Wilder: "They wanted Borchard"

[CWSGuy406]

What I was saying is that Reed is not some high-school phenom that is so much more advanced than Borchard. Yes, 2 years does matter, but if he bounces between the minors and the majors for a year or two and can't figure out how to hit major leaguers, he is in the same place as Borchard, only without the power. For all this talk about Reed walking a ton, he has one more walk than Anderson, plus more guys are going to consistently throw strikes in the majors. So far, both have done nothing, and I am more inclinded to believe Reed's ST and AAA performance than what he did in Birmingham.

But in most cases, a good batting eye translates better from minor league to major leagues than power. The difference between Reed and Borchard? Reed has it (the good batting/patience/whatever eye), Borchard doesn't. Borchard has improved upon it, but it's still not as good as Reed's.

 

And - what is wrong with Reed's AAA numbers? Like I said, he still had a higher OBP than Borchard did, and just about an equal average. Plus, two ailing wrists. So - if this is Jeremy Reed at his worst, I think that he is going to be, at worst, a solid major league ballplayer. Take it FWIW.

[CWSGuy406]

I was referring to Anderson looking like a hell of a player. Borchard is similar to Reed in a lot of ways, except Borchard has more power and Reed will hit for a better average. I personally don't see either one making a major impact at the MLB level. Reed looks like he will be a decent but not great everyday player on a decent or weaker team, and a 4th outfielder on a really good one, so I'm not all broken up about trading him. You can find guys that will hit .260-280 and not do much else in a lot places.

The difference about Reed hitting .260-.280 and Borchard hitting .260-.280 is that Reed's OBP will be at the very least, at .350, while Borchard will be, at best, .340.

 

And no, guys with plate discipline as good as Reed aren't a dime a dozen. If you find a player like that, congrats to your scouting depo.

[ZoomSlowik]

I see an awful lot of similarities between Reed and Rowand. Both were not top picks. Both stole bases in the minors without stellar speed, and Rowand has not run much in the majors. Neither are loaded with power, and both are decent contact hitters. Both are being forced into the centerfield position even though they are better suited for corner outfield spots. The only major difference I see is that Reed is a lefty, although I'll admit I don't have Rowand's minor league stats in front of me to compare their walk rates. By the way, saying Reed has better discipline than Borchard isn't saying a whole lot. I can stand there and take 4 pitches, that doesn't mean I am going to hit better than anyone. As for Reed being a much better hitter, if memory serves me right, Borchard was hitting .300 in AA, and we see how he can't hit for average. As of yet, Reed hasn't shown he can hit top level pitchers either. As an avid baseball fan, my guess is that Reed will basically end up as Randy Winn. If he ends up winning a batting title in 3 years, I give you permission to find me and say I told you so.

[danman31]

After reading all the arguing going on here there have been some good points from both sides.

 

Things I have not liked:

Reed's stolen base numbers will of course fall in the majors. Ever player will steal less bases in the majors. The minor league leaders in steals are going to have more than the major league leaders. Reed will be able to steal occasionally. The point is that he is faster than Borchard.

 

Don't use ST as anything. ST games are worthless in terms of judging guys. It's too hard to tell whether a guy that was doing crappy will stay crappy and a guy that is doing great will stay great.

 

Borchard is a very good power hitter. His major league average has not been mentioned/projected. IMO Borchard will have a s***ty average in the majors. Russ Branyan.

[BrandoFan]

Who said Borchard has a super-star talent?

 

-His batspeed and hand-eye coordination are nothing special.

-Neither his pitch recognition, nor his SZ management are of "superstar" quality.

-He lacks nerves of steel of Olerud, Edgar, Boggs, etc.

-He has above average straight-line speed, but is only an average base-runner.

-His range is nothing special and his arm is good but overrated.

-At just 25yo, already can't play a week without a nagging injury paying him a visit.

 

Yes, he is very strong. But so are a lot of people working in any given construction site.

 

Joe should seriously start putting it ALL together RIGHT NOW - physically AND mentally.

 

Otherwise....what's the EDGE, what's that SOMETHING that will allow him to succeed where 90+ % of ML'ers fail and become that star everyone wants him to be?

 

Tell me.

Great to see my question remain unanswered.

 

For all the talking up of Borchard and his "tools", nobody can build a case worth damn on why he will be anything CLOSE to a superstar OF'er in the majors.

[southsideirish]

   

 

This will come back and bite him in the ass for sure. Reed>Borchard and that's proven on numbers and performance alone.

May I ask what makes you so sure about this? Iam looking at Reed's numbers and there is nothing I would say is spectacular about him. He has zero power, average speed, and an average arm. I am sure you have not seen his performance except for during spring training when he was downright awful. He is Mark Kotsay in the waiting, which isn't saying very much at all.

 

I think Jow Borchard has a much higher upside than Reed and I for one am glad we chose to keep him over Reed.

 

As a prospect Borchard > Reed without any doubt. Good luck to Reed, he will need it.

[CWSGuy406]

May I ask what makes you so sure about this? Iam looking at Reed's numbers and there is nothing I would say is spectacular about him. He has zero power, average speed, and an average arm. I am sure you have not seen his performance except for during spring training when he was downright awful. He is Mark Kotsay in the waiting, which isn't saying very much at all.

