have done nothing, and I am more inclinded to believe Reed's ST and AAA performance than what he did in Birmingham.

[Rowand44]

It's quite simple, Jeremy Reed will be a GREAT everyday player, Joe Borchard COULD be better than that. He's got a much higher risk, but there's the chance of a greater return with Joe. KW, Wilder and Co. have taken a chance with Borchard, because they know we have ample depth in the minors with Sweeney and Anderson to come up if Borch doesn't work out.

Well put dbaho. That's probably the best way you can explain this scenario.

[Old Socks]

IMO Reed is a much better player and prospect for stardom. So what. Just an opinion. All you guys are talking as if Kenny had his choice on who to give up, Reed or Borchard. Where do you get that info. I bet Seattle said Reed or no deal.

 

The Sox will give JB one more chance, and he will probably strike out 40% of the time, and Seattle will bring up Reed and he will hit. Don't you think Seattle scouted both of them. They had the negoiating hammer, not Kenny. They made their choice and got it.

[ZoomSlowik]

I was referring to Anderson looking like a hell of a player. Borchard is similar to Reed in a lot of ways, except Borchard has more power and Reed will hit for a better average. I personally don't see either one making a major impact at the MLB level. Reed looks like he will be a decent but not great everyday player on a decent or weaker team, and a 4th outfielder on a really good one, so I'm not all broken up about trading him. You can find guys that will hit .260-280 and not do much else in a lot places.

[MnSoxFan]

I would have kept Reed, no question about it, damn.