 

I think Jow Borchard has a much higher upside than Reed and I for one am glad we chose to keep him over Reed.

 

As a prospect Borchard > Reed without any doubt. Good luck to Reed, he will need it.

See - that's just saying stupid things. Have you seen the kid play, and can tell me he has 'average' speed and an 'average' arm? Because I've heard above average in both catergories - nothing spectacular, but above average.

 

And if you have the numbers in front of you - what doesn't impress you about a .400 average in a pitchers park at AA? And hitting .270 with a .370 (IIRC) OBP at AAA battling TWO ailing wrists?

 

People say Borchard is a better prospect because he has 'tools'. Too many times have I heard that...

[SoxAce]

May I ask what makes you so sure about this? Iam looking at Reed's numbers and there is nothing I would say is spectacular about him. He has zero power, average speed, and an average arm. I am sure you have not seen his performance except for during spring training when he was downright awful. He is Mark Kotsay in the waiting, which isn't saying very much at all.

 

I think Jow Borchard has a much higher upside than Reed and I for one am glad we chose to keep him over Reed.

 

As a prospect Borchard > Reed without any doubt. Good luck to Reed, he will need it.

Read more in this thread about when I'm compaing the two and their numbers then you'll see.

[southsideirish]

Great to see my question remain unanswered.

 

For all the talking up of Borchard and his "tools", nobody can build a case worth damn on why he will be anything CLOSE to a superstar OF'er in the majors.

So this is saying that Joe doesn't have superstar talent in your eyes, but what exactly are those eyes? How often do you personally watch him play? If it is only when he gets a cup of coffee at the majors or in spring training then I don't see how that is a fair evaluation. 2nd I didn't know you were a scout to make such evaluations and ME thinks you are going on numbers alone instead of just watching him play in order to evaluate him correctly.

 

If the Mariners wanted Borchard instead of Reed that should say something right there.

 

Reed's upside is clearly not the same as Borchard's. That is clear to every scout, well I guess except for you. There is still plenty of time for him to succeed and become a star in this league. Podsednik and Nevin are two examples of that. I think the biggest tool Borchard has in his favor that no one else in our entire organization posesses is left handed power.

 

So where are Reed's tools and what will make him a superstar, because I have not seen one scout predict him to become the next superstar. The closest thing to a major league player that he has been compared to is Mark Kotsay. If we miss out on having the next Mark Kotsay then I will not be crying one tear for getting Freddy Garcia back in return.

[BrandoFan]

He has zero power, average speed, and an average arm..

Wait a minute....You were telling everyone just last week that Reed has

"no arm". Now it's average. I guess better late than never.

 

Zero power? He had a higher slugging % in the spacious AA park last year at 22 than Borchard did in a AAA bandbox at 25. Gap power invariably translates better to the ML level than the light-tower one does - if you're tardy on a ML heater and out in front of a ML breaking ball, your "power" is irrelevant.

 

Average speed? He is twice the runner Joe Borchard is.

[southsideirish]

Read more in this thread about when I'm compaing the two and their numbers then you'll see.

I have looked up the stats plenty of times. Reed is nothing more than a Mark Kotsay. WOOPDEEf***INGDOO!

[CWSGuy406]

I have looked up the stats plenty of times. Reed is nothing more than a Mark Kotsay. WOOPDEEf***INGDOO!

Hmm -

 

Then complete the equation:

 

Reed : Kotsay :: Borchard : _________?

[SoxAce]

I have looked up the stats plenty of times. Reed is nothing more than a Mark Kotsay. WOOPDEEf***INGDOO!

That's your opinion. I don't see how Borchard will be so great in your eyes. You want some stats here I'll show you some in a minute. Yea I'm sure you look at the stats soooo many times..

[southsideirish]

Wait a minute....You were telling everyone just last week that Reed has

"no arm".    Now it's average. I guess better late than never. 

 

Zero power? He had a higher slugging % in the spacious AA park last year at 22 than Borchard did in a AAA bandbox at 25.  Gap power invariably translates better to the ML level than the light-tower one does - if you're tardy on a ML heater and out in front of a ML breaking ball, your "power" is irrelevant.

 

Average speed?  He is twice the runner Joe Borchard is.

Says who? You? How often do yuo seem him again? I would rather go by what real scouts say. Thank you for your opinion.

[ZoomSlowik]

I brought up ST because that is the only time he has really faced pitchers that are either in or will be in the majors in the near future. Just because he hit well in AA doesn't mean he is going to do so hot against top level guys. The fact that he is hitting about as well as Borchard, who is not a contact hitter, does not impress me. I don't see him as much more than a .280 hitter with 70 walks. I think he's got about a 40% chance of becoming a good hitter that we will miss, and very little chance of becoming a superstar because he lacks pop, blazing speed, and from all acounts is not a stellar defenders. That's my opinion. As the old saying goes,"Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they all stink." As for Borchard, I think there is a better chance that he would be able to do something on the Major League team next year. If he were given the starting job full time in right, I believe he would hit about .240-.260 with 20 homers with decent defense and a good throwing arm. With Reed, I would expect about the same average(altough less likely to reach the low end of that range) and similar defense with less pop, and a few base runners moving up(Hell, Borchard was a college QB). As I said before, I don't think either player will make a major impact in the pros.

[SoxAce]

Here I'll show you first the statement I made earlier about these two. And this is not even counting the 0-4 1K day Borchard had today...

 

Hmmm.... let's see here

 

Reed's all around numbers from AAA:

BA- .276 AB-279 H- 77 2B- 15 3B- 2 HR- 9 RBI- 39 BB- 38 SO- 32

 

Reed's numbers in Tacoma:

BA- .333 SLG- .733 AB-15 H-5 2B- 1 3B- 1 HR- 1 RBI- 3 BB- 2 SO- 0

 

And this is how he's playing with "bad wrist." Imagine this kid fully healthy. Those numbers would increase a good amount and I bet he would still be here.

 

Now let's take a look at a "healthy" Joe Borchard numbers

 

Borchard's all around number's in AAA:

BA- .267 SLG- .487 AB- 273 H- 73 2B- 18 3B- 0 HR- 14 RBI- 46 BB- 25 SO- 61

 

Borchard has the power potential, but that's all I see in him. This team did not need any power guys. We needed a solid contact hitter who can get on base which Reed does/will do. That's why I'll never understand why we gave them Reed. Upside my ass. Reed will be a proven comodity and Borchard has bust written all over him. Reed>Borchard

[southsideirish]

That's your opinion. I don't see how Borchard will be so great in your eyes. You want some stats here I'll show you some in a minute. Yea I'm sure you look at the stats soooo many times..

I have. I can pull them up faster than you if you want:

 

http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=GHAI

[southsideirish]

Here I'll show you first the statement I made earlier about these two. And this is not even counting the 0-4 1K day Borchard had today...

 

Hmmm.... let's see here

 

Reed's all around numbers from AAA:

BA- .276 AB-279 H- 77 2B- 15 3B- 2 HR- 9 RBI- 39 BB- 38 SO- 32

 

Reed's numbers in Tacoma:

BA- .333 SLG- .733 AB-15 H-5 2B- 1 3B- 1 HR- 1 RBI- 3 BB- 2 SO- 0

 

And this is how he's playing with "bad wrist." Imagine this kid fully healthy. Those numbers would increase a good amount and I bet he would still be here.

 

Now let's take a look at a "healthy" Joe Borchard numbers

 

Borchard's all around number's in AAA:

BA- .267 SLG- .487 AB- 273 H- 73 2B- 18 3B- 0 HR- 14 RBI- 46 BB- 25 SO- 61

 

Borchard has the power potential, but that's all I see in him. This team did not need any power guys. We needed a solid contact hitter who can get on base which Reed does/will do. That's why I'll never understand why we gave them Reed. Upside my ass. Reed will be a proven comodity and Borchard has bust written all over him. Reed>Borchard

and whos says Borchard is healthy or was last year or the year before? Just because Reed is complaining about his bad wrists doesn't mean that every player lets their injuries out for everyone to know about them.

[CWSGuy406]

Says who? You? How often do yuo seem him again? I would rather go by what real scouts say. Thank you for your opinion.

Well - give me a blip, something written not backed up by your opinion, that says that Reed is an average runner, and an average fielder? Because I guess me and Brando and SoxAce must be reading/hearing different things then you are...

[greasywheels121]

What's the point of this argument, when we won't know the answer for at least another 3 years?

[SoxAce]

Come back to me in 3 years when we see who is having a better major league career. (that's if Borchard even stays in the majors )

[southsideirish]

Well - give me a blip, something written not backed up by your opinion, that says that Reed is an average runner, and an average fielder?  Because I guess me and Brando and SoxAce must be reading/hearing different things then you are...

I would count on it.

[Rowand44]

That's your opinion. I don't see how Borchard will be so great in your eyes. You want some stats here I'll show you some in a minute. Yea I'm sure you look at the stats soooo many times..

Like I said before I'm really split on this reed vs. borchard argument but I think right now it's kind of crazy to compare these guys to major leaguers. I know you can compare them to who they're similar to but the comparisons kind of are crazy, by that I mean reed has been compared to mark kotsay but he's also been compared to Rafeal Palmeiro, Borch according to people is either russell branyon or adam dunn. Obviously who knows what either of them will turn out to be, there definitely can be an argument made for each player, I think they're both very talented and I hope they both succeed.

[southsideirish]

Come back to me in 3 years when we see who is having a better major league career. (that's if Borchard even stays in the majors )

Oh you can count on it. (thats if Reed even makes it to the majors)

[CWSGuy406]

I would count on it.

What's that supposed to mean? You have nothing to say he's an 'average' runner and an 'average' fielder. I go by stats. I go by people's word firsthand who've seen the kid play before.

 

Stats show he has good SB numbers. So either he gets good jumps, is quick, or is pretty fast. The minor league gurus on this website, before Reed was traded, even said he wasn't a speedburner, but an above average runner who could play all three outfield positions above average.